Weird bathroom remodel in old house

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-29-13, 12:46 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Weird bathroom remodel in old house

Hello all, I've posted before, but changed my name recently. BTW, this forum is great and help I've gotten from everyone is top notch.

So here's a challenge, should you choose to accept it:

I wanted to do a 'simple' shower remodel. I thought I could just demo the shower, put in a new pan, liner, backer and tile and be done... I know I'm naive but that's part of the fun of getting into things.

So I thought things were easy enough at first (despite 2 layers of floated walls) but as I've gotten deeper into it, I'm beginning to think I'm the victim of a previous DIY disaster.

So some details... In the demo, I found that the previous installation had some serious issues. The old shower had a lead liner and two layers to the pan, but the liner was below the both concrete layers and did not go up the sides of wall at all. Old liner photo. Consequently, the floor below at one of the edges was rotted through in several places. What's worse is that the frame in those areas rotted out too. Rotten frame 1, rotten frame 2. And to top it off, the tiles on the rest of the floor (that I was hoping would not require demo) have started to pop off revealing a crack. Oh, and the icing on the cake, the rest of the floor was poured (separate from the shower mind you) on a subfloor that runs between the joists, as in the boards only run between the joists, supported by a runner that runs the length of the joist. I don't know if that makes sense, here's a picture of it from below, Shower subfloor is on the left and higher than the rest of the subfloor on the right. From what I can tell, the tops of those joists appear to be rotted also.

My appeals for advice... Can I save the rest of the floor or should I just scrap and replace the whole thing? I would love to avoid the work, but it almost seems silly to try to save a poorly designed and partially damaged piece of floor just to be lazy. I imagine it'd be so much easier to take out the whole floor and do i up right.

What do I do with the old shower drain? From below, it looks like it should screw off if I can twist it good once the floor boards are up. Alternately, cut it off and fernco on a replacement. Even if I screw it off, can I do a steel to PVC? or will i just end up putting a coupling in either way.

How do I make sure the new drain is at the appropriate level when I put in the subfloor. Same question with the toilet drain if I tear out the rest of the bathroom floor.

One wall of the shower is essentially the exterior side of a previous exterior wall. The previous guy floated the shower wall directly on it and also chiseled out a path for the pipes and fittings. The old knob leaked severely so I'd like to replace it, but instead of copper, I was thinking of swapping in some new flexible pipes. Any thoughts on what would be best?

Since the old frame is rotten in places and because I don't want to put a wall directly on the former exterior wall, I guess I'm going to have to do some new framing. I was going to reframe at least the doorway and one wall. How wide should the door be?

Anybody have experience with the the Mark E Industries Quick pitch or Kirb perfect kits? They look ideal for a novice DIYer.

Okay, enough from me for now. I'll take whatever help and advice I can get... although I'd rather not hear that I need to the whole job out! Let me know if you there's any more pictures you'd like to see\

Thanks in advance!
 

Last edited by DIY science guy; 04-29-13 at 02:42 PM.
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-29-13, 03:33 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Welcome to an average day in my life as a contractor. Nothing you have stated surprises me or causes me any hesitation.

First off, consider it a disaster and dispense with the attempt to save anything. You will need to gut down to the floor joists, sister on new members to shore up the damaged ones and begin to rebuild the floor from there.

While you certainly gave us a detailed description of what shape you are in presently, Also give us an idea of where you would like the finished project to be. What type of shower - tiled floor and walls? or prefab base with tiled walls? What kind of floor will the balance of the bathroom have? Will you be relocating existing fixtures or using the existing plumbing?

Like I said, this is what I live for. But I also have a policy of not beginning until I have all ducks in a row and all materials are purchased and on site. This includes the game plan on how to attack each aspect of the remodel from plumbing to electrical to tile to drywall and trim. Some of your questions lead me to believe that there is a certain level of "fly by the seat of your pants" in this project. This usually leads to short-cuts, frustration and shoddy work. So....lets have the final vision so we can all get on the same path.

For your reading pleasure... http://http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html

Oops, almost forgot, welcome to the forums!
 
  #3  
Old 04-30-13, 07:08 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hey thanks for the reply!

Yeah, you got me pegged... I'm notorious for figuring it out as I go. My saving grace though is that I have time on my side so if/when I get stumped, I do take the time to figure it out properly. Downside is that I have had to tear out and redo my work before upon realizing that I've omitted something important. I definitely want to get all my ducks in a row for this project... but there are so many ducks! and I don't even know how many there are or will be. That being said, I'm still very much in the planning/demo phase so I've got some time to plan before it 'gets real' and I'm putting money in and getting things back together.

As for a final product... well, it's a small bathroom with one small window (I'll be replacing the current shower light with a fan/light, I put the roof vent in last weekend and will put the fan in when I reframe.) The shower doesn't get much natural light so it's got to be light/white tile. I want to have the rest of the room to light/neutral as well. As for a color palate, I'm split between soft tans/creams and cool light blue/grey. Trim/toilet white, leaning towards a pedestal sink since the space is small (currently the narrowest vanity i've ever seen lives there. I'll take a picture and post tomorrow)

I looked at some prefab bases, the problems are that my dimensions are non-standard and the current drain is off center in both directions (and would be off center unless I got a teeny tiny base... although I guess if I'm replacing the drain, then it could be relocated.) I saw that custom 'prefab' bases can be made, although for that cost, I figured I could just do my own. As for the other plumbing, the toilet drain is in the right spot, although I don't know about it's height once the old floor is removed. Sink plumbing is fine. Shower plumbing I figure will have have to be replaced. For one, the old handle/dial leaked. Also, I wanted to reframe that wall so it is away from the former exterior wall thus requiring the lines to move forward a few inches.

I hear what your you're saying about trying to salvage the rest of the floor... I think I just needed to hear somebody else say it. I think it'll probably be easier redo the whole floor than try to work around the old crumbling one.

so for sistering the joists, if the old joists are level (albeit slightly damaged in places) then I don't need to jack anything up. I just need to make sure that the tops of the new joists are aligned and level, right?

How about that shower drain. Cut it off, screw it off or hire a plumber to replace? The drain appears to be cast, but it looks like it's been thread on to a steel pipe that runs over to the the stack.
 

Last edited by DIY science guy; 04-30-13 at 07:11 AM. Reason: typos
  #4  
Old 04-30-13, 07:40 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
What do I do with the old shower drain? From below, it looks like it should screw off if I can twist it good once the floor boards are up. Alternately, cut it off and fernco on a replacement. Even if I screw it off, can I do a steel to PVC? or will i just end up putting a coupling in either way.

How do I make sure the new drain is at the appropriate level when I put in the sub floor. Same question with the toilet drain if I tear out the rest of the bathroom floor.
From my experience rip it all out. Floors and all, and install all new sub flooring. Do it right, do it once.

As far as the plumbing, sink, toilet, shower....Cut it all out back to the main stack, Do a repipe from there complete in PVC. Get it out of the outside wall. Redesign the bath accordingly if you have to so can accomplish this.....

This will save you a lot of headaches...trust me....
 
  #5  
Old 05-02-13, 08:02 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Okay, so here's my near future plan. Let me know which things I've overlooked. Oh, and the plan is very general. I appreciate that each item has dozens of details that I've not included here (I think I know most of the main details, but how do you know what you don't know?). I'm of course happy to hear any advice, thoughts, or suggestions.

Plumbing:
1. Tear out old galvanized supplies
- pull it out back to the shut off valves for the bathroom. (I replaced them at the start of the project)

2. Tear out old waste lines back to stack (which is at the corner of this bathroom)
- stack is cast, but most of waste lines into it are galvanized

3. Replace supplies from shut off valves with PEX - 3/4 in to the bathroom
- 1/2 in connections going off supply for shower hot/cold, sink hot cold and toilet cold

Plumbing questions
P1. Advice... should I replace the whole stack now? or just the lines going into it?
P2. the waste for the shower drain has a vent going off of it up through the ceiling into the roof. It's also galvanized. I have access to most of it in the bathroom, although in the attic it's partially hidden because the way the roof over the addition was put on. Should I replace this also? I'm guessing I should
P3. How flexible is PEX around turns? should I put in elbows to run it around the corners for the fixtures?
P4. What sort of attachment should be used for connecting the PVC waste to the stack? I think I'll need to make two or three connections, one for the shower waste and one for the toilet, and one for the sink. That's how it's currently set up. Can the waste pipe for the sink tie into the waste pipe for the toilet?


Flooring/Framing:
1. Tear out the remaining pour floor
2. Tear out rotten framing around old shower door and curb
3. sister new joists to the partially rotted old
- new joists flush and level
4. new subfloor - 3/4 in plywood
- glue and screw it to joists
5. 3/4 in plywood on top of that, screwed into subfloor, not joists 1/8 in gaps in field, 1/4 in at perimeter

for the shower
6. new frame for shower door and curb, shower pan...
- frame it off old exterior wall
- in future, roof felt floor, pour pre-slope, install liner, pour pan, 1/2 in cement board walls...
6. 1/2 in cement board in non-shower part of the bath
- screwed to plywood into subfloor
7. thinset/tile on top

Flooring Questions
F1. Do I need two layers of 3/4 in below the shower and rest of the room? That would give 1 1/2 in below the pan,, and 2 in below the rest of the room
F2. thinset between the cement board and plywood?

I think I'll hold the remaining questions for now since these seem to be the pressing topics.

Oh, and if either of these topics are better addressed in other forums, just say so and I'll start threads there.

All the best!
 
  #6  
Old 05-02-13, 08:11 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Mike can address the plumbing parts better than I can.

Explain what you mean when you say Pour Pre-slope, and pour pan? These are not poured, but packed down floor bed cement.

Add 2x10 blocking between the studs at the base of the shower walls to help hold up the pan liner. You also want to add nail plates covering any electrical or plumbing in the walls to keep from accidentally driving a screw through them.

Mesh Tape and Thinset all seam between CBU on walls and floors.

You only need 1/4" CBU underlayment on the floors set in thinset and screwed down.

Plan your shower door if possible to have the hinge side on the most solid wall of the opening. Depending on the type of door you get, they can be very heavy.

One layer of 3/4" under the shower is OK. You will have several inches of cement on top of that with a liner sandwiched in between.
 
  #7  
Old 05-03-13, 09:06 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply!

For the mortar bed, I was going to follow How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb. which is the best summary of what needs to be done that I've seen. I've filled in most of the blanks from other sources... but, because I'm a naive noob, I mince my terminology quite often. I can see the confusion now, I said 'pour' but that is clearly the wrong term.

On one site, I saw that the mortar bed is pack so solidly that it can support your weight immediately after without leaving a dent... is that really true?

advice for the shower door, a quick search shows quite alot of variability is widths. 25 in and 30 in seems semi common. Also, it looks like most are .75-1.5 inch adjustable if the opening isn't plumb. Is there a standard size?

I suppose it'd be wise to pick out the door ahead and then back calculate the tile and CBU width to get the framing right. do you count the thickness of the thinset in there? I'd guess it's marginal

From some reading, it seems like there's mixed opinions on whether to mesh the CBU wall seams. Leave a 1/8 in gap (silicon caulk) to account for expansion... or tape it up?
 
  #8  
Old 05-03-13, 11:23 AM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Floor mud is different, it is mixed really dry (you will swear it needs more liquid, but it doesn't), the granulars are on the large size compared to the powder you are used to in cement, and you do pack in in hard, watch your thicknesses and slopes. I precut my slopes out of wood 2x4's and custom make them for each shower. I will have 8 or so wedges, pack the mortar, pull each wedge individually and fill in the voids as I go. You can test your "stand on it right away therory", but I would not risk the work you would have put into it at that stage by trying to stand on it.

If you go with a frameless shower door with 3/8" glass, they are very heavy. You want to plan now for needed support to hold something like that up. You can approx. the size of the opening ( on walls add 1/2" for CBU, 1/4" tile and 1/4" mortar) as you have noted, the opening sizes are adjustable for off the shelf and custom made if going that way.

Mesh tape all seams and mortar in place - in corners, in field and on main bath floor (not shower). They make CBU mesh tape which is stronger than drywall tape. It can be found with the drywall tape in the big box store.
 
  #9  
Old 05-08-13, 10:29 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Update

I tore out the subfloor and found several fun surprises in the process. I wanted to expose the drain pipe for the sink so I can replace it. you can see the the demo in progress in one of the images below. The drain is buried in the exterior wall (even mortared in in parts). It runs almost perfectly horizontal over to the stack, roughly 4 ft to the left. There was ~1/2 of deposit that had accumulated inside as a result.

Also visible in that image is the hidden electrical box... yeah, it's live. The junction is right below the floor so it should be easy to fix, but why wasn't it done in the first place.

I demoed the whole floor and found the tops of the joists (spaced 17, 15 and 17 in apart) were horribly eroded and damaged. Should I remove the damaged part before sistering the new joists? there's maybe 3-4 inches that's trashed on the better part of the 4 that run under the room.

Also, I figure I should sister the new joists in a way that minimizes the gap differences, right?

One other issue that I found is what to do with the door ways...

On one side, the wall dividing the bathroom and the next room runs in between two joists. Thus, the flooring running between is unsupported. They supported the old floor by nailing up a 2x10. You can see the top of it in one of the images below. The old version is pretty damaged... should I replace it the same way? or run a new joist and support it properly?

On the other side, there is only the remaining old exterior wall in the door way see below. How can I support the subfloor there?

On a different note, the old supply plumbing came out easy enough, but the drains are a pain... I can't get them to budge. I'll go check the plumbing section of the forum for some help there
 
Attached Images    
  #10  
Old 05-08-13, 02:29 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
You will have to give us some wider shots for us to make suggestions on how to rebuild the floor. I can see the cellar wall with door in the one shot, but can't make out anything in the other. What is the concrete looking stuff in the last picture? is that supporting anything? Pull back as far as you can so we can get orientated correctly. Same for underneath.
 
  #11  
Old 05-09-13, 01:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sure no problem. It's hard to get good wide shots because the space is so small. Oh, and it doesn't help that I've got stairs in the basement that go nowhere and a weird crawl space I've also sketched a side view of the bath. It's very MC Escher'ish. The concrete mentioned in czizzi's last pose doesn't support anything, there's 2.5 ft between it and the joists. (kinda looks like an optical illusion the way the picture was taken).

So my question is how do I support the subfloor right below the doorway since there's no stud there between the two room? The previous worked looks like the diagram below. I'm pretty sure it's not code but it seemed to work well enough before.

How about the other side (with the former exterior wall beneath it. It's just rough uneven masory. Kinda looks like the previous guy chiseled out a spot for the doorway to the bedroom. I suppose I could chisel out another inch, make is as straight and level as possible and the put a support underneath, and shim it up.

Also, I cut out the rotten parts of the joists. In most places it was only a few inches of the top of the board. I'm going to sister new joist to all of these anyways so I thought I'd just get the old junk out now.

Any thoughts? Let me know if you think more pictures will help. I'll try to snap a few tonight to see if I can't get better angles
 
Attached Images        
  #12  
Old 05-09-13, 03:43 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,967
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
I'm jumping in late, guys, so I'll be background support. Why are the joists cut out? They have to be completely replaced or totally sistered from support member to member. The integrity of the joists has been compromised. Not sure if Z answered, but yes, you need at least 1 1/4" of subflooring, and yes you need to thinset the cbu down if that is what you are using prior to tile.

Mike said it best earlier.....tear it all out and do it right.....once.
 
  #13  
Old 05-09-13, 06:56 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
I think he cut out the rot and is planning on sistering. FYI Larry, he has two active threads, one on framing/install and one on plumbing.

You will need to re-route all the electrical prior to sistering your joists. Cut the wires, pull out of the center of the joists and marry in a junction box. We have full pics of the top side, but not of the bottom. Do a full span on your sistered joists to set on the same foundation supports as the original. If not, you will have to plan on intermediary support with a perm. jack post or something.

For the "floating Doorway, You will need to add some cross bracing at the extreme edges of the door to capture any subfloor you will install. Once the cross bracing is secure you can inset some nailing surfaces as needed for your final install.

Where is the shower going to be in relation to the old toilet rough-in?
 
  #14  
Old 05-10-13, 10:13 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hello Larry, welcome to the party! no worries about coming in late. The more the merrier... and it sounds like I need all the help I can get.

Here's the link to the other open thread on the related plumbing. In short, I"m going to replace the old cast stack with PVC.

Yeah, I cut out the rotten parts. In several places it was 2-2 1/2" deep (that's about how much they had protruded up into the previous deck.) I probably was too liberal with removing the rot. I went ~1/2 beyond the obvious bad parts. Here's the removed stretches.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12453[/ATTACH]

Your comment has me thinking though, maybe I should just replace the joists altogether.

About the electrical, I figured that would have to come out to sister the joist properly.

Some more details. On one side, the joist are supported by the foundation and even go into the exterior wall ~2 inches (see below). They span the length of the bathroom (~8'4") and entryway (roughly 5') and and are supported on the entryway side by the the foundation... although the way the house was built, I think this was also formerly an exterior wall. At the junction between the the bathroom and entryway, there is a 6x6" crossbeam (itself supported by 6x6), see below.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12454[/ATTACH]

One note, on the one side, the joists are 'set in' to the foundation (in one case notched, why would anyone do that? I pretty sure its a bad idea to notch the joist to make it fit.) To sister new joists properly without notching, I would have to remove a bit of the foundation/wall so they would be flush the length of the joist.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12455[/ATTACH]

Could/should I just replace the joists under the bathroom all together? If I do, would the 6x6" support the other side? I don't know why, but I have a feeling that is the wrong way to do it.

On a different note, for my own curiosity and knowledge, how far/much of a 2x10 joist can be removed (hole or notch) before the integrity is severely compromised? the previous joist had several ~3" notches (from the top side) for the shower and toilet drains.

As for the layout, my rough sketch is below. I'll put more measurements on it when I get home. Any that you think would really beneficial to know?

As for 'tear it all out and do it right once,' should that include the door frame(s) to the next room too?

All thoughts and advice are appreciated... even if it points out that I'm a stupid naive bonehead!
 
Attached Images     
  #15  
Old 05-15-13, 07:46 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Hi, guys. I've been glancing at this thread for awhile and thought I'd finally chime in - even later than Larry.

DIY, I want to talk just about the floor in this post. Floors are figured top-down and built bottom up, of course.

First question: You want this floor to wind up level with the existing floor(s) through the doorway(s), right? Through both doorways? Are the floors through those doors level with each other now?

Second question: What do you want the floor to be? The 3/4" white hex tile that looks like the original floor and is visible in rotten floor 2 looks really attractive and appropriate, but we don't know what you have in mind. Depending on what you want to wind up with, you might need only one layer of T&G plywood but need several inches of mud base - if, for example, you wanted to install radiant heat wiring embedded in the base.

We can get to the framing, sealing, subfloor, plumbing rough-in and all the other how-tos once you tell us what your vision is.
 
  #16  
Old 05-22-13, 10:09 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hello again, and welcome to the party... Now we can really get going!

thanks for the thoughts about flooring. that makes perfect sense to me.

The two floors in the adjoining rooms are level with each other. The way I know this is that the old floor was ~1/4 in higher than the floor in each room. I think the original old floor was indeed level, and when the put tile over the old tile, they got the height difference that I found when I bought the place.

(side note, I think the original builder's desire to have them all level is why they old floor had that drop down subfloor. that way they could put in the muddeck and get ~2 1/2 inches in most places, but only 1 1/2 in where the joist protruded up.)

As for having them all level again, that would be ideal, and I'm planning on doing it that way.

Currently I've got 2 in from the top of the floor joists. I'm guessing that's not enough to run radiant heating properly. My plan is/was...

1/4 in tile
1/8 in thinset
1/4 in CBU
1/8 thinset
15/32 plywood
23/32 OSB TG subfloor
-Joist

I haven't settled the tile yet. I'm stuck between simple ceramic snow white 6x6" and ceramic light tan (with that natural stone looking patter) maybe also 6x6". I was thinking if i pick white, I might tile up the walls 3-4'... or maybe wainscoting. If the tan, then maybe neither.

I hadn't thought about going back to the 3/4' hexes, I had thought they were out of style, but after some reading, it appears they are quite popular, especially when refinishing in old houses. Those appear to be thinner though at 3/16" but i don't image that will matter much.

So about getting it all level. I was estimating that putting down the thinset with a 1/4" trowel will end up being 1/8" once the tile is set it. Is that close to reality? or not... how do you all estimate it.

one lingering question still bothers me though about supporting the floor over the busted up old exterior wall (you can see the mess in some of the pics in post #11). I can chip it out deeper if need be, but the problem remains that there's not stud to support that side.

Thanks again for your time everyone!
 
  #17  
Old 05-22-13, 12:07 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
one lingering question still bothers me though about supporting the floor over the busted up old exterior wall (you can see the mess in some of the pics in post #11). I can chip it out deeper if need be, but the problem remains that there's not stud to support that side
You need a nailing surface - Install blocking from joist to joist perpendicular to existing joists. Center them min. 16" or shorter where you need support for the subfloor. You don't want your subfloor floating anywhere without support

So about getting it all level. I was estimating that putting down the thinset with a 1/4" trowel will end up being 1/8" once the tile is set it. Is that close to reality? or not... how do you all estimate it.
That will work, I est. 5/8" for the whole sandwich, but in your case it shouldn't matter. You will have some sort of a threshold at the doorways to separate the two different floors. The 1/8 or so variation will not be noticed. I like to use a marble threshold and usually set it on top of the CBU. I usually get the 3/8" thick by 2 1/2"wide by 3' long and cut it to fit.
 
  #18  
Old 05-22-13, 04:07 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Currently I've got 2 in from the top of the floor joists. I'm guessing that's not enough to run radiant heating properly. My plan is/was...

1/4 in tile
1/8 in thinset
1/4 in CBU
1/8 thinset
15/32 plywood
23/32 OSB TG subfloor
What we installed was...

3/16" hex tile
1/16" thinset
3/4" concrete base
wires for the radiant heat
3/4" concrete base
expansion metal
poly sheeting turned up the walls to 6" - 8" aff
3/4" T&G plywood subfloor

That's 2-1/2" if you add up all the stuff with real dimensions. The joists were unplaned 2X8s 16" oc. They had to be cut down by more than 2-1/2" in some areas.

Before laying the subfloor, I installed planed 2X6 cross-blocking, also 16" oc. We dubbed it the "Coke crate frame." That floor was arguably the most solid thing in the house. Once the subfloor was installed it barely vibrated. After the first layer of base cured, It was totally solid and motionless.

I see that Czizzi had explained the way to resolve your wall support problem. The blocking he described there would be the same as I described above.
 
  #19  
Old 05-22-13, 05:04 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
I like to use a marble threshold and usually set it on top of the CBU. I usually get the 3/8" thick by 2 1/2"wide by 3' long and cut it to fit.
I find these thresholds to crack soon after... Maybe just what I have seen, but its common IMO. PITA to replace after... Usually left and forgotten and homeowners just live with it...

Just my opinion though....
 
  #20  
Old 05-22-13, 05:10 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Properly installed, the threshold is treated no different than a piece of tile. Have never been called back to address a threshold issue. It's all in who you hire people.......
 
  #21  
Old 05-24-13, 08:39 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Alright, I've cut my floor joists and test fit them. they appear to be spot on. To support them on the side of the current exterior wall, I chiseled out a notch so they rest on the wall 4" right along side the old joist.

Here's an example of the notch. I know the edge makes the slot look uneven, but it's actual level and flat in the notch and level with the old joist. Whoever said to tear it all out and do it right gets more kudos. With the sister joists next to the old, it's clear that most of the old dip more than 1/4" in the middle, some are closer to 1/2".

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13066[/ATTACH]

So I'm still confused on how best to support the subfloor for this door frame.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13064[/ATTACH]

here's a sideview

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13065[/ATTACH]

The rough concrete is the remains of the former exterior wall. It's about 12" wide. I can't get to the joist on the other side without cutting into the bedroom floor.

My current thoughts are to either 1) chisel it down a few inches and then build it back up to level with the joist with some mortar/cement. let it harden there and then put the subfloor down or 2) same except put the subfloor down while the cement is still wet so it's exactly level with the subfloor.

I don't really like either of these ideas... they both seem wrong to me.

Any thoughts?
 
Attached Images    

Last edited by DIY science guy; 05-24-13 at 09:25 AM.
  #22  
Old 05-24-13, 09:48 AM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Put some metal flashing around the end of your sister boards so they do not set directly on concrete.

You are going to have to excavate to be able to get blocking from one joist to the other under the door by the old exterior wall. Need a solid surface for tile, no floating over concrete. At the very minimum, cross blocking should be installed based on the following. White lines are where you need to install solid blocking so you have a nailing surface for the subfloor. Min. 16" OC or even better 12" OC. Sistered supports need to be also installed to capture and hold the cantilevered portion of the hardwood floor. Blocking of the same dimension as the sistered joists.

Name:  100_03b.jpg
Views: 5701
Size:  44.5 KB
 
  #23  
Old 05-24-13, 11:08 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Put some metal flashing around the end of your sister boards so they do not set directly on concrete.
Use fully dried PT lumber for anything that will touch masonry. IDK if you would also need the metal or not.
 
  #24  
Old 05-29-13, 06:31 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
yeah, I agree. it'd be a shame if the tiled floor cracked and a floating float would certainly lead to this.

I'm excavating out the old exterior wall. it's a chore. I have a hammer drill and have been drilling down several inches (with a few dozen holes across the area) and then chiseling out the rubble. it's been a very slow process. Any thoughts on how to expedite the process? how would a pro remove 12" x 12" x 30" of concrete?

On the other side of the wall is a 6"x6" that supports the floor joists for the other room. They run perpendicular to the joists in the bathroom so I figured I can use joist hangers in the bathroom and support them with the 6x6 on the other side and sister them where they line up. I still have a few hours of excavating left, so there's plenty of time for advice!

Any thoughts?
 
  #25  
Old 06-06-13, 06:39 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hello again all, the saga continues


So I took out enough of that wall for new joist to go in to support the tiled floor in the doorway

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13569[/ATTACH]

A few details:

1. The floor in the bath is temporary (just a sheet a plywood) so I could work on the frame properly.

2. The joists coming from the other room run perpendicular to those in the bath.

3. the joist from the other room are supported by what appears to be a 2x4 running vertical embedded in the concrete wall. You can just see part of the one supporting the joist on the left... is that normal? I think that part of the house is 90 yrs old

4. The 2x4 with the conduit going through it appears to be framing for the basement ceiling in the other room.

Questions:
1. I think i put in two of the joist with joist hangers in the bathroom side and sister them on the other side to the bed room's joists. How much overlap is sufficient?

2. Doing this will leave ~2 inches floating on the left side. Too much?

3. on the right side, there's no joist near to sister with. how could I secure that side?

Any and all advice and thoughts are welcome!

Thanks!
 
Attached Images  
  #26  
Old 06-06-13, 02:13 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Double up on the sistered joist on the left side so you do not have a gap.

Cross block from joists on other room to bridge void on bathroom side and nail your joist from the backside through the blocking to secure

Sister the middle on the left side to not interfere with the cross block on the right.

And....you have a full support wall of concrete underneath to support anything you want (if you would like).

Name:  100_03c1.jpg
Views: 1615
Size:  11.6 KB
 
  #27  
Old 06-07-13, 09:22 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Questions:
1. I think i put in two of the joist with joist hangers in the bathroom side and sister them on the other side to the bed room's joists. How much overlap is sufficient?
As much as you can get. Practically speaking, you won't be able to install screws very far back.

I would cut the sistering pieces to run 18" under the adjoining floor. I would make sure I had a means of holding them up until I could secure them. I would fry-fit everything, mark the end of the old joist on it's sister, slather some construction adhesive om the overlap area, set it, brace it, and screw the two together with 3 or 4 deck screws, using a right-angle drill.

2. Doing this will leave ~2 inches floating on the left side. Too much?
Probably not. Everything you're putting down for the floor should make it stiff enough to take weight for that distance.

Foe belt-and-suspenders, there's no reason you couldn't use a double joist hanger there and add a filler piece off the end of the existing joist and to the left of the sister.

3. on the right side, there's no joist near to sister with. how could I secure that side?
Cross-block to the sister on the middle joist. You can either install the middle sister to the left of the old joist and secure the cross-block to the end of the old joist as well as to the sister, or you could install the middle one to the right and have the cross-block holding it to the joist.

I think I'd install the middle sister to the left. It looks like that would put it closer to being centered between the other two - and I'd cross-block both spaces at the edge of the flooring in the other room.

Whatever you do, you'll have to add some solid support for that floating piece on the right.

[SUP]Edit: I somehow overlooked Czizzi's reply before I typed mine. Looks like we pretty much said the same thing.[/SUP]
 
  #28  
Old 06-24-13, 07:40 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 28
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Alrighty! After much delay and distraction, I finally finished the joists. I followed the collected advice in the last posts and also Czizzi's plan in #22. Here's the result

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14299[/ATTACH]

I didn't snag a good one of the door way through the old exterior wall, but I followed Czizzi's scheme exactly, except that I used a double joist hanger so that I could support the subfloor out to the edge. Likewise on the other doorway, I put in the new 'cross joists' (don't know the technical term, on the right in the image) so that the edges would be supported properly. There's another joist in between. Likewise, I tried to get a cross joist in at the edges of the room so that no corner would be floating

The 23/32" OSB T&G subfloor went next. It was a bit of a pain to fit it in. The floor is 99" long. I figured it would be a bad idea to use two full sheets and 3" of the remaining as 3" would be too puny. Instead, I cut the first sheet so that the 3" odd inches would be 18". This also allowed me to avoid having a 'joint' in either of the doorways. Construction adhesive on the joists and joints, 2 1/2" ringshank nails to keep it down. Here's the result

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14300[/ATTACH]

The final result is nicely level across the field. I don't know what the tolerances are for this sort of thing, but the bubble is in between the two lines in all places and directions. There's no flex anywhere in the field, at least not that I can tell by putting my weight on it, so I'm pretty pleased.

A more accurate measurement of the floor depth now shows that the two rooms are not exactly equal height. I've got 1 1/2" on one side and 1 1/4" on the other. Not sure quite what this means for the set up. I'd guess it's better to make it level with the higher? or split the difference? Any thoughts?

Now I think I should get the electrical sorted for the ceiling lights and the exhaust fan. When I got into the drop down ceiling, I found a horrible rat nest of ancient electrical wires. After that, framing would come next, right?

Thanks again for the advice and thoughts!
 
Attached Images   
  #29  
Old 06-24-13, 10:36 AM
czizzi's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
Looks good so far, the OSB was definitely a measure twice and cut once and pray it fits.

I would be inclined to do my framing first and then run the electrical.

On the floor heights, you are going to have a step up either way you go, whether you match the high or low. So match the easier one. The 1/4" difference will hardly be noticeable after thresholds go in.
 
  #30  
Old 06-26-13, 08:32 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Looking good. This would be a great time to do the electrical, while you don't have to worry about protecting the finished floor.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: