Advice on loose bricks in front steps


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Old 08-06-14, 06:11 PM
J
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Advice on loose bricks in front steps

Hello everybody,

I had some bricks come loose on my front steps.
Most of the problem is with the first step, the top brick (4th up from the foundation slab) of which is about 1 brick above the walkway.

The second picture shows most of this top layer of brick removed from the first step.
The mortar these bricks were resting on had crumbled pretty badly.
Supporting this top row of steps is a layer of cinder blocks resting on their sides. (see picture 4)
Between the last full row of cinder blocks and the riser for the first step there was about a 4 inch gap which would not accommodate a full cinder block. So this gap had very thin slivers of concrete (perhaps 2 inch wide pieces chopped from a cinder block) surrounded by fill (or perhaps decayed mortar). This is best seen in picture 4.

The mortar holding the third row of brick in the riser of the first step was loose so I removed that also. Now I am left with most of the second and first rows of brick resting on the concrete slab foundation (see picture 4, where the first row of walkway pavers and some fill underneath has been removed). These remaining two rows appear fairly solid, although they sound hollow when tapped and I suspect if I fully removed the fill from behind and front of them they might turn out to be loose also.

My question now is have I gotten down to a good enough base for rebuilding or should I continue to the bottom?
I am tempted to clean out the fill and the cinder block bits from the ~4 inch gap and replace with a row of solid 4x8x16 concrete blocks, if they will fit. Was it this fill that degraded the old mortar, or was it the wrong type of mortar, or does that front step just get too wet?

Sorry for all the text and thanks in advance for any advice.

John
 
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Old 08-06-14, 07:02 PM
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The pictures indicate your mortar joints could have failed because of water intrusion, combined with freeze-thaw cycles during the winter seasons. And made worse if any de-icing agents were applied to the affected area to aid in melting snow and ice. I'd remove any/all bricks that are loose or close to loose, and avoid using large masses of mortar to fill any voids. Applying a good breathable sealer to the finished repair would help in preventing (or at least slowing-down) future damage.

I'd suggest you don't wait too long to repair those hand railings, either.
 
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Old 08-07-14, 06:18 AM
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Thanks for replying.

I guess I was unsure whether it was acceptable to rebuild on the remaining bricks assuming they were were solid in place because the mortar was indeed good, or simply because they were packed in by fill on both sides.

I think I will remove the fill in the 4" gap and replace with a row of solid 4x8x16 concrete block.
When I take the fill out I will find out how solid the remaining bricks really are.

A follow-on question relates to the bricks themselves. I am guessing these are clay bricks.
Home Depot sells red concrete bricks of the same size. If I don't have enough bricks due to some breaking can I substitute in these concrete bricks below grade where they won't be seen?
Is there a problem with different expansion rates or anything else?

Also I plan to use Quikrete Mason Mix Type S mortar.

PS The handrails were detached so I could replace the trim at the bottom of the porch posts.
That job is now complete and the rails reattached and all painted.
 
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Old 08-07-14, 09:35 AM
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I suspect vitrified clay and concrete have slightly different rates of thermal expansion, but I doubt it's enough to cause significant problems when using the 2 products in contact with each other. The difference in thermal expansion between steel (0.0000065) and concrete (0.0000055) has to be much larger, but still not large enough to prevent using them together. Such as the thousands of concrete bridge decks cast on steel girder bridges in the world. Or even millions of concrete structures internally reinforced with steel rebar.
 
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Old 08-11-14, 08:25 AM
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I went ahead and removed the gravel/dirt fill from both sides of the brick on the riser of the first step.
The bricks were loose in places so I removed them all down to the bare slab.

Now I am ready to relay these 3 rows of brick.
If I mostly fill the 4" gap with the 4" solid concrete blocks that should provide a sturdy base for the bricks that form the tread of the first step to rest on. My question now is do I need to fill the irregular 0.5" inch vertical gap between the row of blocks and the bricks forming the riser of the first step?
There will be gravel packed in front of the step riser acting as the base for the pavers on the walkway and I wonder will the 3 rows of brick be strong enough without fill on the inside to resist this small pressure?
Does the fill contribute to the mortar decaying and is there something I should put between the fill and the brick/mortar?

Thanks,
John
 
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Old 08-15-14, 08:38 AM
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So I have laid 3 rows of brick.

I am wondering how important the jointing/striking step is.
It was late last night when I was finishing and I didn't do all the vertical joints properly. Is this critical, especially as these 3 rows will be below grade?
Will water get in and eat away the mortar over time?
Is there anything I can do to fix at this stage?
 
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Old 08-15-14, 12:44 PM
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The joint is very essential to the long-term durability of the steps. You can go back and re-point the joints you didn't complete last night however. Just dampen the mortar that is already there and apply new to bring it out to the surface and then strike it like you did the other joints.

I looking at your pictures it appears that the bottom step is much shorter than the others, according to building codes they all have to be the same, well actually very close to the same. The difference may not be an issue to you now but could possibly be an issue when you try to sell the property.
 
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Old 08-15-14, 05:28 PM
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The joints were filled ok, it was the striking that was sub-par/omitted.
Is there anyway to make up for no strike on a full joint a day or 2 later?
Does it matter mostly on the outside and not so much on the inside?


I was curious about the first step being essentially 1 brick high.
But that is how it was when I bought the house so I will let it that way for now.
 
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Old 08-15-14, 08:42 PM
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In their present configuration, your steps present a tripping hazard. You should do something about it now, instead of waiting until you want to sell the place and move. It wouldn't surprise me if a buyer would take a grand off the offering price, as that's the minimum a mason would charge to make it right. I would either tear out all the steps and start over, or consider casting (variable depth) concrete overlays on top of the existing steps to make them all approximately equal in height, or completely remove the bottom step and make the 2 remaining risers equal in height. The concrete overlays would do double-duty in holding your bricks in place, too.
 
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Old 08-15-14, 08:47 PM
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Bridgeman, the idea of pouring concrete steps on top of the existing is a great idea that will not only make better steps but also provide a means to correct the height problem. It would be very easy to take the top layer of bricks (or more) off of each step except the top one, forming poor new steps. That would look just fine and solve two problems at once!
 
 

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