Has Anybody Done an Under Lit Counter Top?


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Old 12-09-14, 09:59 AM
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Has Anybody Done an Under Lit Counter Top?

I'm planning to redo my kitchen counters and wasn't very enthused about it. Then I looked at some backlit Onyx panels and wondered if I could flip it. I'm handy at electrical and I've worked out how to run dimmable LED strips and arrays of 10mm LED's. I was thinking about building the underlayment of some sort of marine plywood and hiding all the electronics in it. I'm even trying to come up with ways to remove some from below and some from the side if they die.

I have a few sample Onyx tiles and they have a nice glow with LED's below. If I use a cement I lose it all since cement is opaque. I know some glues dry translucent. Gorilla advertises an epoxy glue that drys clear but it comes in little tubes and I'd go broke doing 140 sq feet of tile. Has anybody used or know of any products that could glue tile and stay fairly clear?

Steve
 
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Old 12-09-14, 11:47 AM
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There are silicone adhesive that will dry clear but it may take up to 3 weeks for that to take place.
 
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Old 12-09-14, 02:25 PM
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Unfortunatley tile needs 90 to 95% coverage of thinset for proper installation. They will sound hollow and have a greater propensity to break if simply floated over your lights. I would flip them over, layout your lighting, Float them with something like clear bar topping so the lights are encapsulated and then thinset the whole tile/light/bar topping sandwich down to the properly prepared counter top. Sacrifice one as a test to make sure that the bar topping does not short the lights out in the process.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 12:15 AM
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I'm not sticking any lights out. The wiring will all be in channels on the bottom of the underlayment. I'll drill holes for individual LED's and route grooves for strips. I was excited by strips but they rapidly push your 90% rule. I can get it in 8mm wide strips so it will fit in 3'8" wide grooves. The problem is that strips every 4", or 3 per 12" will push below 90%.. If I use 10mm individual LED's in arrays they'll fit in a 1/2" hole. If I put a hole every 2" I'll have exactly 95% coverage. That's 36 LED's per foot. Multiply that by over 100 square feet and my wife will think I've abandoned here for a soldering iron and wire cutters.

When I first started thinking of this I thought I'd have to use some nasty cement so I was trying to figure out how to clean the holes from below. I made a couple of tools with dowels. One type with a cut off razor blade. the other with a sponge. I could clean and then push the lights in. The underlayment would be 1" to 1 1/4" so I could even slant some holes in corners, edges and around cabinet supports. Writing this I'm seeming like some sort of crazy obsessive.

I have another problem coming. I got my first two samples today and they look great but they are two different stones. I'm a long time rock collector and I like to call stuff by their right name, not marketing BS. Onyx is a Metamorphic form of Quartz with some silicates and impurities. Quartz weathered, got buried and exposed to heat and pressure and became Onyx. It doesn't quite have the 7 hardness of pure quartz but is solid. One slab was that. I could do a bit of damage with a knife but not much. The other was real soft. I got a little Muriatic acid and splashed a bit on each. The first did nothing, quartz being pretty inert. The other really fizzed. I'd heard that a type of Calcite called Honeycomb Calcite is sold as Onyx and this is it. It's a shame because it looked better than the real Onyx. Calcite has a hardness of 3 and weak acids can etch it. I'd considered this type of calcite originally because it is pretty but all I could figure was to have 1/4" tempered plate on top. Combine LED's and plate glass it just got too complicated. A knife has a sharpness of 5 to 5.5 and I could scratch plate but not tempered.

I'm going on and on here. I think I'll hang loose and wait for all the samples to arrive. The Pakistan Honeycomb calcite is way, way cheaper than the US but I'm not going to damage my feeble brain tonight. This is already complicated enough.

Steve
 
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Old 12-10-14, 04:12 AM
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My local granite fabricator has a full slab of something hanging as a wall in their office that is backlit and is beautiful. The local granite supplier warehouse, where you go to pick out the slabs, has multiple examples of backlit pieces in the showroom. Might be worth a call or stop in to your local warehouses and see. You could get a whole slab cut to your kitchen and backlit with a single bulb wired under the whole cabinet. Makes the electrical easier anyway... Could be a wash by the time you add up all the transformers, light strips and wiring. AND someone else does the heavy work.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 08:56 AM
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I looked into that. Home Depot has Roberts Model 2057 Premium Vinyl Composition Tile Glue Adhesive. I picked up a quart to check it out. It came out really opaque yellow. I put some on scrap wood varying from really think to almost a half inch. I checked this morning and the thin through a bit less than 1/8" had dried to a yellow tint transparent. The rest was not dry and really opaque yellow.

It's water based so it would be fine around an occupied house. The problem would be that under tile it would take weeks to cure like you said.

Steve
 
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Old 12-10-14, 09:58 AM
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I just discovered this company: SLABlite For lluminating Onyx, Backlit Onyx And Backlighting Onyx Countertops They have this product called SLABlite. It's LED squares that measure 12"x12" by 3/8" thick. They can be cut to fit. I don't know the price yet The squares are glued to the underlayment and the slabs are glued on with DAP DYNAFLEX 230 CLEAR sealant. I'll pick some up and see how well it glues. Make sure its clear. Most are different colors.

czizzi, you mentioned a slab on a wall. That's easy. Nobody's leaning on it or pounding on it and it doesn't require much supports. They could run LED strips sufficiently far back that they could avoid hot spots.

Steve
 
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Old 12-28-14, 02:22 PM
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I've totally given up on diffusion and am going with edge lighting. The tech isn't there yet for diffusion. I'd need 2 to 3 inches to disperse the light and I realized I'd end up with Swiss cheese for an under layer. There are two competing brands of edge lit plastic sheets. One is LuciteLux Light Guide. The other is Acrylite LED (Endlighten). I would have preferred to find a source for the LuciteLux since that seems to be what people were using but there is an online site that sells the other stuff in cut sizes. They'll even polish the edges if you don't know how to use a torch.

It really is an amazing product in terms of the evenness of the light. It seems to be a mix of fiber-optic to guide the light through the sheet and diffusing particles. Applying LED's to any other type of plastic would result in a diminishing brightness over distance. These products come rated by the width of the area you need to illuminate from 12" to 78". You pay more for the higher grades. You use a reflective backing and silver edge tape for the non-LED edges. The edges are supposed to be polished. Here's my first attempt to lay it out on a work table:

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I'm happy with it so far. The big section has the wrong type of LED strip. The LED's are too big and over 1 3/8" apart. Ideally, there are many small LED's very close to each other to diminish hot spots. If I end up with noticeable hot spots I'll use a small band of opaque calcite at the edges.

Does anybody know about working with these plastics or a forum to ask? There are lots of warnings that I should anneal the plastic to avoid crazing. That means to roast the plastic sheets in an oven to avoid creating lots of small cracks in the plastic when it is bonded. I don't want to have build an oven to roast this but crazing in the light guide sheet would ruin it. I'm building a couple of small pieces to see if this happens. I don't care much about the reflective sheet. I'm bonding that to the under layer with a strong plastic glue. Then the light guide plastic and the Calcite will be glued with transparent epoxy. Then 1/4" of tempered plate glass sits on top. It's going to be a LOT of work but will be cool when and if I get it done. I have hopes of having a small piece done in a weeks.

This is going to weigh a LOT more than the existing stuff. I've scouted out the joists in the floor below and have access to salvaged white oak that will be placed all over the place inside the cabinets so unless I break the joists I'm okay.

Steve
 
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Old 12-28-14, 02:39 PM
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Edgelit technology has been around for quite a while in the point of sale industry. I remember designing signage back in '97 or '98. In fact, the LCD screen on the laptop I am typing this on uses edgelit technology to illuminate the screen A micro fluorescent tube the width of my screen back lights the whole liquid crystal display. I know, cause I replace this one. The fluorescent tube is the diameter of a 14ga. wire (if not thinner) and is really something to behold. However, these tubes could help eliminate your "hot spots" as the light is continuous for the length of the tube.

If the material you are using is crystal clear under the surface, the light should travel for a good distance - i.e. fiber optics. The glue between sheets may degrade the light slightly as it passes, but experimentation will advise you on that.

You can experiment with either lexan or plexi glass and see how light transmits. Scratching the surface gives you some light at that point. There are childrens toys that achieve a similar look using fluorescent markers on a clear piece of glass. you may find a paint that will achieve the same luminescence.
 
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Old 12-28-14, 07:28 PM
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From what i've seen there are two competing brands:
Light Guide Panel | Lucite Lux Acrylic

and

http://www.acrylite.net/sites/dc/Dow...nformation.pdf

I'm using the Acrylite since the only option I had for Lucitelux was a whole sheet at a time. You are right that this has been around for awhile but its getting much more affordable. My LED TV is just an edge lit LCD.

It's affordability makes it amazing for the home. Imagine a picture of stained glass that glows or giant panels in your walls with RGB LED's that you program to match your mood.

I don't think the glue will degrade the light. I'm more worried about the edge lit layer getting crazing from being bonded below to the reflective and above to the the stone. Any cracks in it would affect the light traveling through the layer. Right now it is really smooth for the full 24 inches and has a wonderful even light coming through the Honeycomb Calcite (sold as Honey Onyx). I really hope I don't need to build an annealling oven.

Steve
 
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Old 12-29-14, 01:21 AM
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Has Anybody Done an Under Lit Counter Top?

I have a thread out there titled "Are There Any Transparent/Translucent Glues For Setting Tiles?

I was searching when I started it and still considering diffusion so it is getting dated but people have replied to it so I'll leave it alone.

I'd love to hear from people who have done this and learn about problems and solutions and if anybody feels like PM'ing me go ahead. I'm cautiously trying out small pieces and can see some problems. The first is a possibility of ruining the properties of the edge lit plastic with glues. Another is the glues themselves. I can't use anything with common cements in it since it has to let light through and its pushing me towards epoxy, lots and lots of expensive epoxy. I've only used small amounts and wonder about problems here.

I'm planning to make a kitchen counter top of Honeycomb Calcite, a deeply translucent stone. The main type I'm using is called Honey Onyx. I'll also be using some light green and white pieces for accent. If I have any hot spot issues I'll use a narrow band of opaque stone along the edge LED's' It's called Onyx but it ain't. Onyx is a quartz with a hardness of 7 and not very reactive. Honeycomb Calcite is reactive, stains and has a hardness of 3. Therefore its going to be topped with 1/4" of tempered plate glass. This stone would probably work in a bathroom or on walls but not on a surface exposed to knives, pots, ceramics and stains. This is very heavy so I'm going to be bracing the cabinets.

The lights will be on a dimmer so I can change the light intensity. Here's an example of laying out some pieces on a work table. The LED strips are wrong and not on well but it still shows possibility:



I have so many questions and feel totally on my own. For example, is there a cheaper transparent glue than epoxy? Are there issues in using large quantities?

This is where I start.

This is the edge light material I'm using:
http://www.acrylite.net/sites/dc/Dow...nformation.pdf

Here's a competitor that more people seem to use but I haven't been able to get small quantities for test.
Light Guide Panel | Lucite Lux Acrylic

Steve
 
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Old 12-29-14, 04:00 AM
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I have merged the threads. There is no need for a new subject when it is covered in the original thread.
 
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Old 12-29-14, 06:42 AM
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After review of your link, seems the easiest way to approach this would be from the standpoint of a 3 part sandwich. Bottom layer is Lucite with stone on top and plate glass on the top of that. You would not have to epoxy anything. Gravity would hold in place and you would need to protect the edges from moisture only. Moving your stone from edge lit to a back lit piece.
 
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Old 12-29-14, 09:29 AM
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Dear Mod,

I have no issue with the merge. I humbly request that the new title be applied to this thread and the old title retired.. I don't believe I have rights to rename a thread with replies. I started out experimenting with diffusion. The experiment was a success. It proved it was a totally unworkable idea. Now it will be a thread on building an edge lit counter top and at the very least my success or failure will be available for people contemplating similar ideas. I really hope that this thread will be joined by one or more people who have actually done this so I can make this work and avoid painful and expensive detours.
Steve
 
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Old 12-29-14, 10:31 AM
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It's a rather complicated sandwich. The bottom of it is the under layer which holds it all. Usually for tile I've seen 3/4" plywood as a base and cement board on top. With no cement involved and the under layer reasonably free from water I glued together two 1/2" sheets of Baltic Birch plywood with Titebond III. It is the strongest plywood I know of. That's number 1 from the bottom.

Number 2 from the bottom will be a 1/8" layer of ACRYLITE® extruded (FF), sheet, White WT020 GT. This is white, opaque and highly reflective. I am contemplating still gluing it to the under layer since it will still reflect if it cracks inside. Layer 2.

Next is the all important light guide layer of .264". I had been thinking about doing what you suggested and here it will just sit there with LED strips pressed against two polished sides and silver tape on the other two polished sides. Layer 3.

Now the pretty stone. It is 3/8 inch thick. I'll have to cut it very tight. I had been thinking about a pseudo grout of shavings of the rock and some glue like CA but that can't happen since CA glue is the enemy of acrylic. I'll just have to be careful. I chose tile rather than slabs since practical slabs are thick. I am going to have a slightly higher counter top but less than 1/2" higher. The wife would have objected to adding another inch or two. I'll take advantage of the tile by doing a bit of a mosaic. This is layer 4

Layer 5 is the 1/4" tempered plate. I think this could work since I live in Colorado, not California and things don't suddenly shake. I'll have to ensure that the under layer can never sag at all since that could really ruin it all. I'd have under braces of salvaged white oak holding up the under layer and going down to the under floor and joists since this will be very heavy. Quite a sandwich.

This sandwich will be wrapped by 1/2" thick oak with a bit of a chamfer on top. The room has oak floors, oak under counter cabinets on all four walls and a center island. It has above counter oak cabinets on three walls and a oak set of cubby holes going to the ceiling on the fourth. It will have a notch cut along the light guide plastic where LED strips It will be potentially removable since it will be held in place by brass screws. I'll use clear silicone against the top glass and stone and the bottom under layer to prevent water infiltrating. It will be stain matched and urethaned before being applied. I've found silicone glued items can be removed by being cut with a sharp thin blade.

The unresolved issue is the backsplash. I had been planning on edge lighting this also. It would be 2 3/8" of stone with capping pieces of stone and edge pieces with a bit of a chamfer to avoid sharp edges. This has to have glue. My latest idea is to give up on a uniform lighting for the top and edges. I could have a 1/4" to 3/8" strip along the top and sides with 0.093 Acrylic glued to it. It could then have the stone glued to it. This could create internal pockets that the edge lighting could be slid into once the glue is safely dry. Think this would work. On long runs I could have these strips every two feet or less so that there would be dark bands and edges but still a lot of light. This would be a 1/4" plywood backing to glue to the wall. The reflective strip and light guide would each be 1/8" so the material holding the outer acrylic would be a bit more than 1/4". Add the stone and I have about a 1" thick backsplash. That would work and not contaminate the light guide.

Steve
 
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Old 12-29-14, 07:28 PM
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What about cutting the glass top 3/4" larger than the rest of the counter top such that it forms a void under the backsplash area that you can insert T8 flourescent strip lighting or your lighting of choice that would illuminate both the counter and the backsplash at the same time. Would allow for easier access for service down the road as well.
 
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Old 12-31-14, 12:35 PM
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I'm toying with the idea of installing an underlit onyx countertop for my bathroom double vanity, but not sure how feasible that is.

For starters, I'm not sure how this can be done in conjunction with undermounted porcelain sinks. You would need a cutout in the base plywood large enough to accomodate the sink mounting. The edge-lit lighting layer would also need the same cutouts, so you'd have dark rings around the sinks, right? I suppose the solution would be to use an overmount sink (my wife doesn't want basins).

Next, there's the lighting. Simplest solution would be to use a tempered glass underlayment and just run a bunch of lighting inside the vanity cabinets, but the downsides are (a) uneven lighting, and (b) light will seep out through the cabinetry. Seems like some sort of edgelit panel or tiles on top of a plywood underlayment would be necessary.

What's the price on the SLABlight tiles? I like that they're modular and can be easily cut to fit.
 
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Old 01-01-15, 11:38 PM
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Here's one for sale in Denver: Name:  Vanity.jpg
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You can do a decent job of lighting because you have what I don't - distance, Even 3 to 4 inches with a light diffusing panel would give you even lighting with no hot spots. You'd have the lower part of the vanity. You couldn't have drawers directly below without going the edge lighting approach. You are right that a regular sink would cause a dark circle. There are ways around it. Using this stuff falsely called Onyx would be a big mistake for a sink. It would scratch, stain, etch and if you get drastic - melt. I have seen glass sinks. They look like heavy cast plate. They are mostly silvered on the bottom or translucent since who wants to look at plumbing? That could be lit.

Steve
 
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Old 01-02-15, 12:27 AM
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I'm continuing, It is a major bummer that the Acrylite edge light panels do not tolerate ANY glue. It's extruded, not cast like the luciteLux Light Guide which I still can't get in smaller pieces. I thought about it and I can work with it. It changes the design since I can't get away with long runs of free floating stone. Every couple of feet I'd have break them up with something. Since I'm working with an oak kitchen so I could have regular strips that go to the base of the plate glass.

It does gives somethin of a LEGO feeling to it all. I figured that I'd do a test run on a small edge to the stove, only a little over 15" wide. Here's a sandwich:

[IMG][/IMG]

The bottom inch is Baltic Birch ply. It looks like two pieces but those are some grooves cut for the wires. Next is a silvered package with about 1/8 of opaque highly reflective white plastic. Then is 0.264" of Acrylite Endlighten with LED's at each each. That mess is a crummy heat wrap over wires. To the left is 1/2" of unfinished oak. I glued a strip to ride over the plastic and made oversize to edge the stone. I then planed it to match the top of the stone so glass can be laid on top. The oak isn't quite 90 degrees. on purpose. If there are issues I can pull the plastic panel out. The oak edging also hides hot spots and places where I got over enthusiastic with silver tape. You can see the stone is busy being translucent and has 1/4" of plate glass on top. The oak will be finished and stained to match the kitchen oak. It will be held on by brass screws through the oak into the ply and lots of clear silicone. Here's where it is now with 4 pieces of stone cut.



Tomorrow I cut 45's in the middle and do a sort of mosaic with a different color. Then It's backsplash time plus getting the power supply, dimmers and wiring installed.

Steve
 
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Old 01-05-15, 03:23 PM
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Oh my. SLABlite wants $65 per sqft tile. Looks like I would be far better off just buying an ACRYLITE panel and edge lighting it myself with LED strips.
 
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Old 01-05-15, 04:20 PM
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A far less-expensive and more time-expediant solution would have been to buy an assortment of low-voltage lights with a master dimmer, all commercially available from several different sources. I did an entire kitchen remodel using them a few years ago in just 2 leisurely afternoons, spending barely $400 total.

I must have had 20 subsequent visitors to the house ask me who did the lighting for me, it looked that good.
 
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Old 01-05-15, 10:04 PM
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BridgeMan,

I assume you're talking about putting LED strips on a dimmer or two with a power supply. Warm white strips scattered around give a much nicer light than a small number of bright lights. Were these lights pointing down? I mean down at the floor, counter tops and so on? I could do that for $400 too.

If you had LED strips lighting translucent stone from below. If they all had a nice even glow from below the rock and you did that for $400 I need instruction from you. I humbly request information. Pictures please! Lots and lots of pictures.

If I ever get this project off the ground I expect that LED strips under cabinets and any place I can hide them will be the primary lighting but its all a side issue to how the heck to have glowing stones. I really need advice here.

Steve
 
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Old 01-05-15, 10:45 PM
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Mirak,

I'm not sure the Acrylite is the answer. I'm learning more about plastics than I ever wanted to. Acrylite is extruded which means is was pooted out of a machine under pressure and has all sorts of stresses in it. Gluing, or bonding as the plastics guys say, is essentially welding plastic and it can do weird stuff to it. It can craze which is lots of cracks like it was hit with a hammer. I tried gluing a pieces of the Acrylite Endlighten to a backing piece and it didn't look crazed but the fiber optic part was gone and the light was uneven. Under a 10x loupe I could see tiny cracks. That was with clear epoxy.

The Acrylite edge light material is amazing. I can take a 2 foot wide piece and put a dimmed strip on one side and see it totally clear on the other like it was an inch away. I had been trying to think of how I could just have it sitting there and it just doesn't seem workable. How the heck do I make a glowing back splash? I'd been thinking of making a pocket for the Acrylite using plywood for the back and regular clear plastic for the sides and front. It just doesn't seem strong enough to glue heavy rock. I could see it popping off.

There might be an alternative and that is Lucitelux Light Guide Panels (LGP). They are cast, not extruded and according to their specs seem to be very craze resistant. The only problem is I can't get it. I got a sky high crazy quote for a sheet and they kept tacking on $150 'small order' and $175 'special shipping' and other fees to the point where the SLABlites didn't look so bad. I really just want a few square feet to try and see if it will work. I can't find anybody selling pieces online like the Acrylite shop. EMCO claims they do but they never answer their contact form.

With Acrylite the issue is bonding with some material that won't react with the plastic. It can't be a glue that 'cures' clear. Stuck between two sheets of plastic it might as well be in a bottle. That's why I was looking at activated glues like epoxy.

I have been thinking about silicone. The problem is that most of the decent clear stuff I saw was smelly which means volatile stuff in there which might mess up the plastic.

There's also a process called annealling but I don't want to go there. Baking sheets of plastic in my house will make me a single guy.

Any suggestions? A glue that will harden or stay sticky, is transparent and won't react with plastic.

Steve
 
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Old 01-06-15, 07:16 AM
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This might be out there, and probably not dimmable, but just a thought to keep you thinking and experimenting.

What about fluorescent paints and a black light to get your under counter glow? The paints would be at a hobby or craft store. Black lights are everywhere, but you could experiment for just a couple of bucks.
 
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Old 01-06-15, 08:59 AM
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Acrylite sells a number of epoxys that are supposed to prevent craze. For my application, I don't think it matters because I shouldn't need to afix the onyx countertop on top of the acrylite. The top is big enough that gravity should hold it in place just fine.

My plan is to build the vanity cabinets with a plywood top, then lay the acylite on top with a small amount of adhesive. I don't care about messing up the light distribution on the plywood side with adhesive.

As for the edge lighting, I plan to run a small piece of molding along the top front of the cabinet that will extend to just below the top of the acrylite (I want to ensure the Onyx puts its weight on the panel - not the molding). I'll set the edge of the acylite a half-inch away from the molding, leaving a nice little channel to adhere my LED lighting strip to the back of the molding facing into the acrylite. I'll also make sure there is a half-inch gap between the acrylite and the back wall, so I can adhere my other LED strip there.

Next, the onyx goes on top, with sink holes (for overmount sinks) precut. I'll then use a jigsaw to cut out the acrylite/plywood below. Should be able to drill straight through the entire "sandwich" for the faucet holes.
 
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Old 07-03-15, 10:49 PM
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First Steps

Well I'm back with the first step. It took a long time with vacations, illness and urgent projects but here is the first piece. It is the smallest pieces of countertop. The bext three will be roughly 4' by 2'. Forgive the poor picture. Glowing rock is hard to get a good picture:
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It is quite a sandwich. He bottom is two 1/2” sheets of Baltic birch plywood glued together and urethaned. Next is a layer of opaque reflective white plastic. Then there is a layer of 0.236” of Lucitelux LGP. The edges are polished. If there is not an LED strip on the edge it is covering with reflective tape. Next is 3/8” thick Onyx (Honeycomb Calcite). Finally there is a layer of 1/4” tempered plate glass since the stone is soft.

All of the plastic layers are glued with IPS-40. It seemed to craze less than anything other than epoxy and was easier to work with. The plate glass is not glued. I used lots of silicon when fastening putting it against/under the backsplash. And the oak. The oak is chamfered and attached to the ply with heavy decorative brass panhead bolts. Thee edge of the oak line up with the glass so thebre is no exposed glass edges.

It worked. There are actually three dimmers back there. One is for the edge lighting. One is for the under counter LED lighting. The 3rd goes off to some artsy strips up above the counters.

It is very, very attractive but lots of work and lots of money. The layers all cost. Led strips and glues add up.

The color of the stone is amazing. I ruined the great pieces on early attempts and was left with pieces with dimmer spots.

Another issue is color matching the oak. My kitchen, actually my house, is full of a sort of golden oak cabinets, drawers and shelves. It was done awhile ago and it is very yellow. Modern golden oak has brown shades but this doesn't. I found a Minwax stain that worked well but when I put the brush lacquer on the strips it sucked the color put of the wood and ended up natural. I need a better way. I used lacquer since it is hard and handles abuse better. I've seen urethane discolor when a hot pot was put on it and this is a kitchen.

I'm now planning the other pieces. This pieces is easy to maintain. The LED strips are under the wood. I can unscrew them if a strip dies. I want to be able to remove the strips from the back if they die and am experimenting with metal U channels.

This is a totally insane project but it is fun and I'll see how far I take it. I really need a saw that cut proper miters. It doesn't show well in the the picture but there is a mosaic white stone in the middle. My Ryobi can't cut miters at all. I cut them small and belt sanded to fit which is not practical. Any suggestions that won't break the bank?

Steve
 
 

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