Hey there,

In the middle of a remodel and was wondering if anyone can give me advice on the proper way to tile the base of this new tub. There is an edge (see pic) that has a built in slope. I'm guessing to just tile down and leave enough space at the base to grout? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Also, if it matters or helps, the tub is a kohler k840 and the tub fits snug between the 3 surrounding walls.
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Here is a link to Kohlers installation instructions for that tub. There are details in the instructions on how Kohler recommends you handle the tub/wall joint.

http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatal.../1084219_2.pdf

Im not particularly fond of these types of tubs for an installation such as you have. This tub has no flange, and so a bead of caulk is the only defense for water at the critical tub and cement board/tile joint. You have to make sure that that caulked joint is always in tact and in perfect condition, or it will be a source for leaking. In the future if it looks suspect, remove the caulk, and recaulk it.

Use caulk at the joint where the cement board meets the tub, and then after you tile, where the tile meets the tub. Do not use grout, as it will crack, and be a source for leaks. Dont forget to put a vapor barrier over the studs, behind the cement board.

 

Thanks for the input. Also since you brought it up about the vapor barrier. Do u like redguard? Or actual sheeting behind the cement board?
Thanks!

 

Waterproofing over the cement board is always a better solution than vapor barrier behind the cement board.

 

Ok. Waterproof,then seal the seams right? Any particular cement board you like better?
Thanks!

 

Not sure what you mean by seal the seams.

Put up the cement board. Mud and tape the seams with thinset. Apply the redgard to proper thickness (needs several coats), then tile and grout. Caulk the corners where the walls meet, and the joint where the walls meet the tub. No grout in the corners, or at the tub/wall joints. Seal the grout and your done.

Wonderboard, durock, hardi are all good. They are the only ones Ive used.

 

Thanks for all your help, good info..

One last thing I was wondering is.. There is enough of a gap to set the cement board down between the tub and the studs it is resting on. Should I allow the cement board to go all the way down or leave up a bit with a gap..?

 

You have a shower with this, too, right? Do you plan on using a halo curtain? You won't be able to use a shower door or conventional shower curtain since all the water from the shower will drain down on the flat tile surface.

 

Look at the installation instructions. The cement board has to come down over the tub. What you propose will never work.

 

Heresjohnny,

Here is a better pic of what I am dealing with. If this was you what would you do to fill the space? It seems like I need to double up on the hardibacker to get the right spacing. Is this a common problem? And ideas? The space is even on both ends.

Thanks for all your input!
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You can add 1/2" plywood strips (or thicker if needed) to the studs so that the hardibacker will extend over the tub. Leave a 1/8" gap between the top of the tub and the hardi. Caulk the joint where the hardi meets the tub. Water proof the hardi with redgard.

Normally, tubs installed in an alcove like this have a flange that would contain any water that breaches the caulk joint. Your tub does not, so you have to make sure that the waterproofing behind the tile is 100% done correctly.

The type of tub you have selected is normally installed on a deck as a soaking tub. Typically there would be a separate shower stall.

 

got it thanks. Should I shim out the whole wall that way from top to bottom and side to side, to keep things even?

 

Greg

Do the plywood strips on the entire tub surround walls so that the cement board hangs over the tub. If the cement board will butt to drywall, then do the same to those areas as well.

 

Thanks for all your help. I will let u know how it turns out

 

don't you want to use a shower panel instead.
i had the same problem, and the panel resolved it just fine
(look at Amazon, try "bathtech")
best

 

I just do not ever see this style tub working out. As several posted stated to you it's a soaking tub which is made to be a drop in. It will leak at some point and take out the subflooring or more.
It would be far chaeper to go buy the right tub and only have to do this job once.

 

Got the walls up and shimmed out with 1/2 " plywood strips. Everything seems to be working out just fine. Heresjohnny I have one last ? for you...

Inside the shower area I have 5/8 sheetrock for the ceiling. Do I need to thinset those joints(where the sheetrock from the ceiling meets the hardi) like I will with the rest of the hardi joints?

Thanks for all the help. And I know a few of you mentioned this was not a good idea and looking back on it I probably would have opted for a different tub but the manf. instructions do in fact offer this as an option to install exactly this way. Its just a little more difficult to get it perfectly sealed.

Thanks

 

Greg

Will the wall tile be going all the way to the ceiling? Will the ceiling be getting tiled?

 

yes the tile is going all the way to ceiling. The ceiling will not be getting tiled.

 

Caulk the joint where the cement board walls meet the drywall ceiling. Tile to the ceiling, then caulk the joint where the tile meets the ceiling.

 

Wow, that makes sense. Im glad you replied cause I never would have thought of that. Thanks!
Also. Whats your preferred method for tape/bedding a joint where drywall meets hardibacker. The hardi will be tiled to the very edge of where it meets up with the drywall.

Thanks for your help

 

Greg

A general rule is that if the joint where drywall and cement board meet will be tiled, use thinset to mud the joint, and if the joint will be painted, use drywall joint compound to mud the joint. If you will be ending the tile right at the joint, then I do something different. It's been my experience that thinset (for the tile) over drywall compound (premixed in a bucket) doesnt work, as it tends to reimulsify the joint compound. Instead I use a dry powder form joint compound that you mix yourself like USG Durabond which seems to not have that problem.

 

So one of the options listed above is to just thinset the joint and just overlap the tile instead of meeting it right at the joint. So in otherwords half of that row of tile will be on hardi and the other half is on drywall. That is what I will most likely do since I still have that option.

Thanks for the help.

Heres a good one for you guys. I was at Lowe's in the tape & bedding area an employee came to me and asked if they could help me and I asked if there was another section/area that sold tape because I was looking for the mesh alk tape and it wasn't in that area. He asked what I was using it for and I explained. He then told me that I could use duct tape. I almost fell over .

 

Here is an updated pic of my progress so far, Thanks for all the help!
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It looks great, nice work.

 

Thanks... I have a question.

I got ahead of myself and ran a bead of silicone where the tub and tile meet up. I have not grouted yet, does anyone see anything wrong with doing it in this order? Im thinking I should be ok after I grout and just run a final bead to make everything look smooth.

 

Gregnese:

Sorry, man, but you're gonna have to take that silicone caulk out.

That's because the WET grout isn't gonna stick to that silicone caulk. You're gonna have a paper thin gap between the grout and the silicone where water from the shower spray is gonna leak through the tiling into the wall.

Also, in future you're likely to have to remove and replace that caulk. The problem is that new silicone caulk won't stick to old silicone caulk, and you're going to have old silicone caulk between the tiles. And, the preceding assumes that any new silicone caulk will as wide or wider than the bead of silicone you have now. You won't be able to go to a narrower bead of caulk because then you'll have gaps at the bottoms of your vertical grout lines.

Take the time now to fix this problem. You need to remove that silicone caulk completely, use masking tape to mask off the gap between the tub and tile, and then grout.

Go to the Cleaning & Stain Removal forum in the Household Cleaning and Kitchen Appliance Service and Repairs section of this web site and read my post in the thread entitled "Help Removing Silicone Caulk". It's currently the 7th thread down below the stickies.

Also, those look like porous surface tiles to me on your wall. You're going to have to either apply a sealer to those tiles before grouting or clean the tiling with acid after grouting. If they are porous, then the grout will get into the pores on the surface of the tiles and discolour them to whatever colour grout you use. I've never tiled with anything other than glazed wall tiles, so that's uncharted territory for me, but I do know that if your tiles are porous then the grout will get into those pores and change the colour of your tiles. So, before you grout, find out how best to prevent the grout from discolouring your tiles.

PS:
Think again. That final bead of silicone caulk won't stick to what you have now. Once you start using that tub or shower, the final bead will start coming loose. It'll already be "not sticking" even before you start using the tub/shower. Nothing sticks to silicone caulk, not even silicone caulk.

Also, what kind of silicone caulk did you use? If you can't restart the tube you have and end up having to buy another tube of silicone, check out all your local home centers to see if you can find Dow Corning 786. If you can't get that, then see if you can get GE 1700 instead. Both cost a few dollars more than your standard tub & tile silicone, but they have better adhesive qualities and more mildewcide in them. See if you can candy cane the silicone you have. That is, just squeeze a bit out the nozzle so that it starts to bend over. Then, every day or two, pull out that cured plug of silicone, and candy cane it again. You should be able to keep your silicone caulk usable until you need to use it again by candy caning it like that each day.

 

I was afraid you would say that..But in the long run it would be better I suppose. I don't think I will have much of a problem getting it out since it is such a small bead but I am concerned for the bead behind that one that is between the hardi board and the tub. I don't want to disturb that one at all so I will have to be careful with chemicals.

I used GE Silicone II 5 yr. Is that stuff ok?

As for the grout on the surface tile. I have a bone color grout and want to fill the holes on the surface tile and then seal. I saw a demo wall at the tile supply where I bought the tile with the exact setup that I am doing and it looked ok. I just need to make sure I seal really good.

Thanks for the help. I will post a final pick when everything is done.

 

Gregnese:

You don't have to worry about any chemicals harming the bead of silicone between your tub and the Hardibacker. The chemical will make the silicone swell up and get soft, but if it's not removed while it's in that soft swollen state, it'll simply shrink and stiffen back up to it's original condition.

GE makes good silicones, and Silicone II is GE's consumer product meant for retail stores, similar to DAP's "Titanium" Silicone II. Both are good quality silicones to use around a tub.

Dow Corning's 786 and GE's 1700 are "acetoxy" silicones. They have stronger adhesive properties but cure slower. Acetoxy silicones cure by reacting with water vapour in the air and producing acetic acid, which is released from the silicone. These are "moisture cure" silicones because they cure by reacting with the humidity in the air. When you use these silicones, you'll smell an "ammonia-like" smell, which is the acetic acid in the air.

Next time you're in the home center, look for either DAP Titanium Silicone II or Dow Corning 786. Pay attention to the closure system on the tube because it's the best that I've come across so far. But, it can be made better by putting a tiny screw style hose clamp on the tube so that you can tighten he cap more.

This is what the Dow Corning closure system looks like:



And, in cross section, it looks like this:



The nozzle (12) screws into the tube (14). Both have tapered threads similar to the NPT threads used on threaded plumbing connections.

The cap (13) snaps onto and off of the nozzle (12). That cap has tapered threads (26) on it's exterior matching those of the tube and nozzle. (The drawing is wrong in that respect. It shows the threads on the cap to be tapered (like a pipe thread), but the threads on the nozzle and tube to be straight (like a bolt's threads). In actuality, all the threads are tapered like pipe threads.)

When you're finished using the silicone caulk, simply remove the nozzle from the tube and clean the uncured silicone out of it. (The cured silicone will not stick to the plastic the nozzle is made of.) Screw the cap into the tube. The problem with this system is that the tube is prone to split because of the continuous expansive force applied by the cap.

To get the system to work properly, go out and find the smallest screw type hose clamp you can, and install it snugly on the threaded part of the tube. Now when the cap is screwed into the tube, the steel hose clamp supports the tube and prevents it from splitting.

With the hose clamp on, thread the cap into the tube finger tight and then turn it an additional 1/8 of a turn or so with a pair of pliers. If you do that, you can seal and reseal the same tube of silicone caulk for years, or until you use up the entire tube, and I have done that. This Dow Corning closure system is an excellent system provided you use a small hose clamp (or anything similar in nature) to prevent the tube from splitting.