Trim on ceiling


  #1  
Old 01-18-04, 10:50 AM
kld
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Trim on ceiling

I have a victorian style living room and I would love to do some wood trim/molding on the ceiling. Can I use a brad nailer for this? How do I know where the ceiling studs are? Any tips on accomplishing this? I'm new to installing molding and this will be my first project!
 
  #2  
Old 01-18-04, 10:58 AM
Furniture Bldr
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Well, to find the studs, you can use a "Stud Finder" -same thing for ceiling joists.

Yes, you can use a brad nailer with some poly seam seal caulk behind it. "A Small Bead" Mark your studs and ceiling joists with a pencil. Typically ceiling joists are either 16" on center or 24" on center, based upon age of home and roof trusses. Look up in your attic and measure the distance between them.

Sand, stain, and finish your molding first, then cut it and nail it up. Use a wax stick to fill the holes which can be purchased at www.rockler.com

If you're doing crown, being a first-timer, it can be frustrating because it cant be cut the same way as normal moldings.
 
  #3  
Old 01-19-04, 07:50 AM
Tom_J
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I saw an interesting "workaround" to the crown moulding dilemma using manufactured crown and inside corner blocks.

Decorative, square blocks were positioned at the inside corners of the room and the moulding was butted up to these, negating the complicated angle cuts. The material was designed to be painted which may be problematic if you're set on stained wood, however, I'm not certain that the same effect couldn't be accomplished in wood with some skillful creativity.

Outside corners, unfortunately, still had to be cut the hard way and I don't know that I would, personally, care for the look of both used in the same room, but that's me.

Just another idea to keep your head spinning.

Tom
 
  #4  
Old 01-19-04, 09:02 AM
Furniture Bldr
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Tom,

What you saw is a possibility. For inside corners, one would be better off coping it, instead of trying to miter it. A lot less headaches.

When cutting crown, I hold the crown against the fence the same way it goes on the ceiling. You just have to keep those digits out of the way. Then just set the angle you need and away you go. You also need to keep it tight against the fence and not let it rock up or down.

You can cut it the harder way and flip the crown upside down and backwards. Then you can use a stop block so it all sits at the same angle.

The hardest way is to lay the crown face up and on its back side "Flat" You have to not only turn the saw to a certain deg, but you have to tilt the saw head to a certain deg too.
 
  #5  
Old 01-19-04, 05:26 PM
Tom_J
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Mike,

What fracks me (can I say "frack"?) is the age-old story of walls not being square in nearly any home ever built. I've heard that rough carpenters consider anything within a 1/4" to be good enough. (If I were working outside in Chicago, or Detroit, right now, I'd figure that was great! BRRRRRRR....)

Seriously, my point is that, not given your skill, a beginner might find a "workaround" a good way to go. On a paintable surface, a little caulk or spackle ain't gonna been noticed. Trying to fill in with wood putty (excuse me while I gag...not that I haven't done it, mind you!) would be a booger (can I say "booger"?) and would probably look like some kind of "jackleg" job.

You've got me thinking now, though, which isn't good since I'm in the middle of finishing a bathroom...

Tom
 
  #6  
Old 01-19-04, 05:46 PM
Furniture Bldr
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LOL Tom,

Well there are a lot of things/ways a homeowner doesn't even think about when doing home remodeling. Especially cost.

I agree, for the homeowner, a little caulk or spackle will do the trick for paint jobs, but not stain jobs.

I always bring extra molding of any kind, whether it would be crown, base, shoe, etc ti the job. I always take and do test pieces before I cut the real stuff. I never assume a corner is a 90deg.

With wood jobs, professionals can get a custom colored caulk made up to match the wood tone. I don't make a practice of using it, because it is so expensive and takes a while to get. It's about $20.00 a tube

Ya, it is a bit chilly here in chicago and one of the worst parts of my job is the delivery in the winter time.

A good carpenter will make sure the walls are as plumb as possible. Like the old anteg saying goes, "Things aren't made like they used to be."

With my clientele, they know I'm not inexpensive, but they also know that they will get EXACTLY what they want. I hate nails and use them as little as possible. When I make a home theater, I dado the columns together so when it's done, you don't see any nails on the sides of it. Then I clamp and glue the moldings to the face so there are no nails on it either. I feel a true sign of quality. "Hard to find these days because so many people are about getting the check and getting out."
 
  #7  
Old 01-19-04, 06:36 PM
Tom_J
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Mike,

An interesting idea. If you rabbet the face frames (outside edges...not for you, but for any of our other members), can you acheive a strong enough joint wihtout nailing?

Obviously, this would require an adjustment on the depth of any shelving, if any. What about door hardware? You could maintain a 3/4" depth on the face frame but I'm not sure that the hinges, in particular, are available.

Stop it!!! I have a bathroom to finish...

Tom
 
  #8  
Old 01-19-04, 08:25 PM
Furniture Bldr
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There should be no reason at all to nail any face frame on. You can dado out the face frame, butt glue it or pocket screw it from the back side and then glue/clamp it on. I never nail my face frames or any soild wood moldings, unless I absolutely have to.

Answer your question? I have a digital camera, so if you ever have any questions and it's hard to understand from my typing, I'll do a sketch and send it on. Or I can fax you. Everything I do is 100% from the bare bones scratch. I've had customers bring me pics from magazines and we'd end up incorporating whatever they want into whatever they want.

I'm more than willing to help anyone I can, so if anyone else needs a more indepth explaination of how to do something, I'll send a pic on.
 
  #9  
Old 01-20-04, 07:51 PM
Tom_J
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Mike,

Sorry I'm running late (remember the bathroom? ).

By way of clarification, I'll be building two vanity cabinets for the bathroom. No brainer, but they will be separated by a little over 37" with a solid counter top covering a wall expanse of 110".

The old scheme apparently provided a sitting area in the "dead space" between the two vanities. My intention is to add two drawers, running from one vanity to the other, directly below the new counter top between these units. (There's a heat vent involved so I don't want to go to the floor here.)

Given the kind of usage that you might expect in a bathroom, i.e. vanity doors being opened and closed a zillion times a day, would you expect a lap joint (for lack of a better term) to hold up on the face frames for the vanity doors without some kind of mechanical connection such as nails or pocket screws?

(As I'm sure you can envision, the outer sides of the drawer face frame will butt against the face frames of the vanity units so there's a fair amount of face framing involved here.)

Tom
 
  #10  
Old 01-20-04, 08:14 PM
Furniture Bldr
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An Idea:

Why not run floor duct work, which I believe you can get in less than 4".

Connect the duct work and run the chase towards the front of the cabinet. Take a straight bit and route slots into a piece of wood to mimic the floor grill. Cut that section of base out of the cabinet and apply the new piece of wood with the routed out slots over the whole length of cabinetry. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting a 100% color match, because it's sitting near the floor.

I'm tired, so maybe I'm not grasping what you're talking about with lap jointing. What are you talking about Lap jointing? Lap Joints is a technical term of joining to pieces of wood together by the face of the wood. and routing out 1/2 of the thickness.

If you're asking if you can make a face frame with a lap joint, sure you can.

""Yawns"" It's been a long day
 
  #11  
Old 01-22-04, 04:13 AM
Tom_J
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Mike,

Sorry, but I didn't get home from work 'til after 11 PM last night. (Doing a bit of yawning myself right now.)

Extending the duct is a fine idea and one that I'm considering. The additional cabinet space below the counter would certainly be appreciated by my wife.

On the issue of the "lap joint", I'm speaking of a rabbet 3/8" D X 3/4" W along the entire outer edge of the back of the face frame which would be glued and clamped to the leading edges of the cabinet skeleton.

When you spoke of "routing" the face, I inferred that you were speaking of "slotting" the face and either mitering or butting the corners. Same effect, essentially, though routing the face would give an additional 3/8" of glued area to the outer side of the cabinet, i.e. a stronger connection.

Sorry, I'm blasting through this but I've got to high-tail it back to work.

Tom
 
  #12  
Old 01-22-04, 11:02 AM
Furniture Bldr
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I was talking about two different things:

When i was talking abou slotting and routing a the face, I was talking about a place to allow the vent to breathe through. Youd need to cut the face of the kick on the cabinet so the air can travel through the grill youd make

As far as the face frame goes, Ive seen people just glue it to the face of the cabinet without dadoing out the back side. You can use biscuts if you want to avoid dadoing out the back. Or just simply glue it face to edge, but you must have a decent amount of glue on it.
 
  #13  
Old 01-22-04, 07:13 PM
Tom_J
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Mike,

You've given me more than enough to work with.

I appreciate your input.

I've got a number of different designs buzzing around in my head right now but I'm sure your suggestions are going to be incorporated into the final product.

Thanks much,

Tom
 
  #14  
Old 01-22-04, 07:56 PM
Furniture Bldr
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Well Tom

If you want, I can give you 15 years worth of ideas.

Oh, but not to confuse you anymore

I love what I do for a living, so any time you've got dumb, good, or otherwise questions to ask, feel free to contact me.
 
  #15  
Old 01-23-04, 06:55 PM
Tom_J
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Mike,

Don't worry about adding to my confusion. You're doing a wonderful job out here on the forum.

And, for what it's worth, if I'm doing something stupid, I want to hear that I'm doing something stupid. Like everyone else out here (we hope), I'm reaching for a "professional" product. I have no problem with the extra time, effort and, if necessary, expense. (If it entails more tools, dang it, I'm ready!)

Tom
 
  #16  
Old 01-23-04, 08:14 PM
Furniture Bldr
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More tools? Arg Arg Arg "Home Improvement Grunt" "TV Show"

Well, I'm glad my advice is helping out, but sad to say some of the truth-be-knowns that I've offered, a few took it to heart and complained because I told them the brutal truth about their question. I was sent a notice by a DIY Moderator about my conduct and to tone it down. Eh, O well. People ask for the truth and I'll sure as heck give it to them.

Tom, If you ever need anything in more detail, contact me and I'll either fax or send a digital pic to you; so it will be easier to understand.

I may not always say things in the most proper way in respose to a question, but I sure as heck would never give someone false info. They come on DIY to get the truth and that's exactly what they get!

 
  #17  
Old 01-24-04, 06:58 AM
Tom_J
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Mike,

As far as "brutal honesty" goes, I'm afraid that there are people who are more interested in being brutal than they are in being honest. In a forum like this I would say that would apply to two types of contributors. The first would be the type who knows only one way of doing something and wants to jam it down everyone's throat as the only way to go about it.

The second type is one who knows a very great deal and makes every effort to let everyone know that no one else out here is in his/her league.

If I thought you fell into either category, we wouldn't be talking. You know far more than I, but not enough to blow smoke up my skirt (if you'll pardon the expression ).

You just keep up the good work and info.

Tom
 
  #18  
Old 01-24-04, 04:20 PM
Furniture Bldr
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I have worked very hard to get to where I'm at today. On average, I put in about 80-90 hours a week just to keep my shop open and keep things flowing. I'm a ONE person shop, who does every aspect of the business from meeting with clients, layout, design, ordering, cutting, assembly, mica/veneer, finishing, installation, thank you letters, accounting, etc. It's a lot of work and I've learned a lot throughout the years and I'm more than happy to pass my knowledge onto others whom could benefit from it.

No matter what advice you give out to solve a projects problem, there is always someone who isn't going to like your idea or may take what was said the wrong way. "As it as happened to i"

People rely on the DIY Network to hopefully be able to gain knowledge by listening to others problems and hearing answers from others and more importantly the people who do that trade for a living.

I was also asked by a few Moderators, "The people who moniter the forums" to become one, but I don't think I could "Blow smoke up someone's skirt" to make them feel better about their Home Improvement Problems.

I tell it like it is and how I know to fix it. Everyone has different ways of achieving the same goals and all I'm doing is telling the way I do things. I do hope that my experience benefits others and makes their Home Improvement Project go more smoothly.

It's sad that some people, a few moderators included, don't like the advice I give at times; because it makes them feel as though they don't know as much as they thought and or it takes away their "Power".

I will continue to give advice the best way I see fit and if my advice/the way I go about things was detrimental to others, I probably wouldn't be able to type right now.

DIY is a great place for people to give/get advice, but certain people need to realize that without people "like" me, who do it every day for a living, I don't believe DIY would be as great of a place to go to as it is. Thus what they call "Moderators" Hence the fact that I'm not one. I do not claim to know it all in the least, but I do have a wide range of experience in which I'm happy to pass along to people such as yourself Tom.

I do believe that people who read this forum need to take any advice/comments with a grain of salt and learn to accept the fact that someone may not say things in the most professional manner as one would like to think, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't listen to "The Advice Only" and push aside how someone goes about it. Life is too short to get mad and write emails to people complaining about how they don't like the way someone "said" something. If the person at hand, which whom it's addressed to doesn't appreciate it, then they should be brave enough to tell the person who said it and not go write emails to the Moderators about it. I don't want to see DIY turn into another 90210 TV Show. I give my advice from my professional every day experiences and people should expect nonetheless.

Thanks for your time Tom and I look forward to helping you and anyone else the best way I can.
 
 

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