rot in bathroom exterior wall?


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Old 10-13-04, 10:34 AM
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rot in bathroom exterior wall?

started to redo 2nd floor bathroom in our home by pulling off tub/shower tiles along exterior wall. there's a window in the tub/shower area and i discovered that some of the window framing is rotted from years worth of exposure to moisture. the 2 studs along one side of the window kind of looks like norman bates' mother's face when she swings around in that chair in psycho. rot is dry to the touch, but shower hasn't been used in a couple of weeks. tile supporting material (i guess drywall, house is 30 years old and builder was not known for using high quality building materials). haven't gotten the tub out yet, so i don't know if it goes all the way down to floor, but it probably does.

i assume my next steps are to complete removal of tile and backing (drywall) and to get the tub out. i should then be able to visualize full extent of damage and plan a method of attack to repair damaged framing.

i believe that moisture seeped thru certain portions of the tub/shower wall that wasn't protected by tile. the tile ends about 12 inches short of the ceiling. the drywall on this section near the shower head, tho it appears to be in place, has disintegrated due to many years of water bombardment. it easily crumbles.

hope to get ongoing advice from those more knowledgeable than i during the new bathroom installation process. much thanks in advance.

bob gold
 
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Old 10-13-04, 10:58 AM
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Use concrete backerboard for the tub/shower walls and greenboard for any ceiling use you may have to repair.Greenboard is not waterproof but is OK for ceilings since it doe's not get soaked like the walls.Good luck and keep us posted.Use the reply button to add to this thread and it brings your post back to the top of the forum.
 
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Old 10-13-04, 01:38 PM
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i read elsewhere in this forum that removal of an old bath tub (once detached from the drain and wall) can be expedited by taking a sledge hammer to it and smashing it to bits. bits at least small enough so that the pieces can be carried out by one person. is this true?

the tub being removed is original to the house, which was built in 1968. i believe it's enameled cast iron, but am not sure.
 
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Old 10-13-04, 01:41 PM
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since i'll be tiling the ceiling in the tub area as well, shouldn't i use backer board on the ceiling in the tub area? or is the green board you mention good for tiling as well?
 
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Old 10-13-04, 01:50 PM
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If the tub is cast iron it will break with a sledge. PLEASE be careful as the pieces fly and they are sharp. Make your first attempt to break, on an edge. The tub may be enameled steel and then you ain't gonna break it. For the ceiling, use the backer board as the tile won't stick to the greenboard (at least not for as long as you would like it to). Good luck.
 
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Old 10-14-04, 06:21 AM
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thanks for the advice. i assume you're a pro at this kind of thing. this is my first redo of a bathroom. i'm pretty handy tho. got one of those time-life books and some other "do it yourself" books which are helpful, but it's great to have a more knowledgeable person than i in the background willing to lend advice and support. thanks!!

this weekend, i'll be completing demolition of the tub area walls and, hopefully, tub removal. then i'll be able see the full extent of the water damage. i hope i can manage with it by myself. i have a carpenter friend who i'll get to take a look and advise me on the best method for window frame and stud replacement. i guess the good news is that the tub is directly over an exterior soffet and i have an access panel that can be dropped underneath the tub and stud plate (not sure of the correct carpentry term to name the 2" x 4" piece that holds up the exterior 2nd floor wall. maybe "header?"

i pray i can take care of the window frame and stud replacement prior to the setting in of cold weather. i'm here in new york and i have about a month to get it all sealed up for winter. my fear is that i'll have to remove the exterior shake shingles and other materials exterior to the house.

again, thanks for the assistance.

bob
 
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Old 10-14-04, 07:41 AM
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Bobgold,
I have contacted Doug Aleshire to assist in this post. He has much more knowledge in what type of wallboard to use in different situations. My forte is Plumbing and I would rather admit a mistaken answer and have it corrected than to give you just plain bad advice.
 

Last edited by Doug Aleshire; 10-14-04 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 10-14-04, 08:30 AM
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majakdragon,

Thanks for asking for my input. Your suggestion to bobgold is good but there are some points that bobgold should be made aware of.

This is direct from USG,

SHEETROCK brand Gypsum Panels, Water-Resistant, are a proven water-resistant base for the adhesive application of ceramic and plastic tile and plastic-faced wall panels for areas not subjected to constant moisture and humidity. The panel is easily recognized by its distinctive green face.

***Limitations: Not recommended for ceilings where framing is greater than 12 inches on center, or in remodeling unless applied directly to studs. Panels should not be installed over a vapor retarder or on a wall acting as a vapor retarder unless it will be tiled or finished with an impervious paint.***

Panels are not intended for use in areas subject to constant moisture such as tub and shower enclosures, gang showers and commercial food processing;

DUROCK Cement Boards are recommended for these uses.

M/R is not recommended for use on any exterior wall. This is strictly an interior wall product.

I know that we all have seen it used on exterior walls but this is wrong and the price the owner will pay for the application will be costly. Life span is less than 5 years and I have seen it destroyed in 1 year. The issue is moisture that will be stopped at a vapor barrier behind the M/R will destroy it's integrity. Once moisture is behind it, most adhesives for ceramic tile, as an example, will start to seperate from the substrate and fall. This process not only lets the M/R get wet but the water infiltration, over time, will get to the wood and then we have another issue to deal with.

Hope this helps!
 
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Old 10-14-04, 09:49 AM
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so if i understand correctly, your recommendation for tub/shower walls and ceiling to be tiled is to use "durock cement board." please confirm.

should a mosture barrier of some kind be used between the cement board and studs? as best i can recall, one book i read suggested tar paper being put up prior to installing the cement board.

also, i would think that i should use galvanized screws to affix the cement board, rather than regular dry wall screws.

bob
 
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Old 10-14-04, 11:27 AM
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bobgold,

Placement of a vapor barrier behind the cement board is not recommended as the fasteners for your durock will create holes and if any possible cracks within your tile or grout appear, you know where the water will go. I have seen tar paper used but for what we are doing we do not need it. However 6 mil poly is good and more commonly used.

So how does one prevent problems? In areas to be tiled, treat all fastener heads with SHEETROCK® Setting-Type Durabond 45 or 90) or Lightweight Setting-Type (Easy Sand 45 or 90) Joint Compound. Use the same joint compound with SHEETROCK® Joint Tape to finish joint. For areas not to be tiled, embed tape with SHEETROCK® Setting-Type (Durabond 45 or 90) or Lightweight Setting-Type (Easy Sand 45 or 90) Joint Compound in the conventional manner.

W/R Panels for use in commercial and residential interior areas not subject to excessive or continuous moisture

– An economical moisture-resistant base for adhesive application of tile and plastic-faced wall panels
– Water-resistant face paper, core, and back paper

Description:

Although SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels—Water-Resistant, provide a moisture resistant base for adhesive application of ceramic and plastic tile and plastic-faced wall panels, they are not designed for use in high-moisture areas such as tub and shower surrounds. When installed and maintained correctly they help to minimize problems in bathrooms, powder rooms, kitchens, and utility rooms related to incidental moisture exposure.
Panels are manufactured using a 100% recycled green multi-layered face paper treated to resist moisture; a water resistant gypsum core, and a 100% recycled multi-layered back paper treated to resist moisture. The panels have
shallow tapered edges and are available in three types: 1/2 panels are available with a regular core for use in non- fire rated applications, and with a FIRECODE® C Core for use in fire-rated assemblies. 5/8 panels are available with a FIRECODE® or FIRECODE® C Core for use in fire-rated assemblies.
Limitations General

1. Do not use in tub or shower surrounds, or other areas subject to constant or excessive moisture. DUROCK® Brand Cement Board or AQUA-TOUGH™ Brand Interior Panels are recommended for these applications (see USG system folder SA932).
2. Do not expose to sustained temperatures exceeding 125 °F (52 °C).
3. Avoid excessive or continuous exposure to moisture during delivery, storage, handling and installation. Eliminate sources of moisture immediately.
4. Use adhesive (mastic) materials to apply tile. Do not use mortar-type materials.
5. When applied on ceiling, framing must be 12 o.c. maximum for 1/2 thick panels and 16 o.c. maximum for 5/8 thick panels.
6. When used as a base for tile, fasten panels through to framing (wood or steel).
7. Single-layer application on resilient channels is not recommended where tile is to be applied.
8. Panels to receive tile or other surfacing acting as a vapor retarder should not be installed over a vapor retarder.
9. On wall applications, maintain a gap of 1/4 to 1/2 inch between the bottom edges or ends of the panels and the floors, or any other horizontal surface where water could accumulate.

Do not use drywall screws or drywall nails and do not use 5/16" DUROCK Brand Underlayment for wall or ceiling applications.

Approved fasteners include: 1. DUROCK Brand Screws, USG Sheathing, Type WF for woodframe or Type SF for steel-frame construction, or 2. Minimum (1-1/2") 11 gauge, hot-dipped galvanized roofing nails with nominal 7/16" dameter head for wood framing.

I called USG to clarify issues of W/R board and use of vapor barriers. Important note - Do not use WR on exterior walls per USG. Please review this link for the information I received.

http://dougaphs.smugmug.com/gallery/251530

What products can be used in high moisture areas such as tub/shower surrounds, gang showers, or other areas?

DUROCK® Brand Cement Board is the best product for these areas. It is extremely moisture durable and offers mold resistance. The Tile Council of America does not recommend the use of paper faced gypsum substrates in these areas. USG supports this recommendation therefore we do not recommend that SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, Water-Resistant or SHEETROCK® Brand HUMITEK™ Gypsum Panels be used in these areas.

Where should SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, Water-Resistant be used?

SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, WR are for interior areas where incidental moisture is a concern, but where added mold resistance is not a requirement.

(this is allot of typing!)

Does this help?
 
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Old 10-14-04, 12:50 PM
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wow!!! most complete and helpful. i can see i came to the right place for expert advice. thanks for exercising your fingers so nimbly. i'll certainly be coming back to this forum once i get to this stage.

first though, i have rotted window framing and studs alongside a window frame to extract and replace. this window is right in the middle of the tub area. poor practical design by the architect, tho from the outside this window provides symmetry in design. the rot is along one side of the window, and i suspect it goes all the way down the lenght of the stud (king stud?) to the plate (?). bathroom is on second floor. i'm not sure about the term a carpenter would use to name the the horizontal floor level 2"x 4" that studs are nailed to. obviously, it's an external wall.

i believe i'll have to remove this replacement window (4 yrs. young) and build a new frame from scratch. i may have to have a local carpenter friend eyeball the situation and tell me how to best proceed.

i suppose questions about replacing rotting framing belong in another forum on this doityourself website.

bob
 
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Old 10-14-04, 01:36 PM
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bobgold,

Glad to help and keep coming back, everyone here helps each other.

I'm not found of those windows within the tub area either. Look at this for an alternative once you have the wall repaired.

http://dougaphs.smugmug.com/gallery/229281

Would this work as an alternative since you are considering tile?
 
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Old 10-14-04, 04:34 PM
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interestingly, your website picture of the blue tub area with shower head looks very similar to the look of the tub area in our bathroom, except, of course, we have the vinyl replacemnt window, not glass blocks (or are they actually plastic?). our window is in exactly the same position relative to the corner and proximity to the shower head as yours.

i'll show the glass block look to my wife, but i think that since our house faces the road (about 50 feet away) we'll be inclined to keep the replacement window.

do those blocks provide any other benefit, besides privacy and light without the need for a plastic curtain?

bob
 
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Old 10-14-04, 05:06 PM
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bobgold,

The pictures that I displayed are of both glass and acrylic block. The tub is acrylic. The stairwell and shower is glass.

However, for ultimate privacy, you'll want to use our Frosted Wave blocks based on our popular Wave pattern - one side of the block is "frosted" to make it nearly opaque. Since there is a variety of block textures and finishes, you get privacy, security, lots of light as you can tell and better insulating value than windows. Vinyl may have U-value of 30 on high end and Hy-Lite, for example, has a U-value of 41 - 51. It's a big difference.

With units placed within a tub or shower area, I always place the glass block so it is flush with the ceramic tile. This makes for easy cleaning and no worry about future problems. Of course, I am using cement board as my substrate - not drywall. If the issue of having the ability for "fresh air", you can get these with a operable vent - again the vent is obscure for privacy. 50ft away from the road I would opt for glass block, of either type as it also is a sound barrier.

Although acrylic blocks can be broken with a hammer or crowbar, acrylic is harder to break than a glass window. Plus, because the window is made of individual blocks, each block would need to be broken or removed in order for someone to enter through the window. It would be much quicker and easier for a burglar to break through a regular glass window or door.

Here are some links to look at,

http://www.hy-lite.com/

http://www.pittsburghcorning.com/homeowners/faq1.asp

Hope this helps!
 
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Old 10-15-04, 05:45 AM
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doug--

in an earlier post, you indicated that 6 mil poly could be used to provide a moisture barrier for walls that will be tiled. unless you tell me different, i'm assuming that this poly is stapled to the studs on top of the insulation (for an exterior wall and then the durock is screwed into place using the materials recommended in your prior post.

does the same recommendations apply for the ceiling area above the tub that will also be tiled?

bob
 
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Old 10-15-04, 06:19 AM
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bobgold,

Yes on first but questionable on second,

Regarding the ceiling, I am assuming that you are tiling it so if you are going over an existing substrate, no vapor barrier is needed. Remember that the Durock will be taped. Did you read the Vapor Barrier letter by USG?

If you already have drywall above, then you install poly, then the Durock, you will be creating a envelope, sealing your existing substrate between the ceiling joist and the Durock will "trap" moisture between the poly breaking down the existing substrate. This is not what you want to do.

Good Luck!
 
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Old 10-15-04, 09:46 AM
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i'm not sure if i'm following you on this one, doug. perhaps, it's lack of understanding of the term "substrate." what does that mean?

right now, i have sheet rock above the tub area that i'll be pulling down in preparation for a tiled ceiling above the tub. per your prior recommendation, i'll be using durock above the the tub screwed directly into the ceiliing joists. i'll seal the screws using the materials suggested in your prior recommendation. now, my question is whether or not to use the poly between the durock and joists?

bob
 
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Old 10-15-04, 03:37 PM
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bobgold,

Sorry, substrate is what things are attached to or what is under something.

OK, if you are pulling down the existing overhead drywall, you have the option to not use any vapor barrier as the durock will be one, as described in the articles mentioned. However, to ensure that moisture does not get to your insulation, I would play it safe and install a vapor barrier. Then install the Durock and tape as directed.

Hope this helps!
 
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Old 10-16-04, 01:11 PM
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thanks again doug.

for the time being, i have some grunt work in front of me before preparing walls/ceiling for tile. but now i have a much better idea about what i need to shop for. i may come back here after i'm ready for putting the walls back together.

again, thanks much.

bob
 
 

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