Shortening Baseboard - Please confirm my plan


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Old 09-11-22, 03:05 PM
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Shortening Baseboard - Please confirm my plan

I am installing additional cabinets in my kitchen and need to shorten my existing baseboard by 2' (it is 12' now - two 6' sections) which I installed over a decade ago.

Wanted to post here before I undertook the task to make sure my plan is sound as my memory is foggy. I do not appear to have any shut off valves for the heater line (1 zone) so I plan to drain the boiler.

My Plan
1 - Shut off water to boiler
2 - Drain boiler (from boiler drain yellow arrow in pic)
3 - Cut copper pipe in crawlspace (underneath)
4 - Pull cover off and cut fins around the 2' mark
5 - Cut slant/fin tube to length
6 - Solder new copper pipe and 90 degree elbow with bleeder valve to baseboard (I am cutting off existing bleeder)
7 - Close boiler drain
8 - Turn water back on
9 - Bleed every baseboard/heater starting from bottom to top to get air out.

Am I missing anything? Doing anything wrong?

Thanks!

Boiler - sorry about the mess

Slant/Fin baseboard - will be cutting at about the point at the bottom of the pic
 
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Old 09-11-22, 10:13 PM
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I do not appear to have any shut off valves for the heater line
The only thing that I didn't see was the solution to the very first issue you identified!
 
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Old 09-11-22, 11:04 PM
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Correct.... you don't have any valves in view to keep the water in the pipes.
Since you only have a one zone system... the system will almost be completely drained.

Added some labeling to your system.
Red is heating water out.... supply.
Blue is heating water in.... return.
Green is cold water supply in to boiler.
Orange is domestic hot water out.
Valve A main water shut off.
Valves B and C are isolation valves to replace fill valve.
Valve D is the drain.


Am I seeing a valve behind the service labels.... purple circle ?
That would be a connection from the cold water to the hot water.
Your system should also have a check valve between the cold water supply and the boiler.

 
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Old 09-12-22, 05:18 AM
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Marc1/PJ - thank you so much for the help!

I have included pics below which show some more detail. The mystery valve is a "mixing" valve which allows you to control how much hot water goes into the domestic hot water. As you can tell from the piping, I have not had luck finding a good plumber. Despite the great online reviews they seem to be hacks when they arrive at my place and do terrible work - last two repairs I had to call them back to fix their shoddy work.

I do not see a check valve at the input of the cold water supply - not really surprised it was never mentioned by the various boiler service techs. Eventually I will have the entire boiler swapped out for hopefully newer tech.

So some updated questions:
1 - Is the original plan ok?
2 - Where would I want to install shut offs?




 
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Old 09-12-22, 09:50 AM
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sp,
Your system is piped adaquetly although a little crude it will work. It looks like you only have one boiler drain so you have to drain from there. You do realize that when you drain your boiler you will not have any hot water while you are working.

If you add a shutoff and a boiler drain above your circulator you can drain everything from there and still have water in your boiler so you can run the boiler for domestic hot water in case you run into a problem with your project you can take your time. This is of couse after you have drained it the first time to install the needed valves.

You mentioned you only have 1 zone which means the water leaves the boiler and returns through the same pipe in one continuous loop that includes all the baseboards. If you had that shutoff and boiler drain in the return line you would not need any vents on the baseboard elements. Since the water leaves the boiler through the supply and is forced back to the return you close the shutoff and open the boiler drain to force the air out that way.

I'm not sure whst was meant by a check valve on the supply water line but none is needed. You are fine with what you have such as it is.

Just my thought, hope this hepls a little.
 
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Old 09-12-22, 10:24 AM
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Spott - Thanks for the reply.

I agree with your plan. That said I do have a couple of questions:

1 - You mentioned I could have hot water (once valve and drain are installed). To confirm, by installing the shut off on the "intake" of the heating system (in pic below) it just shuts that off, not the water supply to the boiler, correct? (have to take a closer look after work)

2 - Any specific shut off and drain or will just a standard 3/4" for each work?

 
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Old 09-12-22, 11:52 AM
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edit - according to their YT vid, this would do the trick. Thoughts?

This company is a division of Nibco (which I think is a good brand); though I believe the part is made in China - but that may be everything nowadays.

Would this work? https://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone...hoCbv0QAvD_BwE

 

Last edited by spta97; 09-12-22 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 09-12-22, 06:37 PM
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sp97,
Any standard shutoff and boiler drain would work including the one you have pictured.

I would check you pipe size again though. I believe it is 1" and not 3/4". Your pipe coming off your boiler relief valve is 3/4" and your return line looks larger. As for your boiler supply line, you have a red FLOCHECK which only allows the water to flow one way so you can install a shutoff on that line but it's not necessary.

If you want to keep your boiler running for hot water it must be kept pressurized so instead of draining water from the bottom of the boiler you will drain the system from the new return line drain by shutting off the ball valve and opening the drain valve making sure the boiler gage still reads whatever pressure you are running at.

As far as your cold water supply goes you can shut it off at the bottom at the red feed valve if you want. As long as the boiler is pressurized water will not feed in anyway. Make sure your t-stat is off or you disconnect a wire to stop the pump from accidentally coming on
 
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Old 09-12-22, 06:56 PM
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You will need two valves..... one in the blue return line and one in the red supply line.
You would shut off B or C to turn off the cold water supply to the boiler.

I'm old school..... when a boiler and a heat coil share the same cold water feed.... a check valve is used to keep boiler water from being siphoned ..... or forced.... back into the domestic water line.
 
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Old 09-13-22, 09:47 AM
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PJ's labeling made things much easier to explain. As was mentioned earlier and Pete pointed out you should have a shutoff on your supply line but if you don't want to, that RED FLOCHECK valve will prevent water from coming back into the boiler from the supply side of the system. It is a check valve.

As Pete mentioned about the check valve in the cold water feed line. That RED FEED valve has a built in check valve to prevent boiler water from syphoning back into your potable water but to Pete's point what you should have and at least in MA it is code to prevent syphoning is a BACKFLO PREVENTER. That is mandatory with or without a hot water coil. They come alone or in combination with the feed valve. The proper location for this is between B & C before the feed valve.
 
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Old 09-13-22, 05:09 PM
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Thank you both for the info!

PJ - Can you explain the need for the valve on the heater inlet and outlet on the boiler? Not disagreeing, just don't understand the reason. Also, when I purge the air from the system, I assume I have to do a few quick purges on the boiler as well from any air that was past the shut off on the line? Finally, what specific check valve would I require?

Spott - You are correct, looking at it again it seems to be a 1" pipe.

Unfortunately they have us back to the office this week so I don't have a lot of time during the week to investigate this - will reply in more detail later this week!
 
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Old 09-13-22, 05:46 PM
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As you use domestic hot water.... the supply pressure to the coil goes down. As it goes down and the boiler pressure goes up.... the boiler water can travel back out of the boiler and into the cold water stream
 
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Old 09-17-22, 05:48 AM
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Edited

Back again....

So here's my updated plan:

1) Purchase 2x Webstone SKU: 50614 1" Sweat PRO-PAL Full Port Ball Valve w/ Drain
2) Install per the pic below.

PJ - Can you help me out with what brand/type of backflow preventer to get for the cold supply line to the boiler? Also, I am struggling to understand the need for the shut off/drain on the domestic heading supply? I thought one shut off on the return would suffice

Thanks again!!!

 
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Old 09-17-22, 09:54 AM
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s,
You only nedd a shutoff/drain on the heating returrn and just a shutoff on the supply if you choose but would not hurt if you already had the combo.

As far as the shutoff/drain on the domestic line I'm confused as to what you mean. Could you please explain.

Below is a sight for your BFP. WATTS is a good brand.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/contr...ow%20preventer
 
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Old 09-17-22, 01:31 PM
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Thanks Spott - have had good experience with Watts and will check them out.

Regarding "As far as the shutoff/drain on the domestic line I'm confused as to what you mean. Could you please explain." by this I meant why do I need a shut off/drain on the hot water line from the boiler to the heating circuit (supply line)? I was envisioning I would still have water on and only shut off the return line so fresh water is coming in and coming out on the shutoff/drain on the return?


Per PJ "You will need two valves..... one in the blue return line and one in the red supply line.
You would shut off B or C to turn off the cold water supply to the boiler."
This seems to support what I am thinking - if I am only shutting off one valve and opening the drain, what is the need for the second shut off/drain?

So basically I am wondering why I cannot just install a shut off/drain on the return and bleed that way?
 
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Old 09-17-22, 02:28 PM
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s,
You should just install the shutoff/drain on the RETURN LINE, and that is alll you need to isolate your system and to bleed.

You can install just a Ball Valve on your supply heating line if you want but in your case is not needed for what you are doing but it would come in handy if you ever had to change your RED FLOCHECK VALVE. You could shut off your supply and return to the system and just drain the water to below where you are working.

If you are going to drain your system it would be good idea to put one in while the system is down but you don't need a drain on the SUPPLY.
 
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Old 09-17-22, 04:44 PM
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Thanks Spott - That makes sense. I have experience sweating pipe but it has been a (long) while so I admit I am apprehensive to install more than what is required. Chances are I will be under a shot-clock to get this done so maybe I'll see how the RETURN shut off/drain goes and then tackle the SUPPLY.

Valves in particular have been tricky for me to get them hot enough without melting internals. I found some YT vids (like THIS one) which may explain some prior issues I had (he instructs to heat the pipe first).

The valve/drain I am planning on buying is NOT lead free - which I assume is ok since this is not a potable water application.

Thanks again for the reply - as part of installing additional cabinets I decided to do it right and shorten the baseboard. Moving the other stuff in the way (electrical outlet and light, security cam, AC vent, drywall) I am a lot more confident in my abilities.
 
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Old 09-18-22, 09:37 AM
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s,
The secret to a good solder joint is to make sure the pipe and fittings are extremely clean and good flux and a torch that will deliver enough heat. As for your solder, it doesn't have to be the lead free since you are only doing heat pipes and not potable water, which will melt easier for you.
 

Last edited by spott; 09-18-22 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 09-18-22, 11:37 AM
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Thanks Spott.

I am very good about cleaning the pipes but good point about the non-lead free solder. Last soldering job (sprinkler pipe and fitting) my neighbor gave it to me (commenting the same about melting easier) but I just went with the regular stuff.

I have only ever had an issue with shut offs (toilet, and pipe).

Will keep you posted!
 

Last edited by spta97; 09-18-22 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 09-24-22, 08:43 AM
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Quick question - should I bother putting a bleeder valve on the baseboard if I plan to bleed at the new valve on the boiler?

All of the baseboards/convection heaters I have currently have bleeder valves so wondering if it is a good idea to keep it consistent?
 
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Old 09-25-22, 01:00 PM
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putting a bleeder valve on the baseboard
Air would rather move up than down. If the baseboard piping has created a loop that is higher than the boiler drain, a bleeder will be much more effective.
 

Last edited by 2john02458; 09-25-22 at 01:00 PM. Reason: wording
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Old 09-25-22, 01:16 PM
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Thanks John - I ordered one (didn't want to reuse the old one).

I figure I will try the bleeding via the new valve/drain on the boiler line but good to have a drain on the heater as well (which is higher than than the boiler room).

I have one additional baseboard to plumb in the basement bathroom and there isn't a great way to put a air purge on it but the new drain will be higher so I may skip this one. We'll see.
 
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Old 09-25-22, 05:26 PM
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If the basement baseboard is low (i.e. the feed is downward and the return is upward) you will not need a bleeder at the baseboard. You might put one at the top of the return pipe.
 
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Old 12-21-22, 10:57 AM
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Hi,

I finally have some time off to address this and have a couple questions before I start:

1) What is the best way to measure how much pipe I have to cut for the ball valves? The total valve measures 3 9/16", the pipe goes in 15/16" on either side. So I assume just subtract the 1 7/8" (15/16" x 2) from the total length which gives me 1 11/16" to cut for the valve?

2) Any tricks for cleaning out or capturing burrs on the bottom vertical pipe from falling in? I am concerned that I might get copper shavings falling into the pipe/circulator pump.

3) PEX for baseboard supply: For rerouting the baseboard supply line to the baseboard are there any concerns with using hydronic PEX? I want to keep that as an option in the event routing to the new (shortened) baseboard causes any weird angles in the crawl space.

I'm totally psyching myself out on this one as I loath plumbing

Thanks!
 
 

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