Issues with Rustic Gable Roof Framing Front Porch

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Old 08-08-13, 08:56 PM
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Issues with Rustic Gable Roof Framing Front Porch

Last weekend I attempted to start my gable roof. It turned into a disaster. A few weeks ago I poured two sono tubes 48 inches deep with an anchor bolt in them. This week I tighten the anchor bolt to the 4x4 support bracket and nailed the 4x4 bracket to the 4x4 when I had it nice and leveled. I cut into the exiting roof so I can run my 2x8 through it and attach it to my top-plate that my existing rafters and joist are on.

Issues I experienced that I need help withÖ
Balancing the 2x8 on top of the 4x4 was very hard to do. So I put two nails on top of the 4x4 to keep the 2x8 on it helped from it falling off. I was VERY surprised how unsturdy the 4x4 was. I used some 2x4 to help keep the 4x4s from falling over and ran my 2- 2x8 into the roof. Then another 2x8 in the front on each post to connect the 2x8 coming out (I believe rim joist?). The problem I had was nailing the 2x8 together with 16d 3 Ĺ nails and balance it on the 4x4.
Multiple times the 2x8 was falling off the other post when I was trying to hammer. This just didnít seem sturdy. When I was nailed the 2x8 kept pulling away from the other 2x8Ö. I was trying to toe nail the boards together. I ended up taking it all down. I want to do it right this weekend.
I believe screws will be much easier. Is it okay to use screws? What kind? When I connect the 3 joist together how to I attach where they sit on the 4x4 for maximum support? Advise on attaching joist to the top plate? I tried a bracket but I have very limited room since it is almost right against the existing rafters and joist. I want to make sure this is a strong structure. I have a framing nailer I didnít use for this project because those nails always seems to pull out easily so I was trying to stay away from them. This framing will not be closed I want to leave it open for the rustic look so I would prefer not to use the 4x4 brackets for the joist on the top.

Instead of working on a ladder I have someone letting me borrow a scaffold to try to make this easier.
 
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Old 08-08-13, 09:50 PM
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Not sure of the details you're trying to explain. Could you possibly post a few pix to help clarify?

In general, when working alone, trying to attach one end of a long member while the other end is loose (on top of a column), I've often done the following-- use a few bar clamps to first clamp the end of the horizontal member with the bar pointing downward, then a second bar clamp or large C-clamp to "grab" the first one's bar and pull it to the column. If you use a temporary "L" bracket (short 2 x 4s work just fine, attached with a few 16d commons), things will be much tighter than just trying to squeeze the somewhat flexible bar on a bar clamp.

Also, attaching multiple 2 x 8s together "up in the air" is the hard way of doing it. Put them together on the ground first, then hoist them up onto the columns as a single member. Glue and screw with No. 8, 3" deck screws should work just fine.
 
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Old 08-09-13, 05:30 AM
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I thought of doing it on the ground the 2x8 is 12 feet long coming out from the house. The porch is about 6ft wide and 5 ft length (door to sidewalk). I may try to put it together on the ground but may be way to heavy to get up on the post. How would you secure it to the post so the post are nice and sturdy? The framing nails I have for the gun seem to come out easy, someone on another forum said NOT to use screws they will snap? They said use the framing nailer gun...

How would you suggest attaching to the top plate where the existing roof rest.

There really isn't any picture I can show since I took it all down. Thank you for your input.
 
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Old 08-09-13, 10:13 AM
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They might get in the way of your working but I would attach a 2x4 from post to post in order ti keep the posts equidistant from top to bottom then attach 2x4s in an X pattern from post to post. That will keep them from moving side to side and plumb. Then attach 2x4 from near the top of the post to the ground (45 angle). You might have to beat a 2x4 stake into the ground or attach a short piece of 2x4 to the deck. This will keep the post from moving away from the house. As you go to install the beam, attach a short 2x4 to the side of and taller than the 4x4 post. Raise one end of the beam up the the house top plate then raise the other end up onto the post. I would be using the framing nailer any place I possibly could. Use a ring shank or screw shank nail. When assembling the beam (is this 2 or 3 2x8) don't shoot the nail straight into the wood, shoot them on a slight angle, one set to the right then the next set to the left alternating as you go. If the beam is setting on top of the 4x4, toe nail the beam to the top of the post then toe nail the beam into the top plate. If you can, I would still use a bracket or strap when attaching.
 
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Old 08-10-13, 05:58 PM
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Well I must say the great advise on here helped me out a lot today. Made good progress for today had to quit a little earlier than planned. Tomorrow in plan on get the ridge board up and rafters. I have a quick question... The ridge board I need about 16 feet long what angle do I cut the tail end that will go onto the roof? I am thinking of doing the raters at about 33 degrees will see. Do I cut the tails at the same angle on rafters? Birds mouth necessary on rafters ?
 
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Old 08-10-13, 08:11 PM
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Use an electronic level or sliding tee bevel to measure the roof's slope angle. That's the angle to cut the roof end of the ridge board. The rafter ends landing on the roof will have double bevel cuts on them--main one for the rafter slope angle and the existing roof slope angle for the perpendicular cut across the thin dimension of each rafter. And yes, you want birds mouth cuts on the rafters where they rest on your new top plates.

If you use 33 degree main rafter end cut angles, that works out to a slope of almost 8-in-12 (7.7929). It's your house, so my opinion doesn't count, but I think you'll find that such a steep slope on the new porch roof will look a bit odd and out of place. The main roof of the house appears to have only a 3-in-12 or 4-in-12 slope, from the photo. The respective slope angles for those two pitches are 14 degrees and 18.4 degrees, respectively.

Something to think about.
 

Last edited by BridgeMan45; 08-10-13 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 08-11-13, 06:26 AM
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Thanks for the reply again. You have been more then helpful. I am going to run out to lowes and grab a 2x8x16ft. Hopefully this will be long enough. I am still a little confused. If I do the rafters at your recommendation which I will be doing. Doesn't this change the height that the ridge board will be at? My guess is the main concern if finding the current roofs angle? Do you recommend cutting the shingle out? Someone told me to cut the shingles out but leave the roofing "paper/membrane" I will have to cut the existing roof back more than I did to expose the top plate so I can nail in some 2x4s to support the ridge beam. I don't have the tools you specified to find the current roofs angle. What if I go on the edge of the roof and use a speed square? I will go to lowes and see what the price is for the tools you indicated. Don't want to spend alot since this is a tool I will never use again.
 
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Old 08-11-13, 10:33 AM
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Here's how most folks do it--they choose the slope angle of the new gable roof, by deciding what would look best with the rest of the house, and the slope of the main roof. Then they install the ridge board at a height and with a length to fit the chosen slope. If you use a 6-in-12 slope for your (6' wide) porch roof, the lower rafter-ridge intersection point will be located 1.5' above the plane of the top plates--simply taking one-fourth of the total rise, or 6 divided by 4. Then add the width of the rafters you want to use multiplied by the secant of the slope angle--arctan 0.5 = 26.6*; sec 26.6* = 1.118. If you plan on using 2 x 6 rafters, the multiplication works out to 6.15" (5.5" x 1.118), so the top of the ridge will be 18" + 6.15" = 24.15" above the plane of the top plates.

You can pick up a plastic-handled sliding tee bevel for less than $6, or go fancier with a wooden one for around $12, at most big box stores. I wouldn't use a speed square to determine your roof's slope, because they are usually too tiny to be very accurate. If the thought of spending $6 hurts too much, use a carpenter's framing square instead, measuring the vertical drop with the long (24") leg horizontal on the roof; tape a torpedo level to it if you run out of hands. Your slope angle will be the arctan of one-half of this value, divided by 12. If your calculator doesn't have trig functions on it, get a cheapo TI-30XA for less than $10 at Wally World.

I always remove shingles when adding a new roof onto an existing roof. I also use nailer plates (usually 1 x 8s, wider for very flat slopes) where the rafter ends contact the existing roof sheathing, as I think most sheathing is too flimsy to adequately support much toe-nailing without splitting badly.
 
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Old 08-11-13, 12:37 PM
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To easily find the angle to cut the ridge beam to where it meets the house roof, set the ridge beam on top of the beam that runs from the house to the post and touch it to the roof shingles. Stand a second 2x on the roof shingles along side of the beam and scribe a line across the top of the second 2x and on to the side of the beam. That's the angle you will need to cut for the ridge beam assuming everything else is level.
 
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Old 08-11-13, 02:49 PM
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Thanks for the reply again. I stopped at 2 PM today. They are calling for rain all week long so I didn't want to cut into the roof and remove the shingles if I wasn't going to complete it today. the thing that sucks is I have work all week and something going on next two weekends. I will keep you posted as progress goes probably won't get back to it for another 2 weeks. Cut Ridge board today got a neat magnetic device like a Compass that finds the angle of the roof. Also Scribed Some of the rafterswhen I had the ridge board temporarily supported . Will start Assembly hopefully soon
 
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Old 08-11-13, 10:41 PM
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I suggest you acquire a Building permit for structural safety. Is that a wood deck where the old concrete porch was? Is there air clearance against rot? All p.t. wood, no wood composite decking like Trex... A single 2x8 on each post from the house to carry the rafters/snow load? Is the bottom of your beams (single 2x8) lower than the soffit trim board? Is the left post plumb, or are the brick mortar joints off? Will you be laying a 2x under the new ridge on the old roof? And sleepers in each new valley before any rafter- ridge or otherwise? Did you double the old house rafters under the new porch framing which are probably over-spanned as is? Just a few thoughts from the pictures...

Gary
 
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Old 08-14-13, 04:51 PM
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Gary, I have a builders permit. There is PT wood joist everything else is composite board. Yes there is plenty of air clearance.My grandfather that doesn't believe in any of the projects I do had an 80 year old guy come to inspect my work. He said everything looks good but he would double up on the 2x8 and 2x6 (in the front). I am going off of a design I found online and they didn't double up on the on them. Also my garage was added and isn't doubled which has a much longer span.
I am going to check the post again on the left I just said that the other day. The level showed is was good the other day. There will be 2x on the old roof for the rafters to nail into. I will be running some collar ties and reinforce the existing rafters when the project is near to be complete.
 
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Old 08-15-13, 03:04 PM
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Sounds like you have a handle on it. I've seen many intersecting gable over-framed roofs put up without strengthening the house's existing structure. Depends on the composite, some require 6-9" of clearance under the perimeter joists for air flow or mold will develop. Glad you doubled the "beams" for the live loads- snow, wind, etc. -- shows you can't believe everything you read- even here, lol. Keep up the good work! Post is probably aging eyesight by me...

Gary
 
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Old 08-16-13, 07:40 AM
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I didn't double the beams yet. I am still looking into this. I am sort of stuck because where the existing roof rafters and joist sit on the top plate of the house I can't fit another 2x8 to double the beam. The existing rafter and joist are in the way to fit another 2x8, cant even fit another inch. If I put it on the other side of the post the 2x8 it will be off the post. I'm screwed. Is the doubling really necessary for this small of a roof?
 
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Old 08-16-13, 01:56 PM
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This picture is before I tied in the joist. They are right against this on the top plate. I have no where else to run another 2x8. Is it completely necessary to double it for this size roof or will it be okay?
 
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Old 08-16-13, 05:13 PM
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The beam detail should be on the drawings submitted/approved for the permit. Very hard for anyone on the internet to give you direction on weather it will pass local inspection or not. Your ground snow loads in your state are variable; National Snow Load Information: State Snow Load Information Best to check with them for safety. Granted, 6x5' roof plus overhang is not much live load to figure. Picture appears bigger deck than that with a 3' storm door (code required) plus 3 bricks across to sides of deck = 8" x 3 =24" ea. side plus two (3-1/2") posts plus 4" x 2 (end bricks next to door setback= 7'8" + 7" = 8'3" is what is see. Best to ask locally.

Gary
PS. baffle the house insulation from the brick/wall cavity gap.
 
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