How do I attach a ledger to brick?

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  #1  
Old 12-18-05, 11:07 AM
snurfin
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How do I attach a ledger to brick?

I live in Dallas and I am looking to add a covered back patio. The patio cover would be 15' wide X 13' deep with 6X6 cedar posts and a 9' finished ceiling. My house is 100% brick and two story and I am not sure how to go about attaching a ledger to the house. I have been told that I could use lag anchors in the brick to attach the ledger??

As far as a rim joist is concerned, all I have is a 2x4 header plate with I-beans setting on top for the rafters to which I would have nothing to attach to.

Other then doing a free standing or removing brick to find the wall studs does anyone have anyone suggestions if the lag anchors won't work.

Thanks,
John
 

Last edited by snurfin; 12-18-05 at 11:24 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-18-05, 11:38 AM
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How do I attach a ledger to brick?

Is the house wall a structural clay brick wall or is it a concrete brick wall? Some of the walls that people think are large brick are really specialized concrete block.

If it is brick, how thick is the wall it and how many layers of brick?

Are you planning to attach it to the top courses of brick below the second floor?

You need to know how the house is built to attach in the best way. If it is really solid brick, you could attach it almost anywhere if you use the correct fasteners.

You probably will need a permit, so any engineer could handle everthing including best location and method.

Dick
 
  #3  
Old 12-18-05, 11:49 AM
snurfin
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It's your standard brick home with 3" wide acme brick attached with brick ties to the house. I am concerned that lag anchors would pull the brick down.

Would an option be to find the wall studs and run a lag through the brick to the wall studs to hang the ledger? and if so how far would you recommend going into the stud?

Thanks again for your input.
John
 
  #4  
Old 12-18-05, 01:46 PM
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How do I attach a ledger to brick?

Forget about my earlier comments about attachment to your brick. I was assuming you had a masonry home and not a wood frame with a masonry veneer. If it was masonry, you would have no problems.

You cannot attach a roof to your brick veneer for structural purposes. You must attach it to the structural portion, which is the wood frame. After you have the structural support, you can attach between the brick and the addition for weatherproofing purposes.

I understand your desire to eliminate the clutter of the columns and digging for footings for a separate structure for your covered patio.

If you want to hang the roof from your house you should contact an engineer to come up with a detail to satisfy yourself and the local building code people.

The roof loads for your patio roof (dead load, live load, wind, etc.) are not great, but they must be taken into account.

Dick
 

Last edited by Concretemasonry; 12-18-05 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Typo
  #5  
Old 12-18-05, 05:31 PM
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Make the cover FREE-STANDING!! So much for any issues about "how to attach it"!
 
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Old 12-18-05, 06:06 PM
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Other then free standing I don't know of any suggestions.
Around here we are not allowed to attach to brick veneer.
 
  #7  
Old 12-18-05, 06:47 PM
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We aren't allowed to attach to a brick veneer either -- THAT'S NOT STRUCTURAL!!
 
  #8  
Old 12-21-05, 03:02 PM
JCT
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Hey snurfin,

My .02
Locate the stud lines on the interior wall using an electronic stud finder (or a 4 penny finish nail test driven in just above the baseboard---putty holes later.) Transfer the stud centerlines of these stud locations to the outside face of the brick via the nearest window with a magic marker. Drill holes the exact dia. of the lag screw (9" long x 3/8" dia. screws would work OK) straight through the brick (only) Drill a second "starter" hole (using a 1/4" dia. spade bit with extension adapter) through the wall sheathing and part way into the stud. Hammer-in a lag screw and test that you are gripping solid wood to insure you are dead center of the stud. Transfer these hole locations to your header joist(s) then attach.

Installation tip: use 1/2" dia. hole through outside header board so your transfer marks don't have to exactly line-up with the brick.
 
  #9  
Old 12-21-05, 03:32 PM
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snurfin,

You can attach THROUGH a brick veneer, as JCT described (assuming that you use the proper size hardware to do so and that your local bldg. dept. OKs the meathod), but you can't attach TO the brick veneer.
 
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Old 12-21-05, 04:11 PM
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How do I attach a ledger to brick?

How are you going to get a good attachment through the brick? - Once you start to tighten the lag screws, you will begin the crush the wall ties and the mortar that always slops into the cavity between the brick and the sheating. This will be irregular and vary along the length of the ledger. Then you have to worry about leakage, flashing and mold.

Structurally, the screw will also be inadequate to support the ledger the ledger. You are talking about a screw sticking out of the stud, through the sheathing (which may or may not give strength and support), then throught the gap between the brick and sheathing (which gives not suppot), through the oversize hole in the brick (which gives no support) and then to the ledger you hope will stay up.

This works out to cantilevering or hanging out the ledger on a 3/8" screw a distance of more than 3 1/2". Simply, the screw will bend until it hits the brick and the non-bearing brick is asked to support the ledger, which you are attempting to avoid since it is a violation of the code.

Quite simply, it might look good, but it does not meet code and and does not have enough reliable strength, no matter how close you put the screws.

Dick
 
  #11  
Old 12-21-05, 07:49 PM
JCT
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Quite simply this method DOES meet code and is the recommended attachment method by building officials under this circumstance. As far as "crushing" the brick, the lag screw attachments need only be reasonably tightened. The ledger's bearing here is indeed the masonry but the attachment is into the house framing.

I've been a G.C. since 1976. I've attached the ledgers on well over 100 decks/porch roofs through brickwork in this fashion---(Albeit with larger screws through the outer band joist on deck floors.) Of couse the "preferred" method is with thru-bolts; but lag screws are an acceptable alternative...

Check with your local building inspector as per his requirements then please respond...

JCT
 
  #12  
Old 12-21-05, 08:11 PM
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How do I attach a ledger to brick?

snurfin -

Run it by your local building official and see if it meets his approval. Depending on his experiences, it could.

As JCT said, the ledger bearing is on the masonry veneer, which has no structural support. I would never hang something on something else that is not supported.

If you go with this method, be especially careful about flashing and water penetration at and around the ledger. In my 40 years in the masonry industry, I have seen far too many walls cracked by ambitous well-meaning attempts to "make it strong". I see many of these problems while doing moisture investigations.

As an engineer, I would not design this type of connection even though the loads probably are quite light. I don't think any of the engineers that have worked under me would have approved it either.

On better homes, I have seen some of the veneer removed and the ledger attached directly to the wood structure, which is ideal and much easier to flash and prevent moisture intrusion.

Good luck!

Dick
 
  #13  
Old 12-22-05, 03:56 PM
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I've only run into it one time, and I had to make the attachment EXACTLY like the bdg. official required. I couldn't lag into the studs. I had to attach a 1X2 steel tube across the studs the length of the ledger and thru bolt through that (oversized holes thru the brick veneer) with nuts and washers on BOTH sides of the tube. That prvented the bolts from putting any pressure on the veneer. For all that trouble, forget it and just make the deck freestanding!!
 
  #14  
Old 12-22-05, 04:29 PM
JCT
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Don't you guys get it???

It's a simple "PATIO ROOF" Snurfin is looking to attach to his house. No "LIVE LOAD" No "DECK"... just a roof cover that needs to be adequately fastened to the wood substructure. There should be NO NEED for structural steel at the attachment point or Engineers drawings required to comply with codes.

Snurfin, please contact your building inspection department as the the method earlier described, then kindly post a follow-up ----NUF SAID


JCT
 
  #15  
Old 12-22-05, 04:38 PM
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OK JCT, I partially misread the post. I thought you were talking about a deck. Sorry about that.

Same thing applies -- I would make the patio cover freestanding.

You are mistaken in thinking that there is no live load involved!! Snow may not be an issue, but WIND certainly is!! And you are ABSOLUTELY not going to attach it to a brick veneer.

The big half of my business is installing patio covers -- I KNOW what's required to get them designed so that I can pull a permit for them and to have them pass inspection.
 
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Old 01-02-06, 01:10 AM
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I may be new, but I know what works where Im from and cant help Myself

here in Az this issue is confronted on an almost daily basis. whether it is a brick veneer or a stucco finish over stick framing
You may not like it but teh correct proceedure would be to remove teh veneer, or stucco, using either a mortor blade on your circliar saw, or chisal ( for mortor) ( dont forget Your glasses and gloves as well as long heavy sleeved shirt for safety from debris) you can make clean cuts using either as long as you have patience.dont try to force teh blade, let it travel slow on its own, then you can attach Your ledger to teh framing using the appropriate simpsontite fasteners. its how you desire to trim ( clean it up) latter thats going to be your next question. with brick veneer its a simple case of setting your new framework around teh ledger, and setting teh new veneer up You liking....or in teh case of stucco applying a thin scratchcoat and trying to blend teh new and old texture together. this an be tricky for teh novice, but witha little patience can be achieved.
jowever unless you have an existing ledgerplate, I do not recommend that you use lags through Your 2*4 or 2*6 studs, as all You will accomplish is spintering teh studs and weakening teh structual strength.
if removing teh venneer is not an option, than by all means.go with a freestanding structure, just make sure You footers are deep enough, and reseach the wind shears in Your area for support strenght.
I hope I didnt step on anyones toes here....
been in teh industrry since before Kingwood was developed outside Houston.
and since in florida ( Hurricane Andrew) and Az since 91 ( Ive seen the monsoon winds)
never replaced a structure that carried My name.
neither has anyone else
 
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