Travertine, tile spacing necessary?

I have some 12x12 Travertine tile I want to use in my kitchen and bath. I was wondering if I could just lay them without any space in between them. If it's ok, would I still need to grout the tile?

If I have to put spaces in between, would I be able to go with a 1/16 ok?

 

Hi Eva

I've seen quite a few questions here and other places regarding butting travertine tile without any grout lines. I suppose its possible to do but I dont think its a good idea. Even if the tile are perfectly square and perfectly consitent in size, there will still be some space between the tiles even if you cant see it. All kinds of gook will eventually get into these spaces and it will become a breading ground for mold and whatever else. 1/16" would be a better idea, but even that will only be good if you have good quality travertine that is perfectly square and consistent in size. Ive seen some really good stuff and some really crappy stuff.

To do what you propose will require a perfectly flat floor and some very good setting skills to get a lippage free floor. The smaller the grout joints the more difficult it is to get the tile perfectly flat to one another. You really need to check the tile out for consistency and make sure your floor is perfectly flat.

What will you be setting the travertine over, a concrete slab or a framed floor? If its a framed floor there are some things you will need to be aware of so let us know in advance.

 

I'll go with the 1/16th then. From what I've read on here I need to go with unsanded grout, right? Last time I checked at Home Depot, all the grout they had for sale said 1/8 or larger, is there something else I should be looking for?

In the kitchen I'm going to be laying it over 1/4 hardibacker, over hardwood. I'm going to get put down self leveling underlayment, then thinset the hardibacker to the hardwood.

In the bathroom it's a concrete slab, so I'm going to use the self leveling underlayment again, then lay down tile over that.

I'm also putting in 6" tumbled travertine for my kitchen backsplash. I guess I'll go with 1/16th there too, thanks.

 

It's time to back up and rethink your plans. Glad you found this place because it seems like you got some really bad big box store type of advice. Just to start, the supporting structure for stone needs to be 2x as strong as that for ceramic, both along the joist span and across the subfloor between the joists. Post back with your joist size, spacing and unsupported span. Like it or not, you will also NEED to add another layer of plywood to your existing subfloor. At least 1/2", quite possibly thicker.

CBU does not get installed over hardwood. Hardwood flooring needs to be removed. Too much movement and instability to leave it under a tiled installation.

SLC always gets installed over the backer, always

There is a post on this page where a "Super Moderator" instructed to use SLC before the CBU. Titles like that unfortunately give credibility to pathetically bad advice

For the bathroom (slab) and the kitchen, when pouring SLC, you need to create perimeter dams as you must maintain the available perimeter expansion gap. You also will need the primer for the SLC. Any cracks in the slab in your bathroom?

You will need to open those lines quite a bit more with tumbled stone. They will not be as consistently sized or square as the ones for the floor. You need the width in the grout lines to hide that variation so your coursing looks remains straight in appearance. You might get away with 1/8" but you probably will need to jump to 3/16". I suggest you take a box of the 6x6's, lay them along a drywall square, butted together. Align a straight edge along the top and see you size variation. Double that variation as your grout line. Sanded grout, let it fill the pits in the tile so gunk doesn't fill them later on. The grout will slightly shrink as it cures so you will still have the uneven surface without the maintenance issues later. My 2 favorite color grouts with tumbled travertine are Tec's Ivory and Laticrete's Sauterine.

 

HD and all big box stores have unsanded grout. It comes in a box instead of a bag. Look above the sanded grout and it will be there, but not in all the color selections as the sanded.

 

I'll find out the joist span and size when I demo the bathroom. Could I lay plywood over the hardwood instead of ripping out the hardwood?

There are cracks in the concrete in the bathroom.

I'm really confused now about what to put down first, the hardibacker or the self-leveling underlayment. I've read several post saying self-leveling underlayment, then hardibacker on top of that.

 

You mean kitchen? Anyway, for the joist span, go into your basement or crawl space and measure the length of the joist from supporting wall/beam to supporting wall/beam. The measure of span is the total span from below, even if the kitchen does not occupy the full span. Also check the joist size, 2x? and how far apart are they spaced?

No, hardwood needs to go. Tile and stone won't survive over that kind of movement. Like I said before, you will need to add plywood. That 3/4" hardwood gives you room to add the plywood you need without building up your floor so much that you trap your appliances or have a big step up to the kitchen.

Providing there is no height difference between one side and the other along the cracks, you can tile using an anti-fracture/crack suppression membrane first. That will prevent the cracks from telegraphing through your installation. If you have height variation along the crack, consider a nice vinyl (now isn't that an oxymoron?)

Yeah, I've corrected several of them as well. Tile needs a rigid and stable substrate. Pour slc first over the ply and when you go to screw through it, you tear it up creating instability under your cbu. Also, when poured over ply for tile, there is a minimum thickness of pour that also needs to be reinforced with 2.5 lath. Over cbu taped and thinsetted at the seams, once primed with the slc primer, slc can be feather edged, just as one would when pouring over a slab.

Keep this in mind, tile doesn't care about level, it only cares about flat. You could trowel some thinset into a low spot (no more than abuut a 1/4" build up at a time) to achieve flat. When you start involving slc's, a floor that is slightly not flat, vs. a floor that is out of level, you could end up using a ton of slc as it will want to run to the low end of the floor.

 

You mean kitchen? Anyway, for the joist span, go into your basement or crawl space and measure the length of the joist from supporting wall/beam to supporting wall/beam. The measure of span is the total span from below, even if the kitchen does not occupy the full span. Also check the joist size, 2x? and how far apart are they spaced?
No, hardwood needs to go. Tile and stone won't survive over that kind of movement. Like I said before, you will need to add plywood. That 3/4" hardwood gives you room to add the plywood you need without building up your floor so much that you trap your appliances or have a big step up to the kitchen.
Providing there is no height difference between one side and the other along the cracks, you can tile using an anti-fracture/crack suppression membrane first. That will prevent the cracks from telegraphing through your installation. If you have height variation along the crack, consider a nice vinyl (now isn't that an oxymoron?)
Yeah, I've corrected several of them as well. Tile needs a rigid and stable substrate. Pour slc first over the ply and when you go to screw through it, you tear it up creating instability under your cbu. Also, when poured over ply for tile, there is a minimum thickness of pour that also needs to be reinforced with 2.5 lath. Over cbu taped and thinsetted at the seams, once primed with the slc primer, slc can be feather edged, just as one would when pouring over a slab.

Keep this in mind, tile doesn't care about level, it only cares about flat. You could trowel some thinset into a low spot (no more than abuut a 1/4" build up at a time) to achieve flat. When you start involving slc's, a floor that is slightly not flat, vs. a floor that is out of level, you could end up using a ton of slc as it will want to run to the low end of the floor.

 

CARP!!!

I was thinking this was a regular house, not a condo.

Unless you are on the first floor, you might have light weight gypsum concrete (brand name Gypcrete)

This might be under your hardwood as well. It's often used as a sound isolator in condos. That will change most of everything.

Grab your utility knife and go at the bathroom floor. If you can cut into it with a utility knife, we need to back up and redo all our planning.

No if-then-else until you post back. From your description of the bathroom, it sounds like you might have gypcrete or equivalent. There are successful methods for dealing with it, but they will be different than what we've been trying to help you plan.

As long as everything on each floor mirrors what os below, then yes, you can reference the joists in the ceiling of your kitchen for the requested joist info.

 

Well the concrete in the bathroom is pretty solid. My building is actually pretty old, the walls seem to be plaster. I actually had to put up new drywall in the bathroom a few years back because of some water damage from above. Demo of the bathroom was hell, the wall tiles were like bricks and under that there was a lot of plaster, metal, etc.

I don't know what's under the kitchen floor though, how do I go about ripping it up? Was I correct in thinking that SLU isn't necessary since you said tile needs flat not level? Just the required thickness of plywood, and hardibacker on top?

 

Hey, I removed one of my hardwood planks in the kitchen. Here's what I found:

The hardwood planks lay on top of 2x2 wood slats that run perpendicular to the hardwood. They are spaced 16" apart, and they are on top of 3/4" plywood. Under the plywood are the joists which are positioned in the same place as the slats, 16" apart. They are 2x9, though I don't know the span.

I believe they did this so warm air can circulate under the floors, as they do feel heated during the winter.

I wasn't expecting this, so I'm wondering where I go from here. I was thinking I rip up the hardwood, then remove the slates for the portion I want to tile. On top of the 3/4" plywood I would put in 2 more layers of 3/4" plywood, then hardibacker, then the tile.

That would give me 3 layers of 3/4" plywood as a subfloor, which should give me enough strength? I know I've read about 2 layers of plywood for a subfloor, but I need to build up the height do to the extra space from the slats.

Here are some pictures. You see the slat, and under it is the plywood. It appears that's where the spacing between the plywood is. The hardwood floor looks really bad due to the adhesive that was on from the previous vinyl flooring.

 

FYI, I didn't up and disappear. I did have the sewer line in my house break though. It's true that S*** rolls down hill and the sewer line runs along one basement wall 4' off the slab. It's time to go invite yourself into your neighbor's condo below. Just bring some fresh baked goodies and explain you would like to measure the joist span from wall to wall where your kitchen sits above.

54 sf is small and you might be lucky enough that the span is quite short then from wall to wall.

 

 

Hey, I was wondering where you went. I figured you had your own S#IT to deal with, and I was right

I've actually decided to just repair and resand the hardwood floor. It just feels wrong to rip up the hardwood, and the project is too much for me. I surrender! I'll concentrate on the travertine for the bathroom.

Fill in the cracks in the concrete, use ditra, and tile over that right? I'll use the travertine I was going to put in the kitchen for the bathroom walls instead.

Thanks for all your help, maybe someone else can benefit from this thread=)