Ledger onto house for deck Q


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Old 09-01-06, 10:17 AM
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Ledger onto house for deck Q

OK, went to the city bldg inspector for bldg an 8' x 8' deck on the back of my house.

My question: I'm planning to have a ledger run 8' along the base of the wall of the house. I was going to drill right through the cedar shingles into sill/studs. But, inspector says I must remove shingles to reveal wall(?) and attach ledger that way. Ugh - I was NOT planning to do that, and I have no clue what will happen when I start removing the bottom row of shingles.
1.) How should I go about removing them? Band saw? Crow bar?
2.) What will removing the shingles reveal? Just bare sill/studs? Or is there plywood covering those?

Help, I'm scared!

-Woostah
 
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Old 09-01-06, 04:04 PM
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Removing the siding is the proper way to get a good flat, secure attachment point for your ledger board. Most likely you will just find a layer of OSB covered with Tyvek (hopefully), or at worst black insulation board. You will be cutting back on the siding directly over the rim joist of your house, and should not encounter any studs at that point.
Determine the exact height of the finished deck floor, which should be lower than your door sill to prevent infiltration of water. At that point you can either remove the shingles or snap a line and cut the shingles. You will install your framework, flash under the siding and onto the top of your framework before you install your deckboards. Your last deckboard should slide under your remaining siding.
Post back if we can help. There are enough pros on the forum who are more than glad to assist with problems you may encounter.
Where are you located? It may help for us to know that, as there are differences that we can pick up on.
 
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Old 09-02-06, 03:41 AM
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Woostah,

When you ask how to go about removing the siding, ask what you'll find under it, and finish by stating that it scares you, it leads me to believe that you are getting in over your head. I'm going to suggest that you make the deck freestanding and leave the siding alone.

At 8 X 8, that is going to require two extra footings and one additional beam to support the side next to the house. But it elimnates cutting and removing the siding, saves you having to flash and put it back once the ledger is in place, and there is no chance of a leak in that wall (which is exactly what you'll have if you don't flash it properly).
 
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Old 09-03-06, 06:27 PM
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Mike: how do the free standing decks do as far as stability goes? We almost always have to attach ours to existing structures because one dimension will invariably be 14' off the ground, and bracing would be impossible to keep them from swaying. Are most of yours less than 8' off the ground?
 
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Old 09-04-06, 04:57 AM
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Larry,

Yes, most of the decks around here have less than 8' post height. There are 3 factors that tend to keep them that way -- earthquakes, wildfires, and erosion.

Most of the areas here that are steep enough so that a deck would become 14' high are in a "Hillside Development Area". (That's a wildfire issue) CDF or the local fire marshall simply won't approve a wood framed structure like that. Those decks usually end up being multi-level, to keep them closer to the ground, and less suseptible to a fire. Another way around it is to use metal framing.

Woostah's 8 X 8 deck isn't going to be 14' in the air, unless it's a second story deck. From his post, it obvious that he would be in over his head trying to cut into his siding to attach a ledger and getting it properly flashed so that he doesn't create a leak. That's why I suggested free standing. Two additional footings and posts, one additional beam, and no leak in the wall.
 
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Old 09-04-06, 05:44 PM
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Aaah, build them like they did the interstate in Glenwood canyon, huh? Beautiful compromise with what people need and what the naturalists insist on. Do you use standard cross bracing in all directions, and how does it look, or how do you make it aesthetically pleasing?
 
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Old 09-04-06, 05:47 PM
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Hey Chandler and Lefty, thanks for the replies. A couple things - I really just added the "I'm scared" to catch y'all's attention. And I was in over my head as soon as I went to the building inspector :-)

Inspector says the deck must be attached to the house - not floating. I'm not expecting Tyvek - house was built in '51.

So, two follow-up questions:

Must I absolutely hit floor joists, or is just the rim joist enough? (You're right, I'm not up high enough to hit wall studs).

And, as for flashing, the inspector says he requires 2 layers of flashing - one between the ledger and wall, and one over the ledger... Sound right to you?

Alright, if you can get back to me on the q's above, that'd be great - I break ground on Thurs.

-Woostah

P.S. Other details: I'm in MA. No door above my ledger (it's off to the side, as I'm connecting to an existing porch.)
 
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Old 09-06-06, 07:47 PM
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Unless you are as unlucky as I am sometimes, you won't hit the ends of your joisting inside the house. You will want to bolt the rimjoist to the banding of the house at regular intervals. I usually do it every 32", so it will be between every other joist on 16 centers. Local code may require them 36". Use galvanized 1/2" x 6" carriage bolts, washers and nuts to attach this board. I am looking at our local news, and some numbnut built a deck 10' off the ground without bolting it, and it fell with several people on it, injuring a couple of them seriously. You can't legislate stupidiy.
Flashing can't be emphasized enough. If he says 2 layers, you will do two layers, just as he requests, right?
Good luck, and let's break ground!!! Post some pix.
 
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Old 09-07-06, 09:55 AM
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Thanks, Larry.

I think we're set. Got the shingles cut, pulled off some old insul paper, located what look to be floor joists as there are nailheads every 16" through the wallboard.

Dumb question here: You say to use washers and nuts with the carriage bolts for the ledger. How the heck do you use nuts if you can't get on the inside of the house? We're just planning to bolt it in and have washers. OK?

New question: How high to cut up the shingles? Should first deckboard go under the shingle?

Flashing: found the copper flashing the inspector requested. Will use double layer as requested by inspector - one between ledger and house, and one over ledger.

-Woostah
 
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Old 09-07-06, 04:48 PM
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Woostah, Aaah, the old I can't get to my inside rim joist trick......Use 1/2" x 5" galvanized lag bolts and washers. You will want to cut the shingles fairly carefully to where the top of the deckboard just slides under it, since your flashing will be under the deckboard, and not nailed, right?
Post some pix after you get it going.
 
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Old 09-07-06, 09:09 PM
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Larry,

WHEN I do a deck that is ledgered to the house, I don't use lag bolts. My preference is to through bolt it, but when that can't happen, I use GRK's or LedgerLok's. Either is stronger than a 1/2" lag bolt, and both are code approved. The trick is finding them. I know that HD doesn't carry either, and we are still 5 weeks away from the opening of Lowe's here in Redding. (I will be in Roseburg Or in a few weeks -- I'll check the blue box there for them.
 
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Old 09-07-06, 09:29 PM
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Woostah,

Let's make sure that you do the flashing right so that it works. The first flashing, of course, is the most important, and the trick is to slide it up behind the remaining shingles (or siding) as far as you can, then let it hang down behind where the ledger will be. You are going to have problems sliding it up behind the shingles very far because it's gonna run into nails. If you can't get it at least 4" to 6" up behind the shingles because of the nails, cut small slots in the piece of copper where those nails are so it will slide farther up.

Once the ledger is in place and before the deck boards are installed, your counter flashing can only go up behind the shingles as far as the deck boards are thick. That's all the room you will have between the top of the ledger and the bottom of the shingles.
 
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Old 09-12-06, 07:23 PM
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Hey guys, Thanks for all of your help. It really came in handy.

It turned out I only needed one layer of flash, between wall and ledger. Had that in place when the inspector came to inspect the footings. He said, "you know what? You're sufficiently flashed". Sweet, I said.
Oh, and here's an interesting story I didn't share with you earlier. I start digging my holes for my posts, right? Four inches in and BAM! I hit a solid layer of concrete. No cracks, no give, nothing. I go over 8 ft for my second post - BAM! same concrete slab!! What the F? Ugh, looks like no deck for me, I'm thinking. Bldg inspector sees it, he goes, "yeah, it's probably an old sewer tank (I'm on city sewer now). But you can go ahead and build on top of it." So, no 4' post holes and no 8" diameter sonic(?) tubes for me!
Best news, though, is that the damn thing is done, that's D-U-N! It looks sa-weet! 8' x 8', with a kick-ass DIY railing. Solid as a mofo, and level as all hell. Joke of the wknd was, "hey, what's it mean when the bubble is between the two lines??"

I'll try to get some pics up,

-Woostah
 
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Old 09-12-06, 09:08 PM
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Woostah,

I don't want to rain on your parade, but let me tell you about old (abandonded) septic tank lids, and the size of hole that they create IF they collapse. Trust me, (and my 5' X 10' X 5' deep hole), you are going to be well served to cave that lid in and MAKE SURE that the old tank is FULL OF ROCK!!!

(BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!!)
 
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Old 09-13-06, 04:55 AM
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Mike: I googled the ledgerloks, and they don't appear to be much larger than the timberloks we use for landscape and 6x6 timbers. Do you have to increase the number of loks since the size is so much smaller? I like the idea of not having to either use a rachet and socket, or an impact driver. I think I will check with local authorities to see if they are educated on them yet (takes a while in these rural areas). Thanks for the info.
Guess we'll wait to see about the septic tank lid thingy.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 12:29 PM
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Lefty,

Well, you definitely have me there. That's the exact sound of a thunderstorm ending someone's parade... I hope that sucker doesn't bust through. But, the only thing I could do (short of excavating the whole thing) was get the green light from the inspector on the footings, which I did, and get the sign-off from the inspector on the final, which I did. If the thing does fall in, at least no one can say I didn't go to the proper authorities!!

In the meantime, I can enjoy a cold beer (or three) on my nice new deck :-)

-Woostah
 
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Old 09-13-06, 04:10 PM
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Woostah,

Actually, there is no need to excavate the old tank. If you can locate the access covers on the lid, simply remove them and fill the tank with rock or gravel. That SHOULD have been done when it was abandoned and the house was connected to the sewer, but it probably wasn't.

Larry,

The Ledger Loks look small, but don't let the size fool you. They have about 1/3 more shear strength than a 1/2" lag bolt. In SYP, the Ledger Loks's lateral design value is 292 lbs. per fastener. A 1/2" lag bolt's LDV is 230 lbs. per fastener. They are IBC/IRC compliant, report ESR-1078. They are usually spaced the same as lag bolts.
 
 

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