How to repair concrete outcrop under deck

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  #1  
Old 07-18-15, 12:11 PM
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How to repair concrete outcrop under deck

Hey,
I am going to rebuild my deck and expand it, but it is 'resting' over a concerete outcrop from my house. Its like a little mini bunker that used to be the original deck with poured stairs (old house) and its tied into the poor of the foundations. you can walk into it from the basement and it has bathroom hook-ups and a window.
However, the concrete seems pretty deteriorated. It has been patched by the previous owner but it has been crumbling. The cap seems strong, but from the inside you can see it has been patched with epoxy as well, which leaks if it rains. When you knock on certain parts on the inside it sounds hollow, suggesting there is not much left.
How do i fix this? Should i remove all the loose parts and just patch it with concrete and some kind of binder? What do i do with the areas where i break through the wall? My plans for the future would be to remove the deck, patch any gaps and put a roofing membrane over it before replacing the deck.
Contractors have told me to rip it our and repour or to build it up with concrete bricks on the side. Both options being very expensive. Contractors tend to do that.



 
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  #2  
Old 07-18-15, 01:00 PM
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Can you post some wide angled pics, of the deck from somewhere in the yard where we can see the entire deck? In other words, the big picture.
 
  #3  
Old 07-18-15, 01:16 PM
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Sure, when it stops storming. The deck itself should really be the concern, it is the concrete. I know how to deal with the deck etc, before i fix the concrete i will remove the deck so i can patch everything properly. I am just looking for a way to fix it.

Look for the pictures in a little bit.
 
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Old 07-18-15, 01:29 PM
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I think I get it now. Maybe it's the other side of that wall that I should be asking, to see. How much of the deck rests on it?
 
  #5  
Old 07-18-15, 01:34 PM
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Currently the whole deck goes over the area, but the deck is held up by posts. Some posts are on the old poured stairs which are still in good condition. However, ill grab some more pictures.

Are you worried its no longer strong enough to support it? What if i patch it properly, wont it be stronger?
 
  #6  
Old 07-18-15, 03:18 PM
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It's too early to tell, if the damage affected the structure. I would certainly build a temporary header inside before rebuilding the wall. There is a good chance that the damage was caused by water running down the side of the wall after it passed through the deck. Using the same design might not be a good idea.
 
  #7  
Old 07-18-15, 03:53 PM
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What is a header?

Yes, that is exactly what caused it.

I am planning to put a membrane over the top and then to put aluminium pieces between the joists that guide the water to a gutter attached to the deck. That way water wont hit it anymore. Additionally, I am going to enclose the area to build a small shed underneath the deck for lawn equipment.
 
  #8  
Old 07-18-15, 04:20 PM
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A header is a support that has posts at each end & a beam between them. In your case, it will maintain support on the ceiling/roof while you work on the outside wall. The more that I think of it, you might want to get someone to draw some plans not a contractor. They might have better ideas than just some patch work.
 
  #9  
Old 07-18-15, 04:32 PM
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So you are telling me this is beyond patch repair?

I'd hate to spend 5 grand on this.
 
  #10  
Old 07-18-15, 04:57 PM
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No, not necessarily. You can still follow your plan. The only unknown is the extent of the damage to the wall. That's why I recommended building a header for temporary support. You have to play it safe. What are the measurements of the wall & the deck?
 
  #11  
Old 07-18-15, 07:42 PM
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9*10 feet, 8 feet high inside, 6 feet high outside.

How would i begin patching. What chemical bonds should i use, what cement, etc...
 
  #12  
Old 07-18-15, 08:41 PM
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You won't know what to use until you see the extent of the damage after you remove all of the loose pieces.
 
  #13  
Old 07-19-15, 08:59 AM
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Placing new concrete and/or repair materials against old, deteriorated concrete is never a good idea. You will be wasting time, money and materials.
 
  #14  
Old 07-19-15, 09:47 AM
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Here is a link with the whole album included the other requested pictures.

Concrete repair - Album on Imgur
 
  #15  
Old 07-19-15, 03:54 PM
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Those pics answered a lot of questions. There are a few different avenues that you can take. You have already said that you didn't want to spend 5 Gs, on the project. The cheapest way out is to build temporary supports inside what you called the outcrop & chop all the loose pieces, out of the wall. When you see what's left of the wall, you can decide if you want to do a complete rebuild or not.

The deck is not up to code. I can't see if the proper footings are there but the railing is wrong, for sure. No matter what, determining the condition of the wall is your first step.
 
  #16  
Old 07-19-15, 05:20 PM
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Yea, that deck is definitely not up to code. That is why i am ripping it all out and building it larger, bigger, better.

I am adding some more pictures in a second, i chopped down some areas surrounding the deck.

Deck - Album on Imgur
 
  #17  
Old 07-19-15, 09:20 PM
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That's good. You don't need to post any more pics. You know where to start now.
 
  #18  
Old 07-20-15, 06:16 AM
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Actually,

I went through my notes from a engineer and he did indicate the concrete was reaching the end of its life. He indicated that it should be able to support itself if the deck is not fully restring on it.

Now, how do i start fixing it? If i patch it with concrete, will that increase its strength? A contractor suggested to rip down the top 3 feet and rebuild with cinderblock. Maybe i should do that. I would hate to see the area collapse.

To clean it i would take this approach:
Remove all loose material, spray it with 3000 psi to remove any dirt.
Use a chemical bond to paint on, and use a chemical bond in the concrete.

What cement do i use to patch it? Should i drill in holes for anchors?
 
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Old 07-20-15, 06:43 AM
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The engineer said that the concrete wall was reaching the end of it's life but the contractor said to replace the top 3 feet. Do you see a conflict? I do.

Remove all loose material, spray it with 3000 psi to remove any dirt.
No other decisions can be made until the first step has been done.

I would hate to see the area collapse.
Don't forget to build the temporary headers/supports that I suggested before you start to chop!!! If you don't know how to do that, hire someone who does. Even some day workers know how, to do it.
 
  #20  
Old 07-20-15, 06:50 AM
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Yes, i see the conflict. But its just the top part that has deteriorated from the water. I worry if that bottom part is bad then i can just demolish my whole house .

To replace the top 3 feet, the builder was already charging 5-6k, so maybe that's something to avoid.

Building the support, how much support would that need? I figured i would build two supporting walls, 2*10 face plate, studs and a stud on the bottom.
 
  #21  
Old 07-20-15, 07:51 AM
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I am building the support headers.

I have a second engineer that is looking at the pictures and determining whether they need to come out here.

Since the first engineer indicated that its nearing the end of the lifespan, but it should be able to support itself, I am wondering if i can put 4 of these pillers underneath with a piece of pressure treated wood.

Tiger Brand 6 ft. 4 in. Jack Post Adjustable Steel Building Support Column 3 in. O.D.-3A-6064 - The Home Depot

They are rated for permanent support according to Adjustable Steel Columns

So unless the engineer says otherwise, i will build the headers, do the patching, build the deck with posts tied into the staircase which is in good shape, and put four of those posts underneath the area. I was going to transform that area in a bathroom, but maybe it will just become storage.

Benjamin
 
  #22  
Old 07-20-15, 07:59 AM
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Those posts are good for support. The only mistake that you made is using the stoop as a footing, for the replacement deck. The code in your area is probably 4' concrete footings, in the ground.
 
  #23  
Old 07-20-15, 08:08 AM
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Sorry, I guess you have not seen the picture of the staircase. It is a staircase that goes up all the way from the ground to the house and is part of the poured concrete. I would assume this has a foundation that goes down 4 feet into the ground.



I added some more pictures to the album to show the inside of the room.

http://imgur.com/a/VI7zj#DGbRCjN
 
  #24  
Old 07-20-15, 04:51 PM
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Yes, I saw the picture. However, code requires footings.
 
  #25  
Old 07-20-15, 05:43 PM
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Woudnt the staircase be considered the footing?

I dont really understand that then. If i want to attach a ledgerboard to the side of the house, do i need to put it on a footing? No, because the house has a footing.

The stairs are build with a footing, hence that becomes the footing, no?

Ill make sure to ask an inspector.
 
  #26  
Old 07-20-15, 06:55 PM
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You don't have to convince me that the stoop is strong enough. I agree but it wouldn't pass inspection where I live.
 
  #27  
Old 07-20-15, 07:54 PM
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Any suggestions?

I know, i didnt mean to sound dickish, but the law seems a bit stupid here. I had jkust figured id use a strongtie Simpson Strong-Tie ABA 4x4 Rough ZMAX Galvanized Adjustable Post Base-ABA44RZ - The Home Depot

so, you are basically saying I cannot build a deck there? If i want a deck there i have to demolish part of my basement :S
 
  #28  
Old 07-21-15, 04:51 AM
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So far we have discussed code but you didn't say & I didn't ask, if you intended to file plans with the building dept. If so, the rest is up to them. Maybe in WI, the stoop is allowed to be used as a footing. Maybe the deck can be redesigned, to avoid the stoop. Maybe a footing can be built, into the stoop. I don't know.
 
  #29  
Old 07-21-15, 01:33 PM
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I called the city, they said i can do it with simpson ties if the structure is tied into the house. Perfect.

Now, for the headers inside the room, what should i use? I calculated its about 5500 lbs of concrete (the cap).

I can use 4 of the adjustable columns and keep them there forever? But i reckon they need to be on their own footings, not just the basement floor. I dont really want to rip open the basement floor.

For temporary headers, is two units consisting of 2*10 on top with 4 studs resting on another stud enough to carry 5000lbs?
 
  #30  
Old 07-21-15, 03:10 PM
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AFAIK, the columns are fine on the floor. You don't need footings there. I don't know the weight limit of the 2x10s but I'm sure that a 4" steel I-Beam would do the trick.
 
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