Outside Wall: 1/2 wood siding, 1/2 stone veneer disaster... ideas?
#1
09-01-11, 07:40 PM
Outside Wall: 1/2 wood siding, 1/2 stone veneer disaster... ideas?
Hi, first this: 
I need ideas...
Short version: what do I do with a masonry sill that is not slanted down enough to keep water from wicking back into the building?
Long version:
About 20 years ago a garage was added to my house. The bottom 4' is really nice stone veneer, matches the house. There is a concrete sill on top [which is nearly horizontal = bad]. resting on that is a piece of aluminum flashing, just L-shaped, sticks out about 1½ inches from the wall and rests on the concrete sill. Painted cove molding pressing on the flashing, and nailed through the flashing and into sheets of vertical wood sheet-siding which then goes up to the soffit. I never thought much about it, the cove molding was caulked very well on top, caulk filling the 8"-on-center grooves in the sheet siding.
This was all fine and good until I realized that the door and brick molding had rotted. I pull that off and find that the plywood behind the masonry is completely black and rotted. (I never noticed from the inside, all you can see through the studs is foil faced foam board.) Water has been seeping behind my stonework apparently for years, and obviously the nearly-horizontal sill is the culprit. I'm going to shore up everything I can to keep the masonry from falling. What can I do to prevent water from getting behind the sill? The flashing didn't matter because it doesn't cover even half of the concrete sill, and with any wind or snow, water can easily zip right under that flashing... that's obvious, now.
Unfortunately there are no hairline cracks between the sill and the stone, or I'd ever-so-gently try to bump the sill off and seat it at a decent angle. Being that the strength of the stone veneer is compromised I'm afraid to pound or pry anything.
Another option would be to install vinyl siding over the wood siding, putting a big flashing under it and basically cover the sill entirely by a properly sloped flashing. Problem with this is the cost of the siding, and the need to then do the house and the other half of the garage to match.
Other possibility- take an inch or so off the bottom of the wood siding and slide a bigger flashing under it, and slope it properly off the sill. (figuring out what to do with the airspace between the flashing and the sill).
I just went out and took a few photos. Your ideas are very much appreciated.
\
- soffit
|
|
|
| wood siding
|
\ concrete sill that I wish was sloped this much!
]
]stone veneer
]
]
elsewhere on house (this is what the setup looked like before I tore it apart)
I need ideas...
Short version: what do I do with a masonry sill that is not slanted down enough to keep water from wicking back into the building?
Long version:
About 20 years ago a garage was added to my house. The bottom 4' is really nice stone veneer, matches the house. There is a concrete sill on top [which is nearly horizontal = bad]. resting on that is a piece of aluminum flashing, just L-shaped, sticks out about 1½ inches from the wall and rests on the concrete sill. Painted cove molding pressing on the flashing, and nailed through the flashing and into sheets of vertical wood sheet-siding which then goes up to the soffit. I never thought much about it, the cove molding was caulked very well on top, caulk filling the 8"-on-center grooves in the sheet siding.
This was all fine and good until I realized that the door and brick molding had rotted. I pull that off and find that the plywood behind the masonry is completely black and rotted. (I never noticed from the inside, all you can see through the studs is foil faced foam board.) Water has been seeping behind my stonework apparently for years, and obviously the nearly-horizontal sill is the culprit. I'm going to shore up everything I can to keep the masonry from falling. What can I do to prevent water from getting behind the sill? The flashing didn't matter because it doesn't cover even half of the concrete sill, and with any wind or snow, water can easily zip right under that flashing... that's obvious, now.
Unfortunately there are no hairline cracks between the sill and the stone, or I'd ever-so-gently try to bump the sill off and seat it at a decent angle. Being that the strength of the stone veneer is compromised I'm afraid to pound or pry anything.
Another option would be to install vinyl siding over the wood siding, putting a big flashing under it and basically cover the sill entirely by a properly sloped flashing. Problem with this is the cost of the siding, and the need to then do the house and the other half of the garage to match.
Other possibility- take an inch or so off the bottom of the wood siding and slide a bigger flashing under it, and slope it properly off the sill. (figuring out what to do with the airspace between the flashing and the sill).
I just went out and took a few photos. Your ideas are very much appreciated.
\
- soffit
|
|
|
| wood siding
|
\ concrete sill that I wish was sloped this much!
]
]stone veneer
]
]
elsewhere on house (this is what the setup looked like before I tore it apart)
Last edited by limetwist; 09-01-11 at 07:46 PM. Reason: added photos
#2
09-02-11, 04:52 AM
Group Moderator
Your cove molding nails penetrating the flashing might also be suspect unless they are only going into the T1-11 siding.
I am not sure how well stone veneer is attach since have never removed it, but I do know it is just back buttered with mortar/thinset so it might not be too bad. If you want to remove it cut a relief cut with a diamond blade on an angle grinder underneath the sill to free it from the rest of the stone. Then tap it up with a hammer and a 2x to protect the sill from damage.
Your vinyl siding is a good option if you do not want to mess with the stone. Get some flashing bent that will cover the entire top of the sill and just hang over the edge.
If you don't want the added cost of the siding, you might be able to pull the bottom of the wood siding out far enough and slip the larger flashing behind it. Hold it in place with silicone on the stone sill. This may be the lowest/easiest cost option. All you would need is a little paint.
I am not sure how well stone veneer is attach since have never removed it, but I do know it is just back buttered with mortar/thinset so it might not be too bad. If you want to remove it cut a relief cut with a diamond blade on an angle grinder underneath the sill to free it from the rest of the stone. Then tap it up with a hammer and a 2x to protect the sill from damage.
Your vinyl siding is a good option if you do not want to mess with the stone. Get some flashing bent that will cover the entire top of the sill and just hang over the edge.
If you don't want the added cost of the siding, you might be able to pull the bottom of the wood siding out far enough and slip the larger flashing behind it. Hold it in place with silicone on the stone sill. This may be the lowest/easiest cost option. All you would need is a little paint.
#3
09-02-11, 05:25 AM
Group Moderator
Since a bag of mortar mix is about $5, I would definitely remove the capstone and mortar it in at the correct angle. The relief cut on bottom, and at joints will help (rent a saw) then have someone hold a 2x4 on the bottom edge and whack it upward with a sledge hammer. Once it's off, you will likely want to cut/chip a little off the bottom edge/back side so that when the stone is tipped, the top edge/back side will be tighter to the wall. Since new flashing is about $5 each, replace the flashing since it has holes in it from the cove moulding. I'd probably use gutter apron, turned upside down. Push the new flashing down into a bed of sealant. Install any kind of siding on top, keep it up about 3/8" from the flashing and DON'T put any trim at the bottom to cover the gap!
#4
09-02-11, 11:07 AM
Thanks guys, my dad emailed this morning with the same conclusion (he was here yesterday during "the great uncovering"
I believe he has to tool that can score the mortar under the sill. Does anyone know what angle it should be sitting at? At some point I should do all of them. Most are at more of an angle than this one, but they aren't at steep angles.
Ironhand, you are right, the cove molding was nailed through the flashing with no caulk around the nails.
Xsleeper, With no trim at the bottom of the wood siding, do you just paint the open end? What's the best way to make it look decent? Or is cutting it perfectly straight the big key? :::cringe:::
I guess I'll begin by trying to get the nails out of the bottom of the siding so we can saw the edge off to make room for the angled sill, and slide some new flashing up there.
Any other thoughts before we tackle this? Thanks everyone.
I believe he has to tool that can score the mortar under the sill. Does anyone know what angle it should be sitting at? At some point I should do all of them. Most are at more of an angle than this one, but they aren't at steep angles.
Ironhand, you are right, the cove molding was nailed through the flashing with no caulk around the nails.
Xsleeper, With no trim at the bottom of the wood siding, do you just paint the open end? What's the best way to make it look decent? Or is cutting it perfectly straight the big key? :::cringe:::
I guess I'll begin by trying to get the nails out of the bottom of the siding so we can saw the edge off to make room for the angled sill, and slide some new flashing up there.
Any other thoughts before we tackle this? Thanks everyone.
#5
09-02-11, 11:54 AM
I would go for 5 degrees for the slant. I don't know how the others feel about that. As for a trim to dress it up, what about nailing the trim to the siding with short nails so it doesn't penetrate through. And leave a gap between the bottom of the trim and the flashing below so it won't wick up any water and allow water that gets behind drain out. I'd prepaint all the way around the trim before putting it on.
#7
09-02-11, 12:04 PM
If you don't have a table saw, clamp a straight piece of wood to the siding [or anything being cut] and use it as a fence for your saw. You'll get a perfectly cut line every time 
I'm not fond of having a molding like that at the bottom of the siding - caulk and paint is the only thing that will keep water from getting behind the molding.
I'm not fond of having a molding like that at the bottom of the siding - caulk and paint is the only thing that will keep water from getting behind the molding.
#8
09-02-11, 12:12 PM
I'm really hoping we won't have to remove all the siding, so I'll be setting the blade and cutting it on-house. I'd love to use my table saw!
Last edited by limetwist; 09-02-11 at 12:37 PM.
#10
09-02-11, 03:16 PM
Group Moderator
Well, getting the cap stones on there perfectly straight is the first step. They can't be waving up and down they all need to be perfectly level. (a mason's line will help as a guide) I would set them at no less than a 7° angle.
If you cut new siding, Marksr is right about clamping a guide onto the it to get a straight cut with your skilsaw. You would use the factory end where ever possible, and if you field cut anything you would want to prime with oil based primer (the quick drying kind), then paint, also painting the bottom 4" or so on the back side.
Usually with that kind of siding there is trim at the TOP, so you could snap a line on the tar paper, line all your bottom edges up, and if there is a small gap on top it wouldn't matter because of the usual trim board that covers the gap on top.
Adding a moulding on the bottom catches water, is a maintenance problem, and isn't a professional appearance from an aesthetic point of view. Most mfg's suggest leaving an air space below their siding (at flashings and drip caps) to promote drying, which is why you wouldn't caulk that gap either. Prepainting and backpriming (followed by back-PAINTING) is always good advice, IMO. Pro's won't usually do it but its because it takes more time and would cost you/them more.
If you cut new siding, Marksr is right about clamping a guide onto the it to get a straight cut with your skilsaw. You would use the factory end where ever possible, and if you field cut anything you would want to prime with oil based primer (the quick drying kind), then paint, also painting the bottom 4" or so on the back side.
Usually with that kind of siding there is trim at the TOP, so you could snap a line on the tar paper, line all your bottom edges up, and if there is a small gap on top it wouldn't matter because of the usual trim board that covers the gap on top.
Adding a moulding on the bottom catches water, is a maintenance problem, and isn't a professional appearance from an aesthetic point of view. Most mfg's suggest leaving an air space below their siding (at flashings and drip caps) to promote drying, which is why you wouldn't caulk that gap either. Prepainting and backpriming (followed by back-PAINTING) is always good advice, IMO. Pro's won't usually do it but its because it takes more time and would cost you/them more.
