Patio slab, mudjack or rip apart

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Old 12-14-11, 03:44 PM
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Patio slab, mudjack or rip apart

I've determined my patio poured slab slants towards my house at the North East corner.

Typically during windy rain storms a small trickle of water appears along my poured concrete wall (4in long by 2 in wide) at the same spot. I have a rec room downstairs.

We had a forecast for rain with wind today so I covered my entire patio which is 12 x 12 with a plastic tarp, taped it and pitched it away. I added a extra piece of tarp on the North East corner of the patio.

There was NO WATER trickling in my basement today at or near the problem area.

My dilema:

1) Should I mudjack the patio slab? Eventually the patio will start to sink & pitch towards my house after 3-5 years because of the frozen midwest ground.

2) Pull the slab out, grade the former slab area with brown landscape dirt, add fine street gravel, then pavers of my choice?

Will pulling the slab out cause a bigger problem with a basement leak? Reason being the former slab area is now exposed, but graded + pitched with dirt/gravel away from my house?
 
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Old 12-15-11, 07:38 AM
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Can't you seal the patio where it meets the wall? Since only a small amount of water enters, that might be all you need.
 
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Old 12-15-11, 08:36 AM
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Did that. Water is saturating ground on north east corner of patio
 
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Old 12-15-11, 08:43 AM
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How's it getting to the ground?
 
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Old 12-15-11, 08:54 AM
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All water is moving along patio into the north east spot. It must be like a bath tub filling up below ground level at this spot.
 
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Old 12-15-11, 09:00 AM
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So the water is dropping off the patio onto the ground and leaking in from there?

If so, is this ground between the patio and house or to the side of the patio relative to the house? If the latter, seems to me you could do some grading there to move the water away.
 
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Old 12-15-11, 09:31 AM
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Currently i have wood chips there. I could replace it with brown landscape soil. To avoid the water from pooling below ground along the new graded area i will just go ahead and grade my entire house towards the north (40ft)
 
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Old 12-15-11, 09:58 AM
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Wood chips are fine but do you have plastic underneath them and the ground below that sloped away from the house?
 
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Old 12-15-11, 05:41 PM
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Neither unfortunately. What type of plastic should we place and how should we place it? I have knockout roses back there at the
moment. The ground isn't sloped away from the house. So I should get brown topsoil and pitch it away 1' per foot I imagine? Overall
next Spring should I still mudjack the patio slab?

After rain the water pools around the patio step.
 
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Old 12-16-11, 09:16 AM
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What if I don't mudjack the patio and just add brown topsoil 1' per
foot next to the foundation?
 
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Old 01-08-12, 09:36 PM
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Before going the mudjacking route (as you might find it quite pricey), or removing and replacing the entire slab, consider doing a thin-bonded concrete overlay on your patio. Sloped appropriately away from the inside corner, and installed correctly, it will do everything you hope to accomplish with a minimum of cost and effort. Certainly a lot faster and easier than complete removal and replacement, and could also be cheaper than mudjacking.
 
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Old 01-10-12, 08:29 AM
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I am not sure the overlay is the answer unless you are talking about a 2" depth or more. the thin overlays do not typically hold up very well in the midwest due to freeze/thaw issues. The mudjack may be a problem as well if the patio slab was doweled into the house when it was poured. I suspect it is not and the backfilled ground near the house has settled over the years and that is why your slab is back-pitched. however it is possible that the patio is doweled in and stable but the other end of the slab (away from the house) has heaved due to freeze/thaw over the years. First thing you would need to verify is the attachement of the slab to the house, if any exists. If no such attachement exists then mudjacking may be a good long term solution for the issue.
 
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Old 01-10-12, 09:51 AM
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Mudjacking is probably the best choice for your situation and flat yard.

Wood chips or "brown" soil do nothing than hold the moisture until it can soak into the backfill and show up in the samll spot in your basement you are concerned about.

Apparently, your slab is not attached to the foundation and it is a victim of the normal settlement due to poor backfill materials or placement methods. This occurs over time and is a common problem.

Mudjacking involved making core holes in the slab and pumping in an enhanced "mud" (aggregate and some cement or lime) to level the slab. the holes are them patched, but will be somewhat noticeable due to the difference in materials and the amount of curing time difference between the slab and the fill. I have seen heavy 5 step "stoops"/landings mudjacked over a foot ot two because of the settlement of the poor backfill.

You should find a number of mudjacking contractors in your area and then ask for references. - Do not necessarily take the low bidder, but pay attention to the length of time they have been doing business. - It is surprising how quickly the can come in and level for drainage.

Dick
 
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Old 01-10-12, 07:55 PM
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dinosaur 1:

A few things to think about:

1. Contrary to what others may have said, thin bonded concrete overlays are not affected (or compromised) by freeze-thaw conditions any more than conventional concrete is.

2. The optimal thickness for successful overlay performance is between 1-1/4" and 3-1/2". Those figures are from an early FHWA Transportation Research Report, published in the early 80s. If you want the exact report number, I can retrieve it for you with a bit of digging in my reference archives.

3. Since 1970, I have personally and professionally been involved in the design, placement and inspection of literally hundreds of concrete bridge deck overlays, for multiple State DOTs. This includes conventional superstructure concrete, latex-modified concrete, low-slump concrete, silica fume concrete, and polymer-modified concrete.

4. You would be doing yourself a favor to consider a concrete overlay, from both a cost and performance standpoint. My rough arithmetic for your patio shows you needing 2 C.Y. of delivered concrete--allowing 25% waste, an average thickness of 2", and a very conservative scarification factor of 75%. Approximate delivered cost of same should be no more than $500, and quite possibly considerably less, even with a reasonable small load charge. I suspect your mudjacking quotes will exceed that figure considerably.

5. The hundreds of bridge deck overlays I referenced earlier were all designed, installed, and are performing to successfully resist the impact forces of multiple 80,000 lb., AASHTO HS20 18-wheel truck/trailer combinations, traveling at 70 mph, thousands of times a day, all year long, under all weather conditions. If the pedestrian traffic on your patio exceeds those parameters, then, yes, maybe an overlay would not be in your best interest.

6. The few failures (probably less than 8 or 10, total) of bridge deck overlays I have observed in the last 40 years were all a direct result of unsatisfactory workmanship on the part of the installer, and usually involved bonding failure of the overlays with the parent concrete as a result of improper surface preparation. Easily avoided if the proper precautions are taken, appropriate specifications/procedures are followed, and correct materials are used.
 
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Old 01-11-12, 11:52 AM
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my appologizes for my confusion about overlays. However, my point was intended to make it clear that any overlay you use has to be a true overlay (similar to what you just described) and not simply a thin troweled system that can be anywhere from 1/16" to 1/4" in thickness. The big box stores sell numerous products that they market as overlays that will not do the trick. These were the types of systems that I was refering to in terms of pour performance when it comes to freeze/thaw issues. I was afraid "dinosaur 1" might also asume an overlay system would be comparable to the thin troweled systems and if he went that route he would be in for disapointment. If his patio is far enough below the back door to allow for a true overlay it is a very good option. Of course this assumes that any settling that may have occured has stopped. If the base is still moving then you have to correct that first.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 02:17 AM
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Not sure why the guy peddling mudjacking thinks I'm "not serious," because I listed the facts regarding successful installation of concrete overlays. Not to be confused with thin patches, which are always prone to failure. Absolutely no difference between a 12' x 12' patio or a 200' long bridge deck--proper surface preparation and installation procedures can be done if one has the knowledge (and tools) to understand what's required to produce a successful and permanent product.

I'll try to make this simple. The reason bridge deck overlays typically cost thousands of $$$ is because they are much larger than patios (many are greater than 10,000 S.F., and I had 2 in my DOT district that were both more than 92,000 S.F.--still performing well after 20+ years and 18,000 vehicles per day). And the cost of bridge overlays always includes traffic control, which can account for up to half of the actual concrete work cost--and not usually a factor on a backyard patio.

Anyone who says it can't be done (because he worked for the Kansas DOT for 5 years?) is not basing his assumption on plain facts, or is possibly confused by the difference between true thin-bonded concrete overlays and small concrete patches.

And whatever happened to the rules against advertising here?
 
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Old 08-31-12, 04:39 PM
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Lest anyone think I've gone completely bonkers, talking to myself in the previous post about a long-dormant thread--the moderators chose to delete the original Post 16, a rant by a mudjacking guy who also was trying to advertise his business for free.
 
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