BELL Old Rotary Phone

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  #41  
Old 08-23-11, 01:21 PM
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The soldering is done, I disconnected the slate and slate/red wires from the K & A terminals and soldered the new capacitor between these 2 wires. After I checked the phone and I do have the dial tone.

Now do you want me to connect the black wire from the F terminal to L1?

After that I will have to get someone to call me
 
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Old 08-23-11, 04:08 PM
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I'd put a little wet toilet paper around the capacitor body before soldering. Not dripping, just very moist.
 
  #43  
Old 08-23-11, 08:47 PM
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The A suffix on the C-4A ringer simply differentiates from the C-4B which does not have the slate and slate/red wires.

I want you to VERY CAREFULLY check the wiring against the diagram previously posted. The wire colors are as follows:

S= slate (grey)
S-G= slate with green tracer
S-W= slate with white tracer
S-R= slate with red tracer
S-BR= slate with brown tracer
S-Y= slate with yellow tracer
S-BK= slate with black tracer
BK= black
BR= blue
G= green
W= white
R= red
BL= blue

Note that terminal F has two wires, a blue from the dial and a slate/white from the hook switch. There should be no other wires connected to terminal F. Once you have verified that all wires are connected in accordance with the diagram EXCEPT the red ringer wire is connected to L2 and the black ringer wire is connected to L1 try the telephone.

One other thing, IF you have several telephones with old-fashioned ringers such as this phone all connected to the same line it is possible that the load will be so great as to not allow any of the phones to ring properly.
 
  #44  
Old 08-23-11, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Furd View Post
Note that terminal F has two wires, a blue from the dial and a slate/white from the hook switch. There should be no other wires connected to terminal F. Once you have verified that all wires are connected in accordance with the diagram EXCEPT the red ringer wire is connected to L2 and the black ringer wire is connected to L1 try the telephone.

One other thing, IF you have several telephones with old-fashioned ringers such as this phone all connected to the same line it is possible that the load will be so great as to not allow any of the phones to ring properly.
My F terminal has the Black wire from the ringer and a Green wire from L1 (NOT as you state). Also I dont have any other rotary phones on my phone line but I do have 6 new phones on my phone line.

Anyway I did connect the black from the F to L1 and the phone does not ring and talking on the phone is now worst, it sound more muted my voice and have to shout.

I took the phone to my office and plan to make a wiring schematic tomorrow in .JPG and compare it with the previous schematic plus post it for your info. I also posted 3 additional photos on the same link as earlier just in case you can see something more since I have pushed away the ringer and the views are now better.

Sorry Furd but if you are tired we can forget about it
 
  #45  
Old 08-24-11, 06:45 AM
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I posted my wiring diagram here
BELL Phone pictures by kolias - Photobucket

Although there are similarities with the diagram on post 28, I think my diagram is not the same but of course I am not an expert with electronic diagrams

Hope this helps
 
  #46  
Old 08-24-11, 07:43 AM
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I revised the diagram. On the link look the 1st photo titled REVISED
 
  #47  
Old 08-24-11, 08:59 AM
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I have the following questions:

1. On the ringer, why one bell is silver color and the other brass color? Just to give different tones?

2. What is the voltage range of this phone and is it DC or AC?

3. On the ringer, which wire is the + and which is the - ?
 
  #48  
Old 08-24-11, 10:12 AM
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I've got a rush project going on for the historical museum where I volunteer so I won't be able to comment on the wiring diagram until next week. As for the questions...

1. I don't know about the different colors but the American (Western Electric) models have part numbers that denote the frequency. 52A through 59A. Each gong will have a different number to give a two-tone ring.

2. Telephones use both alternating current (AC) and direct current (DC). The alternating current is used ONLY for the ringer and is in a range of 80 to 130 volts. The most common frequency of this "ringer current" is 20 Hertz (cycles per second) although a few other frequencies are used with special party line ringers. Common ringers will NOT operate on 60 Hertz power.

The direct current is used for both the signalling (dialing) control and for "talk battery" purposes. On an open circuit (phone "on hook") the voltage across the line will be approximately 48 volts D.C. with the "ring" terminal being negative. When you take the phone "off hook" this voltage drops significantly to about 6-12 volts. The way the automatic switching works is far too complicated to describe here.

3. Since the ringer is an AC device there is no + or -. The capacitor in the ringer circuit is to block the DC (else the ringer would short circuit the line) but allow the AC to pass through to ring the bell.


With six other telephones on the line it is possible the ring voltage is simply dropping too low for proper operation of the mechanical ringer. I want you to try connecting just the ringer (with the capacitor) to the line cord and plugging the line cord into a jack while also unplugging at least four of the other telephones. You can make a terminal block (to connect the ringer and line cord) from a small block of wood and a couple of small sheet-metal screws. If the ringer works under this scenario try connecting additional telephones to see if it stops working with more than two phones connected. We will deal with the telephone itself and the echo after getting the ringer alone to work.
 
  #49  
Old 08-24-11, 10:52 AM
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The line cord has black, red, green, and yellow wires and the ringer has black, red, slate and slate/red wires.

How should I connect the line cord to the ringer?
 
  #50  
Old 08-24-11, 10:56 AM
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I thought you soldered the capacitor to the slate and slate/red wires? The active wires in the line cord are the red and green. Connect the red ringer wire to the red line cord wire and the black ringer wire to the green line cord wire.
 
  #51  
Old 08-24-11, 11:37 AM
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Had a friend with cell visiting so I had to take the advandage....

Connect line cord red to ringer red and line cord green to ringer black; with all other house phones connected - ringer does not ring; with all other house phones disconnected - ringer does not ring.

I guess ringer is gone?
 
  #52  
Old 08-24-11, 05:56 PM
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I guess ringer is gone?
You did leave the capacitor connected between the slate and slate/red, correct?

Those C-4 ringers are almost bulletproof so I am surprised it doesn't work. If you didn't live in a foreign country () I'd just send you a ringer. (I think I have a few but maybe not.)

At this point it is probably best to reassemble the phone without the ringer and get one of those add-on external ringers. The add-on would likely be less expensive than purchasing a new (or used) ringer from that source I previously linked to or the cost of my sending one.
 
  #53  
Old 08-24-11, 07:08 PM
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Yes I left the capacitor connected

I’m also surprised the ringer is not working because I got this phone new from Bell when I moved to Montreal in the early 70’s and has not been used a lot.

I thought to use this phone in my shop for the loud ring it had, but it’s not that important; I can use another spare phone I have. This exercise was an excellent education on phones wiring and enjoyed a lot

Thank you Furd for offering to send me a ringer, which is not practical, and for your excellent help
 
  #54  
Old 08-26-11, 12:15 PM
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Hey Furd I’m back cause I had a though

About 5 years ago or so when I switched my dial-up Internet to DSL, I had a Bell technician who came twice to my house to do whatever to connect my new DSL modem. I remember the second time he installed this Corning ADSL/VDSL POTS SPLITTER as shown here
BELL Phone pictures by kolias - Photobucket

Is it possible that this box does something and not allowing enough juice to drive the ringer?
 
  #55  
Old 08-26-11, 12:54 PM
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Highly unlikely, especially since you state you have six other telephones that ring properly. I will say that the technician should be shot for leaving such a sloppy installation.
 
  #56  
Old 08-26-11, 03:27 PM
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I though about the installation that looked kind of odd but since I haven’t seen any other ones I thought that is normal LOL. Good thing it's inside the box I made years ago to cover the electrical panel and that mess is not visible

Yes the other phones ring properly but the all are the new style phones with perhaps “electronic ringing” where the rotary phone is “mechanical ringing”.

Anyway I found the pamphlet from Corning the technician left behing and for the 3 pair of connection on that box it says:
telco tip, telco ring (top pair)
voice tip, voice ring (middle pair)
data tip, data ring (bottom pair)

The rotary phone is connected on the bottom pair

Thanks again
 
  #57  
Old 08-26-11, 04:47 PM
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telco tip, telco ring (top pair)
voice tip, voice ring (middle pair)
data tip, data ring (bottom pair)

The rotary phone is connected on the bottom pair
The problem perhaps. It should be on the middle pair. The filter may be blocking the ring signal.
 
  #58  
Old 08-26-11, 06:10 PM
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Ray I have no clue about it but the pamphlet also has this info:
top pair = line
middle pair = DSL Modem
bottom pair = phone

To me, the middle pair should only be for the modem.

If of any help, I can scan and send the 2 small pages of the pamphlet
 
  #59  
Old 08-26-11, 06:31 PM
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Well, you've done it again, written two competing statements. Are the telephones on the middle pair or the lower pair of the splitter? The box legend shows the DSL connection on the middle pair but you wrote the data is on the lower pair.

Also, although a check would have to be made of the ENTIRE system, the tip wire should be the green and the ring wire should be the red, just the opposite of what your picture shows. I don't know enough about DSL to know if this would make a big difference but it most assuredly will with an early model tone-dial telephone. On the input to the splitter tip should be the blue/white wire and ring should be the white/blue.
 
  #60  
Old 08-26-11, 07:13 PM
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To me, the middle pair should only be for the modem.
Data and modem mean the same thing and in the post I replied to you wrote data was on the bottom pair.
telco tip, telco ring (top pair)
voice tip, voice ring (middle pair)
data tip, data ring (bottom pair)

The rotary phone is connected on the bottom pair
Scan the pamphlet and post as a JPEG.
 
  #61  
Old 08-26-11, 07:32 PM
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Here is the 2 small page document
BELL Phone pictures by kolias - Photobucket
 
  #62  
Old 08-26-11, 11:05 PM
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I see why the confusion, the silly booklet is saying two different wiring arrangements. I would go by the designations on the unit itself. To be certain there should be only certain jacks (maybe only one) that are for the DSL modem. To test you can plug a telephone jack into the various jacks throughout the house and take a listen. Any jack wired for the DSL will have a noise on it that won't show on the jacks for telephone only service.

All the telephone only jacks should be wired to the bottom pair of terminals of the splitter unit (which is really a noise filter) and all DSL modem jacks should be wired to the center pair of terminals.

I have no idea why standard color coding was not used in the wiring except that maybe the wires are reversed at the network interface and the tech was too lazy to correct this mistake.
 
  #63  
Old 08-27-11, 12:23 AM
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Just to satisfy my curiosity can you open the NID, the gray box shown at the top of your picture, and show us inside.
 
  #64  
Old 08-27-11, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Just to satisfy my curiosity can you open the NID, the gray box shown at the top of your picture, and show us inside.
Is there any trick how to open this box? I also would like to see whats inside and tried to open it yesterday, pull the cover straight out, or slide it up/dn to no success
 
  #65  
Old 08-27-11, 07:05 AM
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Post a full size picture of the NID and I'm sure someone will be able to tell how to open it.
 
  #66  
Old 08-27-11, 11:19 AM
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Here is the insides of the NID box
BELL Phone pictures by kolias - Photobucket

Had to slide the cover upwards (very hard)

The 2 black wires connect to the bottom terminals and the center terminal looks like to be the ground
 
  #67  
Old 08-27-11, 04:15 PM
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What a mess. I would disconnect the blue and blue/white wire from the NID and hook the phone there. If it doesn't work there with no load it won't work anywhere.
 
  #68  
Old 08-27-11, 04:46 PM
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Sure I can do this but it will take me some time

The line cord on my rotary phone has a modular plug at the other end where it plugs into the wall outlet and I don’t want to cut it and splice it after (if it doesn’t work).

I have a pile of old wiring and I’m sure that I have in there an old phone cable.

I will post back
 
  #69  
Old 08-27-11, 05:50 PM
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There are lots of stores where you should be able to purchase a telephone jack for a couple of bucks. That is what I would do and then just plug the phone into the newly connected jack after disconnecting the wires that go to the splitter.


What you have is not really a NID (Network Interface Device) but a "Station Protector". I could look up the part number but it would have no significance.
 
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Old 08-27-11, 06:43 PM
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Much better idea Furd and never thought about it because I do have a few spare telephone jacks

Thanks
 
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Old 08-28-11, 11:19 AM
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I connected the phone to the NID terminals and the ringer didn't work

So I give up and thanks to all again
 
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Old 08-30-11, 07:31 AM
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Hi there Furd

In post #62 you mentioned that this Corning box I have is a noise filter. The company who sent me the modem also sent me half a dozen adapters like this
BELL Phone pictures by kolias - Photobucket

and I was to plug one end to the wall outlet and plug the phone on the other end. Are these adapters also a noise filter?

Testing my phones with or without these adapters have noticed no difference

Do I need them?

Thank you
 
  #73  
Old 08-30-11, 10:20 AM
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Yes, those are noise filters. Try plugging a telephone directly into the jack you use for the DSL modem and then you will hear the noise. Since you have the Corning filter you do not need the individual filters and may toss them or find someone locally who might want them.
 
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Old 08-30-11, 10:24 AM
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If you decide to go the external ringer route...might want to check the ones with the strobe that flashes as well. Nice to have if its a noisy area.
 
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Old 08-30-11, 10:40 AM
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Thank you Furd, I thought they may serve some other purpose but I will remove them and keep.

Gunguy good idea the strobe, thanks
 
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Old 08-30-11, 11:00 AM
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Technically they are not noise filters. They are frequency filters. Most I have seen have two jacks built in not one. One of the jacks for the pots side filters out high frequency signal of the DSL side. The other jack is for DSL and filters out the low frequency pots signal which can interfere with the modem syncing. Are they marked what they are for? Off topic of your problem probably but if you had used one intended for a DSL connection on the problem phone it might have filtered out the low frequency ring signal.
 
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Old 08-30-11, 03:53 PM
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Thanks Ray for the info,

No these adapters I have have no markings and they only have one connection for the phone and the other end is to plug in the wall.

The rotary phone I tried with the adaptor and without but no luck LOL, guess cant win them all
 
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Old 09-01-11, 09:10 AM
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Sorry, I have been busy, but it seems like almost everything is tested no.

Regarding the splitter, this should not reduce the tringing signal much, at least not for only one ringer like that. If you connect the phone directly to the line before the splitter, and the telephone rings when you call, the error is in the splitter. This setup may slow your internet considerably! and should not be left so permanent.

The NE 500 type telephones has obviously been made with different circuits, and with slightly different wiring.

Since the telephone itselves (without ringer) works well, we may just look at ringer circuit, and eventually the line splitter.

dsk
 
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Old 09-01-11, 01:01 PM
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Old 09-01-11, 01:13 PM
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No problem dsk, I thought you went on vacations since in Europe they all going vacationing in August, LOL.

Thank you for your help but regarding the splitters I tried the rotary phone with and without the splitter and the ringer does not work.

However I discover that removing the splitters from my phones makes no difference when I talk but I noticed even with one splitter removed, my Internet connection goes dead; therefore all my phones are now with the splitters like before.

I don’t understand what you mean with “we may just look at ringer circuit, and eventually the line splitter”. If you want me to try something else on the ringer, let me know
 
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