Method to strike a newly poured porch?


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Old 03-16-07, 07:07 PM
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Method to strike a newly poured porch?

I am going to pour a 7 X 16 foot front porch, two sides will go against the house. It is 7 feet from the front of the porch to the entry door. I am going to fasten semi-ridged expansion joint material to the two wall of the house, and I am concerned as to how I will be able to strike such without the striking board slipping off thus not providing a smooth surface. The two walls I will be fastening the expansion material to are brick. I plan on a slight drop so as to allow water to flow away and off the porch. On a 7 foot porch should I drop approx. 1 inch, or what do you suggest?.

Any ideas on my concerns are MOST WELCOME.

Thanks,

Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-16-07, 08:30 PM
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If it is a covered porch and you are very confident of your screeding ability, you may be able to get by on 1 inch of slope. However, it would be much better to figure 1/4 inch per foot (1 3/4" in 7 feet).
To strike it off, first pour the concrete. Then take your hand float and float (smooth out) the concrete immediately against the expansion joint material. Float it at the same level as the expansion joint material. This will give you a smooth surface to screed from and also fill in the holes against the wall that would be hard to fill later.
You don't need to actually drag the screed board on top of the expansion joint material. Just keep that end of the screed riding on the smoothed concrete. It is easy to do with only a 7 foot long board, especially when the other end is riding on the form. You just hold up on the expansion end of the board so that it doesn't dig in.
You will have some very minor humps and dips, but that's what the bullfloat is for: flattening and smoothing them out. Good luck.

Pecos (also Indy)
 
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Old 03-18-07, 05:39 PM
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Smile

Thank You, good info, FOR SURE.

Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-21-07, 07:52 PM
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I plan on pouring the front porch in the next week to 10 days, and wonder what final surface do I want? I don't want it real smooth as I don't want it to be slick when wet.

What broom should I use, and should I brush it in the direction I will be walking, or at right angle?

Sorry to be so lacking of info.

Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-22-07, 04:02 AM
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It will be a lot easier to broom it from the brick to the front form. It doesn't really matter that much which way you broom as far as traction is concerned. You can buy a special concrete finishing broom, or you can use a soft bristled push broom.
Make sure the concrete has set sufficiently before you brush it. You don't want slurry that sticks to the bristles. When it's right, you may end up with some little crumbs of concrete that roll up, but just brush those off the next day.
To get right up against the wall, turn the broom on end and run it along the expansion joint. Then lay it flat and pull the brush towards the form.
 
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Old 03-22-07, 07:09 AM
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Ok, I fully understand. There is a concrete step at the door, approx. 18" X 48" that will remain, so do I WRAP expansion material around the three sides of it just like I will do on the two brick walls?

Thank You,


Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-22-07, 12:49 PM
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Yes. Place expansion joint btween any rigid structure and the fresh concrete. If you're pouring around the step, expect a crack to form off of each corner of the step. These are re-entrant corners and will almost certainly crack because of concrete shrinkage. To minimize cracking and separation, place a couple of 2 or 3 foot pieces of 1/2 inch rebar in the concrete at these two corners. Place them on a diagonal, not pointing at the corner of the step, but so the corner of the step points to the midpoint of the rebar. Hard to explain. Anyway, place one piece about an inch out from the step corner, and the next piece about 6 inches farther out from the corner.
 
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Old 03-22-07, 04:07 PM
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Smile

Got ya, so it's like the rebar is a TEEDER TOTTER BOARD, if the corner of the step were to be the pivot point, so to speak. Of course the rebar won't touch the corner of the step.

Thank You, AGAIN.......Indy person.



Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-22-07, 07:14 PM
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I'm about to embark on a very similar project (and I'm also from Indy!). I'm still in the planning stages, but I was wondering where you got the expansion material, what type, and any other names for it. I looked at Lowe's and they didn't have any.

I'll probably start a new thread soon for advice on the whole plan, but I'm wondering what the minimum thickness is for me to put a 'cap' on an existing concrete landing. This little section (2' x 6') doesn't get any traffic on it, and is in between the cinder block house and a flight of concrete stairs. Of course, I can do whatever is necessary to prepare the existing surface, which isn't cracked.



Tim (in Indy)
 
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Old 03-22-07, 07:29 PM
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Menards carries foam expansion joint. They may also have the rigid black fiber expansion as well. I haven't used that for years though. I'm very surprised Lowes doesn't. It would be by the concrete supplies.
The minimum thickness for a cap would be about 2 inches. Good luck.
 
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Old 03-27-07, 06:58 PM
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Ok, tomorrow I will set my forms, but have a couple questions.

I will pouring it over roofing paper, since the present slab is uneven, and has a crack and drop. It looks as though it will be between 3"-5" thick because of the crack and the part that has dropped. I have rerouted the down spout thus correcting the problem. I will pour over the slab and then down the front and one side thus making a skirt or lip so to speak.

Do I want the new concrete to touch the ground, or do I form off the bottom so that the skirt is hanging an inch or so above the ground once I remove the bottom form?

Is an overhang of 2"-3", ok? The skirt will be approx. 8" thick. Is any rebar needed to help in holding the skirt-lip from breaking off?

Thank You, ONCE AGAIN.


Dale
Indy
 
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Old 03-28-07, 02:46 AM
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If it's not an elevated porch, the concrete can touch the ground if you want. Just consider that if the ground heaves with frost, it could affect the new concrete cap. Also, consider that by code your step(s) cannot be taller than 8". Will adding that much concrete to the porch put you over that height?
2-3 inches is fine for the lip. Put rebar in it in an "L" shape, bending down into the lip (face of the porch). It would also be a good idea to put a strand or two horizontally around the perimeter of the slab, as well as some more throughout the slab.
Good luck. It doesn't look like the weather is cooperating for you though.
 
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Old 03-28-07, 06:21 AM
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Yep, the weather does matter, but I can wait it out. Indy is just a big ole corn field with a race track in the middle. You're up there where all the MONEY is, right??? Nice town Noblesville, FOR SURE. We live just a mile or so east of I-465 & I-69 near the water.

The step is now about 4", so I will be in the 8" range, and I can always add a step down, splitting the difference to the walk if needed. I will see how it feels when finished.

Someone told me to take a gallon of diesel fuel and soak a rag, then wet my forms so that they separate ok.

The porch is on the ground, and covered by a roof. I think I will keep the lip from touching the ground by an inch or so.

I understand all you have told me and it makes good sense. YOU DID GOOD....

Thanks,

Dale
Indy,

Never boast, rarely rest
 
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Old 03-29-07, 06:29 PM
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Ok, to recap this project.

It is a covered front porch 7' X 16'. It sits on the ground, and the present slab is cracked about in the center of the 16' width. The crack runs from the house to the edge of the slab 7'.

Today I formed it off, and built in a slope of 1-1/4" over the 7' distance. In the corner where the two walls meet the new slab will be 2-1/2" thick, and since the present slab has settled at the opposite end of the 16' run the new slab will be as much as 8" thick, I have corrected the downspout problem that caused this. This will mean the step up from the walk will be 9 inches high. I could lower my forms so as the corner would be just 1-1/2" thick therefore the step up would be 8 inches, but am concerned that only 1-1/2" thick is pushing it. It would be 1-1/2" but out the 7 feet to the front edge it would be nearly 5" thick.

Should I stay where I am now and then pour a 4-1/2" step later, or should I lower my form an inch so as to have a 8" step?

Thank You,



Dale
Indy
 
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Old 04-03-07, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Smith Brother
Yep, the weather does matter, but I can wait it out. Indy is just a big ole corn field with a race track in the middle. You're up there where all the MONEY is, right??? Nice town Noblesville, FOR SURE. We live just a mile or so east of I-465 & I-69 near the water.
Last time I checked, there was quite bit of money out at Geist too!


The thing that I'm curious about is this: this slab you are pouring over has dropped something like 5" on one side. I know you said you rerouted a downspout, but are you sure the slab isn't going to drop anymore?

Since part of my project includes capping over existing cement, I'm curious about how you have cleaned/prepped the old concrete and whether you are applying any concrete adhesive.

I'm also wondering how much Smith Brother would charge to help me finish the slab if I do all the prep and order the concrete, or if he could lend me a skilled laborer?

I'm near 71st & Keystone.
 
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Old 04-03-07, 03:06 PM
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Tim, the house we are flipping is basically at 71st. & Johnson road. 6861 Marmont Ct. That is 71st east to Johnson road which is a block before you get to Shadeland, then south on Johnson road to the first street then left or east on Marmont Ct. to the end of the street which ends in our drive. Feel free to holler with me and stop by and check out the house and porch.

The present porch hasn't settled 5 inches, actully more like 2-1/2" to 3". It was poured with a serious slope, and since I am taking a lot of such out of the new pouring it sounds worse than it is. The slab has not moved in several years according to a neighbor, I know for sure it hasn't moved in the past year from pictures I have seen.

I am a hands on type fellow, and have no fear of pouring this job. I have learned a lot from Pecos on this site, and my brothers son owns a concrete business in Normal, Il, and he agreeds with Pecos on the steps to get this job done. I haven't poured yet as I am waiting on my son to help, it ain't a one man job. I am going to rent a powered cement buggy to move the product from the street to the porch as my drive will not support the weight of the concrete truck. I am going to lay down roofing paper over the present slab so that the new slab DOESN'T adhere to the old concrete. Pecos says such will aid in preventing the crack to transfer through to the new pouring.

I don't have time to normally help others, but give me a shout, and I will do what I can to be of help. Free, I wouldn't take money for something like this.

Cell #603-2015

I'm NOT one of the RICH Geist folks. I moved in the area before they were allowed to build on the water. I'm at Fall Creek, and Mudcreek Rd.

Dale Smith
 
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Old 04-04-07, 12:19 PM
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My Project

Dale - thanks for the offer, but believe me, I know what a rare commodity time can be. I'm also a hands on kinda guy--I try to do whatever I can myself. I've done a few very small concrete projects, but I know I lack the artistic skill to finish a job of this size on my own. I figured I can research the appropriate plans, do the prep work, and build the forms, but when it comes to striking and finishing this job, I'll need to pay someone who knows what they are doing. A general contractor who lives down the street said he would help me, but I know he's hard to pin down (he did my roof last year). I had thought about approaching some workers on a job site somewhere and offering someone a side job for cash. First, I just want to make sure my plans are solid.

I guess I'll go ahead and inquire about my plan in this thread since it is very similar to your project and we already have the Indy guys in one place...

This is for a rental property (a duplex where I currently live in the other half). I want to pour a 17.5' by 5' (~ 8" thick) sidewalk over an existing sidewalk and tie this in with a landing that's between the house and some concrete stairs. I have created a Photobucket folder with several pics and the plan sketch here:

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/TiminIndy/

The existing concrete has been there since `48. The sidewalk is very crumbled in places, but it doesn't have cracks or signs of settling or heaving. It puddles very badly because it sits below the level of the lawn. My thought was that I could just pour over this considering that I plan make it around 8" thick.

The tricky part is the landing, which is basically just a convenient place for the tenants to keep their trash cans. It is bordered by the house on one side (concrete block with stucco) and concrete block walls that support the stairs on 2 sides. I want to cap this and the bottom step with about 2" of new concrete to make a continuous 'L' shape that drains away from the house and onto the lawn (3" decreasing to 2"). I figured I don't want to attach it to the house or walls, so I would need to use the expansion material, but I also want to make the joint water tight so water doesn't get down there and so nothing grows there.

I figured I would need crack control joints where the cap over the landing and the cap over the bottom step meets the thick slab, as well as the diagonal rebar method Pecos gave us for around the corners of the steps. I'll also need to determine how much additional reinforcement is needed throughout (rebar, fiber mesh, both?) I plan to clean the area with a power sprayer, and I need to know if I should use a concrete adhesive where I'm doing the thin cap. If it will help, I can order a higher grade or fiber reinforced concrete.

Finally, regarding the railroad tie retaining wall in the picture: I also plan to replace this, so I guess I should do that first. I had considered a stone or concrete wall there instead, but I think it will be a lot cheaper and easier to just put new RR ties, and that will look fine for the area. I thought I would just line the RR ties with tar paper so the concrete doesn't attach to it, or do I need expansion material there so I have an edge to screed off of? The single level of RR ties on the lawn side will be removed so the sidewalk meets the lawn.

In case the link to Photobucket didn't work, here's the URL:

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w231/TiminIndy/
 
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Old 04-04-07, 03:56 PM
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Smile

Tim, a couple thoughts. Send a private message to Pecos, I believe he is in the concrete business in Noblesville. If he can't help then contact Irving materials, IMI and ask for a couple names of small contractors.

I looked over your photo's and it looks workable.

I wish you well,



Dale
Indy

P.S. I haven't seen him post in a few days, maybe he is on spring break along the beach. One of the RICH concrete guys, hehehe.
 
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Old 04-05-07, 06:53 AM
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Thanks again, Dale.

I had called a few concrete companies for pricing on the concrete. I hate to go with the guys who were at the top of the price fixing thing, but IMI was a little cheaper. 2.5 yds of 3,000 psi w/ fiber will be $295 delivered.

Last year, I got a couple bids from some small contractors to do all the sidewalks on both sides of the double. Due to other expenses I was thinking I would just get this half of the project done now. (Just had to buy a new furnace, kitchen remodel underway, and Hardi Plank siding on the upper half.) The other side involves a lot more excavation and forms, etc... I added a pic of the full plan in the Photobucket folder. Now that I'm looking at the cost of doing just this, I'm thinking about just getting the whole thing done by a contractor. I have a line of credit available, but I was trying not to use it. The whole thing will add a hell of a lot of curb appeal (rental value). Another reason I was going to wait on my side is if I wait to do it until after I move in to the next house, it will be tax deductible as well. If I find the right property, I hope to buy another fixer-upper to move into in the fall.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread. I think I will go ahead and start a new thread for my project since I haven't got any feedback on the plans from anyone here.
 
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Old 04-05-07, 07:34 AM
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Yep, I didn't like the price fixing thing either. At least they got caught and some jail time, and fines.

No problem on jumping in on this topic, but might be wise to go alone to get some answers though.

Sounds like you and I are somewhat alike. I believe this country needs more dirty hands and less dirty minds, and I love to get down and dirty. I will try anything, but ask lots of questions ahead of time. FUN IS GOOD.


Dale
Indy
 
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Old 04-05-07, 11:10 AM
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Dale, as a matter of fact I AM in Florida right now. How did you know? It's the kids' spring break and for the first time in about 7 years, we took a vacation.
When you described your location, I realized I did a job years ago that's right next to you. It is the driveway at the corner of Johnson and whatever the stop sign is just south of 71st St. It is a European fan patterned concrete circle drive.
Tim, looking at the photos I think it's a good idea to hire this job out. It would be too hard for someone to describe to you all the necessary steps involved.

Pecos
 
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Old 04-05-07, 11:21 AM
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Pecos-

Thanks! The more I look at it, the more I was thinking the same thing. I guess I'll ask someone for a bid on the small project (Phase 1). I'd still like to know if the plans I described are on track or not so I'll know if a prospective contractor's plans are appropriate.

Enjoy your vacation!
 
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Old 04-05-07, 11:31 AM
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I think I found the job down the street from Dale's:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qnctvt7tw5rm&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6605408&encType=1




I can't tell which property is Dale's, but you can't see the porch anyhow since the view is from the south:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qnd1bm7tw8rj&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6605408&sp=Point.qnd1bg7tw8rj_6861%20Marmont%20Ct%2C%20Indianapolis%2C%20IN%2046220-4234%2C%20United%20States___~Point.qnd1bg7tw8rj_6861%20Marmont%20Ct%2C%20Indianapolis%2C%20IN%2046220-4234%2C%20United%20States___&encType=1
 
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Old 04-11-07, 02:40 PM
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Thumbs up

Pecos, we drove by the large circle drive you did in our area, and it LOOKS GOOD, YOU DID GOOD. You knew that though. A cute bright yellow VW was parked on it, my wife loves them there bugs.

Dale
Indy
 
 

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