For us "non-pro's", what would be the recommended tolerances that a professional cabinet maker would find acceptable when building a piece?

The reason that I ask is that there have to be others, like me, who spend a seemingly inordinate amount of time trying to go for "perfection" when "excellence" would suffice.

Specifically, I've been trying to stay within 1/32" on a couple of vanities that I'm still building...yes, Mike, I'm still working on the boogers!

Is there a "Rule of Thumb" for this, or should I just go back to using a lot of my old Navy language?

Tom

 

You need to be more specific on what you're looking to find out on.

You say 1/32" well what are you talking about? What aspect? If you made several cabinets that were 1/32" +/- by the time you add all of the cabinets together, you could be a lot bigger or a lot smaller.

 

All right, Michael. (Good point, btw.)

Let's say that, specifically, I'm looking to square up the top of the vanity as well as the front and back.

Looking at the top, I'm looking at 42 3/16" across one diagonal and, just shy of, 42 3/16" across the other. (About 1/32")

Across the front, I'm at 46 15/16" across one and 47 " (even) across the other, again, give or take 1/32". (Tape measures... )

The cabinets will be separated by 37"... a sink on either end of the bathroom.

Between the two vanities, I intend to build a stack of two drawers on either side of both. Having "rounded over" the face frames of both vanities, the face frames of the drawers will be recessed by approximately 3/4" (the depth of the vanity face frames) and left squared off, attaching to the inner sides of the vanity cabinets. (I've already got over-extension drawer slides from Rockler.)

Your turn...

Tom

 

If you're doing face frame cabinetry 1/32" wont matter since the spaces between the fronts and drawers is typically more than 1"

If you're doing it euro style meaning you have a face frame but the gaps of your doors exemplify a euro cabinet then yes, the 1/32" will matter.

If you're making the doors and drawer fronts, you can always sand a bit of a taper on the door or drawer front to make up for the box not being square, then route whatever profiles you want

 

Thanks, Mike.

Accepting my limitations, I had already "hedged" my bet by building the doors to "overlay" the face frames attached with concealed, adjustable hinges.

The drawers are yet to come, however my intent is to overlay the frames with the drawer fronts as well.

Actually, I used my kitchen cabinets and drawers (all "overlay" style) as the model for the bathroom project so the "euro" design that you mention wasn't a consideration, but I can see what you mean about that 1/32" affecting the appearance, moreso, perhaps, on the drawers with their smaller face area.

What got me thinking about this whole question, Mike, was, oddly enough, your home theater project. Obviously, no one would find "gaps" acceptable in joints or other aspects of a piece where absolute precision is mandatory. However, using your columns as a specific "for instance", what latitude would you allow yourself in matching the dimensions of one with another? Is any variance acceptable by professional standards?

I would assume that everyone out here, from the pro's to the first-timers, want all of our projects to be "perfect" but we both know that ain't gonna happen. Just wondering if you could let us "sawdust production specialists" in on a few tips from a pro's point of view.

Tom

 

Tom-

Quite frankly, if you're holding 1/32" (+/-) tolerances, you're way ahead of the game. High volume production shops with computer controlled tools might get closer, but for a home shop that's darn good.

You want to pay attention to your precision, but don't get obsessed by it. Even the best work will be affected by the installation (screwing cabinets to the wall can twist them slightly) and environmental conditions (temperature/humidity changes) cause their own problems. I'm a big fan of scribe moldings just because they can hide small imperfections that occur either during installation - or when the weather changes.

Another thing to remember is that as the designer/builder/installer, you'll know about every little imperfection and will always "see" it. 99.9999% of everyone else will never notice and just marvel at how well the project came out. Just give them a sheepish smile, act a little humble, and say "Yeah, it came out pretty well".

I just finished 20 wood cases for stereo components and (from MY perspective) about 5-6 were "perfect". Everyone else (including the customer) thought they were excellent.

 

Hi, Dave!

Thanks for your perspective. (Deep inside, I was hoping that you or Mike would let me off the hook over the 1/32"! )

You make some additional, excellent points. First, you're absolutely right that we "see" every little thing that wasn't quite up to snuff. Heck, I've even pointed these out to other folks who look at me like I'm nuts. (All the better! )

Second, for all of my time-sucking, lumber-eating care, I know already that my bathroom walls are nowhere near "square" which will require more creativity on my part. I think I'm getting to be more adept at cosmetics than I am at the actual woodwork.

Last, but not least, the humidity factor, short as it may last, must take some type of toll in a bath over a period of time. I can hardly wait...

Very nice to hear that your customer was satisfied with the stereo cases. Fortunately, beyond myself, I only have to satisfy the little woman and she's a pretty good sport about these matters.

(Truth be told, if I can get her bathroom back in order shortly, the vanity could be 6" out of whack and she'd still be tickled. Not really, but you get my meaning.)

Thanks again, Dave.

Tom

 

SWMBO is my greatest critic as well. We've had some "discussions" over the years about the amount of effort that should be invested in something to achieve "perfection".

I probably didn't help myself several years ago when I told her that craftsmanship often involved disguising mistakes - or making them look like part of the plan.


This statement is completely wrong and as a full grown man, you really should know better. Memorize the last sentence in the third paragraph of my earlier quote.................AND USE IT!!!!

 

Sorry, Dave.

I carried the humility thing too far! Dang it, dang it, dang it!!

From now on, if they can't spot it, tough! If they do, I'll point out that there's not another one like it in the whole world. (Lame, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it! )

Tom

 

Good man, Tom. I like the "uniqueness" argument. I may start using that instead of claiming that the "mistake" is an attempt to be rustic.

Thanks.

 

There is one easy solution to not seeing a mistake you made in the cabinetry Tom....... Dont look at it!

 

Dave,

Love the "rustic" ploy. Rustic-Contemporary... We may be on to something, here.

Mike,

I gotta look at it. That's where the...shhhh...TP is hidden.

(Fortunately, it ain't my bathroom!)

How about if I just start eliminating my boo-boos? A lot to ask, but anything's possible. (Not probable, mind you, but still possible.)

Tom

 

and to think this was over 1/32.....

 

Crossroads,

Just wait for the 1/32" sequel, The Micrometer and its Place in Woodworking, coming to the DoItYourself.com Community Forums soon!

Tom

 

Crossroads?

I'm sorry that you feel 1/32" is no big deal. 1/32" can mean all the difference on a project.

If you have a 20ft long wall of cabinetry to make and each cabinet is 1/32" off, take that 1/32" and multiply that times say 16 boxes, you'd have a gap of 1/2" overall. Divide the two and you'd have a 1/4" gap on each side. Sure you can cheat an make a bigger scribe, ONLY if you made the scribe seperately. If not, you can surely add another one after the fact, but who wants to see a seam line from a piece that is 1/4" wide? Or on another note, if the cabinet is 1/32" big, the unit won't fit, then look at all of the work you'd have to do to fix it. lets say you cut the end cabinets down, well now your doors aren't going to be the same size on each side.

The 1/32" can make the difference between a quality job and a half *** job. Some people just take more pride in their work than others.

Dave D and I do it for a living every day, so we have to be a lot more critical than most DIY'ers

Let me ask you this,,,,, If someone made you a custom, wall to wal, home theather that ended up having a 1/4" caulk bead on each side, are you going to tell me that you'd accept that after you just got done spending $15,000.00 on the unit?

 

Whoa, Mike.........hold on there. Some caulks looks pretty good - particularly the newer colored ones.

The truth is that you'll always have some small error somewhere. The thing to do is constantly check yourself, your tools, and your techniques to squeeze out as much error as you can.

Fer instance;
I found myself cutting things about 1/32" longer than planned. After some checking, I found that the hook on my trusty tape measure was bent. Dug a newer one out of the toolbox and I'm back in the groove.

I use a home made 'sled' on my table saw for cutoff work. Recently, I noticed that pieces weren't perfectly square (diagonals were off by ~1/32"). Turns out that the guide runner that runs in the miter slot was slightly loose and the sled could twist a few thousandths and throw my cuts off. Monday was slow, so I made a new sled. Hopefully it will last as long as the old one (5 yrs)

 

Spend a couple thousand on production cabinets and THEN struggle to get them to match your crooked walls. Also, you shouldn't think that buying your cabinets exempts you from trimming edging or wiping off glue smear. It doesn't buy you perfection, either.

Anyone who thinks you can put 144 inches of cabinet in 144 inches is smoking crack. Especially in an older home that originally was plaster walls. Those old-timers covered up their mistakes with plaster, or just made it worse.

I wouldn't worry about 1/32 becoming a cumulative error. especially if its plus/minus. Keep track on paper, line up the cabinets as you go along, etc. There's good reason for those filler panels, and for putting the refrigerator on the long wall.

The DIY instructions on hanging cabinets are grossly simplified. I dare you to get good results without shimming the corners and using a hose level. I don't consider a laser level that accurate, but that's just me.

There is one really good reason the cabinet displays at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. are only eight feet or so, and open-ended:
It's impossible to detect cumulative error over eight feet without both walls.

Before you decide to inflict an impossible standard upon yourself, go look at several tract home display models.

Going to a cabinet makers showroom is looking at airbrushed Playboy centerfolds. There was a lot of fussing and fuming before the end of the day. That fit and finish is to sell cabinets, but unless they numerically quantify performance you won't get it on your order.


Ask around and see if any cabinet maker would guarantee a tolerance.

 

I wouldn't worry about 1/32 becoming a cumulative error. especially if its plus/minus.


I think you should worry about 1/32 +/- adding up. If you measure from wall to wall at the top, middle and bottom, put a level on the wall, you can get a good idea of how much scribe you'll need.

Incase you forgot Steve, I own a custom furniture shop, so I am a Cabinetry/Furniture Maker. There are trick ways of doing wall to all cabinets with sliding scribes to account for different imperfections. After you've been in-the-business long enough, one would understand.

 

in certain applications tolerances are very important. i built and installed television control room studios for 11 years. 90 percent of the equipment installed in them are called rack systems. no mistakes made on these cabinets as it throws off everything. when a producer is sitting at a "tub" [control panel] he is not looking at the panel but at the moniters. if the "tub"is off just a little he hits the wrong button. hence the need for accuracy. i would hate to have gotton to Singapore and have something not fit because of a 1/32 mistake. however in most home installations scribes are necessary and a god spend for the diy'er. that is what we are talking about here right? by the way furn builder...nice wall unit pics.

 

Thank you cross

With that Home Theater I made, I had a space of 91" from window to window. I made the unit 90-1/2" wide so that left me 1/4" on each side of the unit If I didn't care so much about 1/32" that unit could have been too big and then I would have really been in trouble. A mistake like that could cost me several thousand dollars, so it's very crutial that I make sure my dimensions are right on the money. Even more so when you have cabinets existing and the customer want's to make a cabinet to fit inbetween the two and you can't uninstall the existing to do it.

There is a time and a place for perfection and in my trade, if you're good, you make it as perfect as possible, because that's what people spend their hard earned money on.

 

Mike,

If a potential customer spec'd a tolerance, would you agree to it without a reply? Or would you be unable to resist giving a lecture?

Just wondering

 

LOL! Me? Give a lecture? NOOOOOOOOOO NEVERRRRRRRRRR.

The only real tolerance would be if it had to go wall to wall or floor to ceiling and or both. In addition to that would be a unit that has to fit inbetween two other cabinets on each side. No one ever measures the unit when it's done, but if the gaps on a wall to wall, floor to ceiling unit look big enough that I could fit an actual caulk tube in it, there might be a problem.

 

Michael,

Yes, you do. You lecture. Lecture, lecture, lecture. (That Girl Scout cookie issue started it with me.... )

P.S. Is that caulk tube less than 1/32" 'cuz that's what this post is about? (You and Steve can "banter" in someone else's thread! This "perfection" thing is a lot bigger than me. )

Tom

 

"Lecture = Truth. Some just don't like it.

So nice of you to join us this evening Tom. Where have ya been?

 

Mike,

Playing with the bath vanities. Seriously, for a non-pro, this isn't a "slap-together" job. (Gotta take my time here, Mike!)

The raised-panel doors, stiles and rails, face frames, etc. have been kicking my rear end. Not difficult, just time consuming.

(Finally got my wish to get a dovetail jig! Not in the mood to listen to everyone critique the darned thing, but let's just say that I got one! )

Lousy day at work, and has been for two weeks. Another story...

Tom

 

Bad day at work? Try Midol.

It was so nice to finish that recent job and I got about 1 days rest, which didn't feel like rest, before I had to start this Walnut sitting room Home Theater/Fireplace unit.

I figure by the time I'm about 70, I'll be able to take a vacation.

 

Midol works?

Got a vacation (?) coming up in a few weeks and figure that I ought to feel like I'm 70 by the time it gets here. (sigh)

Enough whining. Time to go to work. (really big sigh)

Tom

 

I'm playing flooring person today in my house. I'm putting down 800sq ft of 3/4" x 3-1/4 select white maple. I've already started it, so hopefully I'll finish it today. What a pain in the butt flooring is.

I'll stick to cabinet making.

 

Well, Bill Cosby claims it does.

-- Mark

 

Mark,

If one of us let's it get out that we heard that on an old lp record album, half of the folks out here are going to ask what the heck we're talking about.

(I'm thinking that bit was on the "Wonderfulness" album but I listened to that one and "Why Is There Air?" so many times when I was a kid that the two kind of blend together.)

Mike,

I spent half my day replacing components and rewiring a rooftop condenser unit in the cold, wind and spitting rain.

I'm sticking to cabinet-making, too.

(Now, get back to your flooring. You don't have time to play on the computer!)

Tom

 

Tom,

Agreed, we won't say where we heard it. (But if we did, I'd say it was one of the two you mentioned or perhaps some others that my older brother had.)

Instead, I'll try to add something relevent to the topic.

Would you believe I was 43 years old before I realized that the little bit of play at the end of a tape measure is part of its design, to compensate for the thickness of the little tab thingy so that both inner and outer measurements are made accurately?

Mark

 

Mark,

Ditto on the tape measure hook. I could never figure out why there wasn't a single manufacturer on the planet that knew how to make the darned things tight.

DUH!!!

And there's the tale of the (anonymous) fellow who ripped a bunch of 1 X 12 pine when he first got his table saw only to find that some of the boards were 3/32" narrower than the others, depending on which side of the blade the "finished" board was on. (Ohhhhhh...there's something called blade "kerf"??? )

Tom

 

It's foolish to even think that you could use the end of the tape for a measurement.

Have you ever dropped a tape measurer? As we all have. If you drop that tape ONE TIME and it hits that tab, the whole measurement is out of whack. If you want an accurate measurement, meausure off of the 1" and don't forget to subtract the 1"

So if i hold the tape on the 1" and it says 12-5/8" my measurement is actually 11-5/8"

 

When I use that method, I prefer to measure off the 10" mark. I might forget to subtract 1" and cut the piece wrong. But if I forget to subtract 10", it's obvious when I go to start the cut that the piece will come out too big. That will jog my memory into doing the subtraction.

 

That's what I do too, Mark.

An old cabinetmaker told me of a time when the end of his tape had broken off so he carefully bent a hook at 1". His next set of cabinets were - you guessed it - off by exactly 1". He was (to be as polite as possible) PI**ED!!

 

After cutting a few expensive pieces wrong, you'll learn to subtract the 1"