Eero Mesh and Fios (G3100 Router)?

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  #1  
Old 10-13-20, 06:05 PM
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Eero Mesh and Fios (G3100 Router)?

Hi All,

I'm (probably) going to upgrade from my current 75/75 speed (with G3100 router attached by coax to ONT) to a higher speed (definitely not higher than 400/400, based on pricing). In order to do that, I need to connect the G3100 router to the ONT via ethernet wire, which means I need to move the G3100 from where it currently is in the house. Doing this will mean I will leave maybe 30-40% of my house with weak (or no) wifi signal. So, I'm thinking of doing the following, and please let me know what you think:

1. Connect ONT to G3100 WAN via Cat 6a ethernet wire;
2. Connect ONT to G3100 via coax (because I have tv set top boxes and also want to use MoCa adapters) as follows:
i) coax from ONT to splitter;
ii) coax from splitter to G3100; and
iii) coax from splitter to where I want to have tv STBs and MoCa adapters;
3. connect a Fios MoCa extender (ECB5240M) via coaxial in the dead-zone area.

Because the G3100 is MoCa 2.5 and the ECB5240M is MoCa 2.0, I should be getting up to the full 400 Mbps (that I would pay for) out of the ECB5240M. (If I ever want to upgrade to a higher speed past 500 Mbps, I'd need to get a 2.0 bonded or 2.5 adapter in the dead-zone area.)

Now that I have that set-up, I want to connect an Eero mesh via ethernet wire to the G3100 LAN and also to the ECB5240M LAN. Because the backhaul for both is ethernet (with up to 400 Mbps that I'd be paying for), I'm assuming my wifi should also be that speed (if I'm standing right next to either Eero - if I start moving farther away, I understand my speed will drop). I may add a third Eero, although I am unsure if it will be via ethernet backhaul or possibly wifi backhaul. (I really hope I'm using these terms correctly!)

My house is basically a rectangle, so the first Eero would be on the first floor at one end of the house where I will need to move the G3100 to; the second Eero would be on the second floor at the other end of the house. The third Eero (if I use it) woudl be in approximately the middle of the house on the second floor. (We don't have a basement.)

So - would my set-up work as I have described it above? Would adding the third Eero have any detrimental effects if backhauled by wifi? Is it better to not even add it unless I can add it via ethernet?

I've seen several ways online of what I would need to do to the G3100 so that the Eeros woudl work, but not all of the online articles agree with each other. Anyone have a good article/link/set of instructions that will walk me through it? (Assuming I have everything above correct, I've learned it all over the past week; if I don't have the above correct, then I clearly haven't learned it over the past week!)

Also, are Eeros good to go with? I don't mean the Eero Pro, just the regular Eero that is less than $200 for a 3-pack. Any other choices? (We are an Alexa/Echo home, and we don't use Google Assistant.)

Anything else I should be considering?

Thanks in advance!

 
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  #2  
Old 10-16-20, 08:50 AM
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I need to connect the G3100 router to the ONT via ethernet wire, which means I need to move the G3100 from where it currently is in the house
.
I donít see why you have to move it. It seems to me you can leave the router where it is, or move it to any other coax access point in the house which may be more advantageous, and then use MoCA adapters to connect the ONT Ethernet to the router like this:

ONT---Ethernet---MoCA adapter---MoCA adapter ---Ethernet---G3100

It seems to me adapters like these would work and they are not too expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/goCoax-Adapte.../dp/B07XYDG7WN


 
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Old 10-16-20, 11:36 AM
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I did consider doing that, but I don't know how to connect it. I still need to have coax going from ONT to router (via splitter) because of tv set-top boxes. So do I put those devices right in front of the router, like literally in the same room where it currently is? Will this mess anything up? On the same coax system, I'd then have a MoCa signal from the ONT-->router for the set-top boxes and also a signal from the MoCa device you linked to. I'm assuming they are both on the same approximate band, so would that do anything interference-wise? (I realize the G3100 is also doing that right now, but its made to work with the coax-from-ont-just-for-STBs, etc.) Also, on the same coax system, I'd have the MoCa device you linked to which would be converting a signal to MoCa and I'd also have the G3100 router converting a signal to MoCa (which it is currently doing). Would other MoCa adapters know which of the coax signals they are receiving to convert to ethernet? I don't know if it can handle all that. Plus, 2 of those devices you linked to would be like $120; the 3 eeros were $175 on prime day. Seems like too many variables for where things could go wrong.

But - do you really think it would work?

(Re-reading the above, I hope it all makes sense.)

Also, I spoke with Verizon today - I don't understand how they do business. For me to get gigabit is CHEAPER than the options for 150/150, 200/200, or 400/400. Getting any of those would cost me MORE (not by much, but a little bit) each month! I don't understand companies sometimes!
 
  #4  
Old 10-17-20, 08:12 AM
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Oopey-

The MoCA adapters are very sophisticated and complex. They actually form a network where one adapter becomes the controlling adapter and kind of directs traffic across the coax. All of that signaling is on separate frequencies from the TV band so you donít have to worry about any of the MoCA signals interfering with the TV signals on the cable.

It is pretty complex and they are not just simple devices. The nodes learn about other nodes as they come online and the learn best power levels and bit rates to talk to a given node. So each node actually has a matrix which tells it what bit rates to use to talk to any other given node.

A given node also asks the control node for a slice of time to send packets on the cable, gets the go ahead, sends the packets, et. The protocol even considers that the control node might fail and has stuff in the protocol for another node to take over as the control node, etc. So these arenít simple little devices.

It is based around ethernet packets. The MoCA network looks at source and destinations packet addresses and figures out which MoCA node should get the packet. When a MoCA node gets an ethernet packet to send on the coax, the packet by definition has source/destination addresses, and so when the node sends the packet into the MoCA network, other nodes can then associate that sending node with a given ethernet source address Ė and remember it. So they build up routing tables on the fly.

So you can see these nodes know a lot and learn a lot on the fly.

Anyway, the MoCA network doesnít care or know whether the ethernet packets are from or to a router or any other device. Ethernet packets from the ONT to the router via the MoCA network wonít get mixed up with any other packets.

If the router has the ethernet connection from a MoCa adapter connected to the coax, and the router also has a built-in MoCA adapter connected to the same coax, that is transparent to the MoCA network. That would be just 2 more MoCA adapters on the same network.

I donít know whether the G3100 should stay in place or not Ė I just meant that if you wanted to, you could leave the G3100 in place and use MoCA adapters to take the ethernet from the ONT to the G3100. But there is a cost involved there like you say, and I donít know how well that would integrate with your overall plan anyway. I guess you already know that you donít have one location where you can put the G3100 and have WiFi success Ė but if you did have a good location, you could in fact put the G3100 there and get internet to it via MoCA.
 
  #5  
Old 10-17-20, 09:46 AM
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Hi Zoesdad,

Thanks for the info, but I'm not quite sure that's correct, based on other reading I've done.

But first - thanks for your post on my other comment, but evertyhing I've read is that the router is required to be in the system somehow for the STBs for things like channel guide, video-on-demand, and (possibly) DVR functionality.

Turning to this post - from other reading, it looks like WAN and LAN will interfere with each other if they are on the same coaxial cable. The solution is (apparently) to change the frequency of the WAN to a higher MHz (which is - again apparently - possible on some MoCa adapters). That way the WAN signal will be at one frequency on the coaxial cable, and the LAN signal will be on another frequency on the coaxial cable.

So, I'm not sure its possible to change the frequency on the ones you linked to, but it is apparently possible to change the frequency on the Actiontec ECB6200 device.

What I'm trying to figure out is if this is all actually correct, and I'm also trying to figure out if I can actually do the following:
1. connect the ONT to ECB6200 via coax, and then connect that coax to a splitter and also connect the ONT to the splitter via direct coax. This would mean that the ONT is connected to the splitter two ways: direct coax, and also via ethernet-ECB6200-coax-splitter. This would have the effect of combining one frequency MoCa directly from ONT and a different, higher frequency MoCa from ECB6200 (for WAN). That way, whatever is at the other end of the splitter will read whichever frequency its set to read (e.g., the other ECB6200 would look for the higher frequency and interpret it for WAN and the router itself woudl be looking for the normal frequency coming in to its coax connection for STB and moca adapter stuff.

But I'm not sure I'm right on all this!

I'd never thought about connecting to inputs into a splitter's "output" terminal, but several things I've read says you can do this. It sort of makes sense to me, becuase signals travel both ways on coax, so I wonder if the in/out labeling is just to make it easier for consumers. But maybe its really like a network switch - you plug a LAN ethernet into any of the LAN ports, and then all LAN ports become active.

Thoughts?
 
  #6  
Old 10-17-20, 01:05 PM
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Oopey-

- from other reading, it looks like WAN and LAN will interfere with each other if they are on the same coaxial cable. The solution is (apparently) to change the frequency of the WAN to a higher MHz (which is - again apparently - possible on some MoCa adapters). That way the WAN signal will be at one frequency on the coaxial cable, and the LAN signal will be on another frequency on the coaxial cable
Are you referring to the guy with the G1100 who changed the ECB6200 MoCA frequency so it didn’t conflict with the G1100 MoCA frequency for the LAN? (link below).He was using a pair of ECB6200’s to connect the ONT ethernet port to his G1100 router ethernet port. He said both the ECB6200 and the G1100 defaulted to 1150 MHz so he made a change.

I think Actiontec support recommends that the default settings are not changed on the ECB6200, and that makes sense given the way MoCA works. It doesn’t seem necessary. Although apparently via the browser you can get into the ECB6200 and change frequencies.

I think this is what the guy was doing (if this is what you are referring to):

The MoCA 2.0 frequency plan defines, within the new extended band D, two sub-bands for independent network operation. These sub-bands comprise the D-low and D-high, as follows:

Sub-band D-Low (DL): 1125 to 1225 MHz edge to edge (100 MHz wide)

Sub-band D-High (DH): 1350 to 1675 MHz edge to edge (325 MHz wide
above is MoCA spec info

It looks like he was setting up two networks to minimize “conflict”:

(1) one to handle the traffic from the internet, so those 2 ECB6200 adapters would work in the D-High band (he set them at 1400Mhz) and would form one MoCA network.

(2) the other MoCA network would be using D-Low band, the 1150 MHz band and would include all the other MoCA devices.

So in that case it does seem it should in fact be helpful and the throughput should (or could) be better: the packets would be spread out in two different MoCA networks that can operate in parallel. But he used the term “conflict”. I think that is misleading. He really means that there is a way to spread out the load on the cable a better way than the default way, even though the default way would work, and if the throughput is acceptable the default way you are done and don’t need to change anything. I think that’s what he really meant – (lol- put a lot of words in his mouth).

But is that of any concern at all with MoCA 2.5? It doesn’t seem like it would be. You won’t get close to a Gigabit from the ONT and MoCA 2.5 can handle up to 2.5 Gigabits. I don’t see how a MoCA bottleneck can possibly happen in this case.

Maybe I’m missing something here – but just my 2 cents!

(I didn’t know you needed a router with Verizon STB’s. I had to double check here as a sanity check- lol. I have Comcast and my STB doesn’t use a router and I get On Demand, ec., but I only have one STB and 2 TV’s with adapters. So thinking about it I can see why I don’t need a router. My bad)

https://forums.verizon.com/t5/Fios-I...Bs/td-p/877845
 
  #7  
Old 10-18-20, 09:20 AM
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Oopey –

I guess I went off on that tangent pointing out that I thought if you wanted to you could use adapters and leave the G3100 where it is, after you mentioned that you had to move the G3100. I don’t know how that would fit into the overall plan anyway. Maybe it actually would be better to move the G3100 near the ONT as you were thinking – depending on other factors - I guess having to do with the WiFi situation in the house and what extenders you are going to use and where those are placed, etc.

IMHO I think you need to do a layout of the house and decide what capabilities you need in every room, considering roaming, and expansion, etc. if you haven’t already done that (but it sounds like you have in fact given it a lot of thought). Isn’t it true that some people forget about WiFi when they use MoCA? Maybe I have that wrong. I guess it depends on what/where is cabled and the devices you already have.

Anyway, does this pic represent what you mean by using the splitters as combiners? As far as I know you can in fact combine signals like that. When you turn the splitter around it becomes a combiner. It seems to me if you would use bi-directional splitters which I think most are, and I think the MoCA splitters are – I think it would work. I think with splitter-1 you would not have signal loss as they combine (so I’ve read) but splitter-2 you will get some amount of signal loss as it splits. But that is normal.

It seems like it would work to me. Each of the two ports on the G3100 would see the combined signal. As you say, the coax WAN port on the G3100 would be looking at the frequencies (C4, D1..) to communicate with the ONT and STB’s and other devices, while the ECB6200 collocated with the G3100 would be looking at the frequency matching the frequency of the other ECB6200 collocated with the ONT. So it seems to me that the G3100 would handle all the STB’s as normal.

BUT … it does make me a little dizzy. That says if Verizon turns on ethernet at the ONT, it somehow still sends packets on the coax for the STB’s, but sends other packets out on the ethernet interface. So you have ethernet and coax at the same time at the ONT, and the coax still handles the STB’s? Don’t the STB’s just get internet packets? My elderly brain is in overload – I’m probably all wrapped around the axle here missing the obvious. Time for some coffee –LOL!

(I guess the STB packets would go through the ethernet interface)


 
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Old 10-19-20, 05:43 PM
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Hi Zoesdad,

Yep, your diagram pretty well spells it out. However, I actually got some of the goCoax 2.5 adapters because for about the same price, I get 2.5 instead of 2.0.

I actually have given it a lot of thought, and I didn't forget wifi. That's actually one of the reasons for all this. In particular, I got the Eero mesh wifi 3-pack, and I want to make sure they each backhaul via some wiring instead of just wifi. So the 1st Eero will be connected to the router; the 2nd Eero will be connected via coax with the goCoax 2.5 device; I then do have a run of Cat 5e in the house from the 2nd Eero to where I want the 3rd Eero, so the 3rd Eero will be connected via ethernet/Cat 5e to the 2nd Eero (well, to an 8-port gigabit switch I have there also).

All this being said, I broke down and have decided to move the router and connect it via ethernet to the ONT. It involves me running ethernet up the wall of the garage, across the ceiling of the garage, down the other wall of the garage, and into the wall - and it pops out right where the coax for our main family room tv is. So the router will be connected by both coax to the coax network (which is the ONT coax connected to a MoCa 2.0 splitter, which then "outs" to lots of places) and also via direct ethernet wire to the router (I got SSTP Cat 6a for this).

My wife really doesn't want to see the router near the tv, so I have to hide it behind the media center furniture - its in a corner, so there is room behind - but it also means I need to clean up the mess of wires back there so there's room!

Anyway, thanks again for all the input.

PS - I was able to change the frequency on the goCoax - its fairly straightforward, but I also read that there might still be interference with LAN because they may be scanning at the edges which may overlap.
 
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Old 10-20-20, 01:47 PM
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Sounds like you have a good plan. If you get a chance one of these days after you have everything in place and are running for a while, maybe you could post back and tell us how it turned out and your analysis. I bet that would be very helpful to all of us Ė but only if you have the time.

Good luck!!!!
 
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Old 10-20-20, 02:44 PM
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I've got the new ONT and the G1100 "blade", wired with both ethernet and coax from the ONT.
There's 1 coax from ONT, then 1-in 4-out splitter that connects to G1100 router and to the set-top boxes.
on 2 of the 3 set-top boxes, I've got additional splitters to provide WAN/LAN through the old Mi424WR routers.

So, at least in my setup, the coax/MOCA are all using the same connection.
 
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Old 10-20-20, 03:08 PM
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Hi Hal,

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

If you have the an ethernet wire going from the ONT to the router, then your WAN is being provided from the ONT box to the router by ethernet only. MoCa doesn't play a part in that at all. Your LAN is being provided over coax/MoCa. I understand you have coax going from ONT to router (albeit through splitters), but I believe that's only supplying information for your STBs for channel guide, video-on-demand, etc., type stuff.

Does that sound right, or did you mean something different? (Or did I misunderstand something you said and/or the technology...which is entirely possible!)

Thanks.
 
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Old 10-20-20, 05:17 PM
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At least for my setup, ONT over MOCA to main Router supplies WAN to set top boxes.

However, using splitters, I'm getting both WAN and LAN over MOCA using splitters at the set top boxes, which provide signals to re-purposed Mi424WR routers, reset to act as MOCA access points.
 
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Old 10-20-20, 05:43 PM
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Hi Hal,

I don't think the set-top boxes take in a WAN signal, which is why the router needs to be in the setup. Only the router can accept a WAN signal, and it "translates" it into a LAN signal. That's why even when you have ONT connected by ethernet to the router, you still need to have the ONT connected by coax to the router - the ONT sends the STB info/stuff (e.g., video on demand, channel guide) via coax to the router, and the router then "translates" it to LAN and sends it to the STB. That's why you can see the STB on your network (at least, I think that's why). To test it out, disconnect the router from the system and see if the STB still work to give you video on demand, channel guide, etc. They will still give you a picture/sound, but no info about the shows.

As to whether you can send both WAN and LAN over the same coax without changing the frequency of one of them - based on my recent research, you can't. They would somehow interfere with each other. Changing the frequency is the only way (and even then, there may be some overlap in the frequencies at the edges that may cause too much interference).

But (big but) - I learned all this over the past maybe 2 weeks. I could easily be wrong about this. But testing out the WAN-to-STB thing should be easy - just disconnect the router from coax and see what happens. I'm assuming I'm right about not getting any data, but I could easily be wrong!

Anyone else reading these know which way his system is actually working?
 
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Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM
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hi guys Ė

Take all of this with a grain of salt. I was going to do MoCA myself a while back, but it turned out I could get along without it. There seems to be a lot of information lacking out there. But I think this maybe this is the way it works (maybe -lol):

(1) A set of MoCA adapters on the same coax cable can form a MoCA network. Each MoCA adapter becomes a node in the MoCA network.

(2) The MoCA scheme calls for one node (usually the first on) to be the Network Coordinator(NC).

(3) The NC controls the traffic flow across the MoCA network (see 4).

(4) The MoCA network operates on a single channel and the channel is shared among all nodes via a Time Division Multiplexing scheme. So nodes have to take turns communicating with each other. Two nodes communicate at a time across the network.

(5) The MoCA channels represent frequencies 900-1675 MHz and are broken down into channels 50 MHz wide, labeled C1-C4,D1-D10. These frequencies are above the TV frequencies and wonít interfere with TV on the cable.

(6) The above indicates that there can be multiple MoCA networks on the same cable, and in case of Verizon there are in fact multiple networks on the same cable. Each network will use a different channel to communicate.

(7) The Verizon ONT has a MoCA adapter and the Verizon router also has a MoCA adapter (a MoCA 2.5 adapter) which can handle 2 channels at the same time, that is, it can operate on two MoCA networks at the same time.

(8) So the ONT MoCA adapter, and one half (if you will) of the Verizon Routers 2.5 MoCA adapter, form a MoCA network which operates on channel C4 (I think C4 is about 1000 MHz). This channel carries the WAN information between the ONT and the router. So this MoCA network only has 2 nodes and is referred to as the MoCA WAN network by Verizon (and I guess others). But as far as the MoCA scheme is concerned, this is just another MoCA network that happens to have 2 nodes. WAN and LAN mean nothing to the MoCA scheme.

(9) The other half (if you will ) of the routers 2.5 MoCA adapter forms a second MoCA network between the router and the set top boxes and other devices, each of which has its own internal MoCA adapter. So this MoCA network will have a varying number of nodes. This MoCA network is referred to the MoCA LAN network because it is on the LAN side of the router. But as far as the MoCA scheme is concerned, this is just another MoCA network with multiple nodes. WAN and LAN mean nothing to the MoCA scheme.

(10) The channel for this second MoCA network (MoCA LAN) is one of the channels D1-D10 and usually is D1 which is (I think) about 1150 MHz.

(11) So these 2 MoCA networks (MoCA WAN and MoCA LAN) can operate in parallel on the cable and not interfere with each other. Each network is operating on a different channel (i.e. a different frequency) and the channel for the given MoCA network is shared among the nodes in that network via a Time Division Multiplexing scheme.

(11) It looks like MoCA 2.5 can guarantee something like 2.5 Gigabits across a given network. But you can see because of the Time Division Multiplexing, that the bandwidth by definition is shared among all the nodes in the network. As you add more nodes the bandwidth goes down for every node.

Iím extremely fuzzy on the MoCA channel selection. It seems like the Verizon Router and ONT are just preset to use channel C4 for the WAN. I could see how that would work since Verizon has control of both ends (ONT and Verizon Router) they can just default to any channel they want for their interface. But all kinds of other MoCA products can be added to the MoCA LAN network formed with the router. Somehow they have to set to the same channel.

The other channel (MoCA LAN) on the routers 2.5 MoCA adapter I think would just default to channel D1. But Iím not sure. But it does seem to me, that it has to be taken into consideration that other various MoCA devices can be added to the network and somehow all devices have to be on the same channel for the network to work Ė assuming new devices would want to be in the same MoCA network as the router.

It also looks like the standard MoCA adapters you buy are preset to channel D1 and you donít have to set anything. That seems to be the case since the MoCA setup never seems to call for channel setup. It seems like it is all plug-and-play. For example, I donít think you specify a MoCA channel for TiVo Ė that is, I donít think you do(maybe thatís wrong). Do you have to tell Actiontec MoCA adapters what channel to use? I didnít think you did.

Anyway, all the MoCA devices that need to talk to the router have to be on the same channel that the router is on, i.e., be on the MoCA LAN channel.

I think there is something called a MoCA ďbeacon channel broadcastĒ to help new devices get onto the MoCA network. I wonder if that has a required channel for the network or something like that. Maybe the beacon broadcasts something like ďan invitation to join the networkĒ with ďthis is our channelĒ ? Maybe itís something like that. I think I have the MoCA spec somewhere. Iíll see if I can find out how it works.

I canít guarantee that any of the above is correct, I may have a gross misunderstanding Ė but it sounds pretty good Ė LOL!


 
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Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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That all sounds about right to me.

As my ONT right now has only a coax connection to my router (we are getting gigabit and ethernet terminal turned on, on Monday), I think this means I have the following MoCa networks.

1. MoCa WAN between ONT (MoCa 1.1) and router (MoCa 2.5, so working at 1.1 level), operating on C4 / 1000 Mhz; and

2. MoCa LAN between router and STBs + other adapters I have, operating on D1 / 1150 Mhz (no idea what MoCa version the STBs are, but my adapters are also 1.1, I believe)


When Monday comes and goes, I will have the following three connections:

1. MoCa WAN between ONT (MoCa 1.1) and router (MoCa 2.5), operating on C4 / 1000 Mhz;

2. MoCa LAN between router (2.5) and STBs + other adapters (2.5 - just got the goCoax!) I have, operating on D1 / 1150 Mhz; and

3. ethernet WAN between ONT and router.

So maybe there will actually be two WANs going, one over ethernet and one over coax? My head hurts. Anyway, fingers crossed that it all works!

Also, I did not have to change any settings with the two Actionetec MoCa adapters. They were simply plug-and-play, and I was amazed at how easy it was. (I did need to go into their settings in order to change the wifi SSID/password, but that's obviously an entirely different thing than what we are talking about here).

Thanks!
 
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