Need Advice Staining Concrete Porch Floor

Reply

  #1  
Old 03-06-13, 08:36 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 251
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Need Advice Staining Concrete Porch Floor

Once the snow melts and the outside temperature warms up one of my first projects is to re-stain the outdoor porch cement floor.

A few years ago at the recommendation of a local Benjamin Moore store I coated the concrete front porch floor with a product made by PPG called PermaCrete Masonry Coating Color Seal WB Concrete Stain. After pressure washing the floor this product was applied with a roller (brush around the edges) on a previously unpainted bare 35 year old concrete floor.

To make a long story short, the stain which looked more like paint, started to peel, flake off and lift within 45-60 days.

The area is not too big ( 5' x 20') but I wanted redo it with a product that will last.

In doing some research in this site's archives as well as the internet it seems that concrete acid stain is probably the right product to use when I redo it.

I think the PPG product may have failed because the concrete surface was too smooth and its waterbased.

I have a few questions for anyone that has experience staining concrete.


1. Does using acid based stain make sense?

2. Are there any special precautions I should be aware of?

3. I know I need to clean off all the current coating and was thinking of renting or buying a handheld concrete grinder (like a Bosch 1773AK) to remove the old coating as well as to clean, rough up and open the pores in the concrete so the stain will penetrate properly.

Does this approach make sense?

4. There are a few pock marks in the floor right where the front step meets the floor and I wonder what the best way would be to fill those before staining? I read someplace that a mixture of the grinding dust and epoxy would work well?


I would appreciate any comments and suggestions.

Dom
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-06-13, 10:22 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA - N.E.Tn
Posts: 46,520
Received 168 Votes on 149 Posts
A full body color concrete stain is different from an acid stain. An acid stain works best on new concrete. What it does is chemically change the color of the different components of the concrete. You then need to apply a clear sealer over the acid stain.

What I have used and had good success with is H&C concrete stain which is sold at SWP stores. It too needs to be applied to bare concrete. Like most concrete coatings, the concrete needs to be clean and DRY before application. It recoats well as the solvent in the stain remelts the previous coat giving it a good bond. Super slick concrete should be washed with muratic acid as part of the prep. That opens up the pores so the concrete can accept the coating rather than it just laying on top.

I'd pressure wash it first and then reevaluate what else [if anything] needs to be done before applying any stain.
 
  #3  
Old 03-06-13, 11:38 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 251
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
marksr,

I checked the H&C website and it looks like the H&C product you are suggesting is called "Concrete Stain Solid Color Water-Based." Is that correct?

Why do you think the PPG water based stain I applied is lifting, flaking and peeling? I applied it when the weather was warn and the surface was clean and dry.

Could it be because I did not etch it?
 
  #4  
Old 03-06-13, 03:46 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA - N.E.Tn
Posts: 46,520
Received 168 Votes on 149 Posts
I've been retired for awhile so they might have changed the H&C formula. It used to be xylene based.

The previous stain might have failed because the concrete wasn't etched although often old concrete is degraded just enough to erase the need for etching. Is it possible the previous owner applied a clear sealer to the slab?
 
  #5  
Old 03-06-13, 04:36 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 251
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes, its possible the person that built the house put a clear sealer on. That plus the fact I didn't do anything other than pressure wash the floor may be the reason the stain didn't adhere very well.

I'm willing to do it over. But this time, I want to make sure the floor is prepared properly even if I have to over prepare if that's at all possible.

I think the advice I originally received from the Benjamin Moore dealer where I purchased the PPG product was not correct. He said to just make sure there was no grease, oil or obvious stains and pressure wash it.

Since I have a local Sherwin Williams store nearby where the people seem to really know what they are doing, and they carry H&C products, I'll talk with them.

Any other comments are welcome so I can learn as much about what to do and what not to do regarding staining concrete.

Thank you
 
  #6  
Old 03-07-13, 11:32 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,396
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've done a lot of acid staining and some staining with the other products mentioned. The main difference between acid stain and the other products is that they are coatings, whereas acid stain is not. It's truly a penetrating stain. Acid stain is made up of metallic salts dissolved in an acid solution. It penetrates into the surface where the salts chemically react with the free lime in the concrete and actually turn it a different color. Acid stain contains no pigments, the color all comes from the chemical reaction inside the cement paste. Therefore, it cannot peel off. Ever. Unless the actual concrete surface delaminates.
In my opinion, acid stain is a far superior product in terms of longevity.
In addition, acid stain provides a mottled, natural appearance whereas pigmented stains give you a solid color that looks like paint.
Acid stain is meant for cured concrete, no matter its age. Instead of grinding the old stain off, I'd use a chemical stripper and remove it that way. A small grinder will leave swirl marks and expose the aggregate just under the cement paste, which will likely yield an ugly, somewhat bumpy floor.
Don't fill the pock marks with cement and epoxy. If you do, they will not take the acid stain because epoxy will repel it. It has to be able to penetrate to chemically react. No matter what you fill them with, they will be a different color once the floor is acid stained because you are creating a chemical reaction with completely different substances (concrete and patch material).
Before you begin, make sure to read up A LOT on the process. Good luck.
 
  #7  
Old 03-07-13, 08:01 PM
BridgeMan45's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,196
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
As mentioned by others, water-based stains are not really stains, but rather simply coatings. I've given up on them long ago, as the ones I've used consistently had adhesion problems, both on wood and concrete surfaces.
 
  #8  
Old 03-10-13, 05:55 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 251
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks everyone for your input about staining concrete.

Based on what you have said and some additional research I've done here are some conclusions I think I'm arriving at:

1. While acid staining may be the best in terms of longevity and not peeling or flaking like paint, but are only a very limited number of colors offered that won't work for us.

2. I should have chemically stripped my porch floor and etched it before applying the PPG product I used.

3. marksr, a solvent based solid color stain is in fact available from H&C and I will probably seriously consider using it since it offers a wide choice of colors that will work for us


Any other thoughts or comments are welcome.

Thank you

Dom
 
  #9  
Old 03-11-13, 06:07 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA - N.E.Tn
Posts: 46,520
Received 168 Votes on 149 Posts
The xylene based H&C stain does have a strong odor but it shouldn't be too bad using it on a porch floor with ventilation on 3 sides. It can get a little potent in a garage with walls on 3 sides.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description: