Shower wall extension


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Old 05-18-21, 09:25 AM
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Shower wall extension

Need your input and ideas. Just came back from local shower door contractor. Learned several things. First, the shower doors are the very last thing. Everything should be done before hand and the shower should be in perfect operating condition. Tiling, plumbing, painting, or whatever should be done so that the shower is usable without doors. When I showed them pictures they even suggested that possibly I won't even need a shower door. This is the second time that was suggested to me (It may have been 2John or Marq with that suggestion). In addition it was suggested not to build the wall section to the ceiling, just as high as if a door was to be used. So I'm looking for ideas on how to build the wall sections on either side of shower entrance. The pictures show the openings and using some 2 x 4 blocks I’m showing what might be done. Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

as it now stands

possible ideas and questions


view from inside shower

window side

This wall will be ceramic tiled inside of shower


 

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05-18-21, 11:12 PM
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Here is an exterior picture of the walk in shower!
 
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Old 05-18-21, 09:49 AM
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Yes, you can go without a shower door but do you want to? In the winter it's much colder and drafty showering without a door. I have a full swing hinge on mine so it can swing in both directions. In summer the door folds into the shower and is flush against the wall. In winter we close the door to keep it warm.

The trouble with a wall that doesn't go to the ceiling is strength. They are generally ok on their own but I don't like the idea with a heavy glass door unless you are good about reinforcement so the wall doesn't move. If doing tile give the wall a good shove or wiggle to see how rigid it is before installing the tile.

I hate to say it, but my goto is steel especially if doing a half height wall. I would make or buy standard Simpson brackets and modify them as needed to provide a good tie-in to the adjoining studs that doo go floor to ceiling.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 10:02 AM
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I think a short wall will not look good if there is not a door there to relate it to. I would build it full height. If the tile inside is going up to the ceiling a short wall will add finishing detail problems.

I would build the stubs as if they were full depth walls. Studs with spacers. Maybe have to trim studs for an angle at meeting with existing walls. If you add a door you will need the full width stud for support.

Either continue the line of the pan at the right hand side and use some trim to close the "bump" (if there is one) caused by the location or dimension. Or continue the line from the corner of the wall parallel to the pan and tile (bullnose or trim) to the corner that it forms just beyond the edge of the pan.

On the window (left) side you will need a stud or nailer in the wall behind to attach your cement board wall. Probably a 2x6 flat. Then a 2x4 either way as shown (not the last picture) but with angled filler to smooth out the joint at the existing wall. Carry the line of the pan to the wall and trim there. Tile inside the pan limit up to the trim or corner (bullnose edge).

In all cases you need to avoid any tile outside corners that are not 90 degrees as finishing them nicely without using trim is very difficult.



Tile bullnose at drywall corner

Tile bullnose at tile corner
 
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Old 05-18-21, 10:39 AM
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It seems you all tend to go for the full floor to ceiling height wall. As far as strength or wall rigidity goes, if a door is used it will be hinged on the window side and swing into the shower. So this begs the question, how do I bring the wall up to ceiling? Do I just friction fit to the existing ceiling wall board or cut into the wall board? And I won't know about any joist being available to nail to. Getting up in the crawl space is not going to be an option.
If I go with the less than ceiling height wall, I will finish the top and side with the ceramic tile.
The glass shower dealer (who by the way specializes in custom shower doors) suggested to try without door and then decide if I want it. He did not seem to think there would be any problem with wall integrity. But if I do go less than ceiling on the wall I'll be sure make it strong and ridged.

PD,
my goto is steel especially if doing a half height wall. I would make or buy standard Simpson brackets and modify them as needed to provide a good tie-in to the adjoining studs that doo go floor to ceiling.
Do you mean steel studs? And I'm not familiar with Simpson Brackets. Are they not just the typical steel connectors used for decks and rafter connections?

I'm very aware of picking out tile that will have accessories such bull nose, corners and jelousy molding.

Another question...Is there any real difference between cement boards? Comparing Durock brand, Schluter system, and Hardie board? I have several left over cement board from last bath remodel. And do you suggest Red guard in addition. I did not use Red guard on my other bath remodel and have had no problems.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 11:06 AM
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If going floor to ceiling with the wall you probably need to cut open the ceiling to install 2x4's or similar between the joists so you have something to secure the top of the wall.

If doing partial height walls by steel I mean steel brackets that tie back into the structure of the house to reinforce the half wall so it doesn't wiggle or move. It is hard to make the end of a partial height wall rigid and it's really hard to make it rigid enough to support tile that doesn't crack if someone slips and falls into the wall.

I use both cement board and Hardie Backer. If the store is out of one I would not hesitate to buy the other. Neither is waterproof so you need a membrane in addition to provide the water protection. Schluter is a different thing and their rigid board products include a waterproof membrane on one face. It's more expensive for just the board but since it already has the membrane it can save cost through labor savings. If you've ever installed a rubber (EDPM) membrane and then tile backer Schluter can be a dream especially for corners and odd shapes.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 11:13 AM
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If you can't find structure above to fasten to, a shallow header on top of the studs tied into the walls on both sides would work.



 
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Old 05-18-21, 12:35 PM
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I second 2john regarding “If you add a door you will need the full width stud for support.”

I recently updated a 20 year old molded shower with a frameless hinged shower door. The glass door weighed 70# and there were no studs behind where it was to be hung. Be sure you anticipate where you will place the door and build accordingly.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 01:08 PM
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Just how important is using a water proof membrane? None of my baths used even green board. When I did my main bathroom remodel with a tear down to the studs and tub replacement the old wallboard was just that. And it was as dry as a bone. No thanks to the previous owner who were not very careful with house care. All I did was use cement board and tiles over that. It’s been perfect ever since. And my current remodel is back to back from the previous bath I can see the cement board used is still perfect.
I did some checking on Red Gard and of course saw lots of great reviews. But the few bad reviews I saw is giving me pause about using anything. I hear it does not adhere well to HARDIE board or cement board which I plan to use.

I’d consider the Schluter system but at near $40 a sheet seems damn expensive. I would need about 7 to 8 sheets. The money is not the problem but is it worth it?
 
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Old 05-18-21, 03:38 PM
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Bouncing this off you guys is giving me some more ideas. After looking at this and considering your advice to go all the way to the ceiling I think this will do the job. See pic. Although the extension will be at an angle, I should be able to catch enough of the ceiling joist to secure the wall addition. No need to go into crawl space and add anything.

I'll need to determine the best position of the 2 x 4's. I have them positioned to allow for the wall board and floor molding. Do you think it will be necessary to remove the existing wall board on that edge? Or can I just leave it in place and nail spacers against it if need be?

Also after due consideration I think I'm going to go with the Schluter system. I'm estimating this whole remodel to cost me between $5000 and $7000 if I DIY. If I had it done I'm estimating this about $10,500 or more. So a few hundred for the Schluter system is nothing to worry about.

I'll need to remove the toilet to make an easier working area.


Do I position the 2 x 4 in this direction ?

or in this direction?
 
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Old 05-18-21, 03:59 PM
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Just how important is using a water proof membrane?
I think I have posted these pictures before. Exterior walls in the path of shower spray. Tile on green board. No cement board or waterproofing. It took about 25 years for this to happen but it did. Water never made it to ceiling/wall below due to copper shower pan but weeped through exterior shingles and showed up as ice in winter.

Replaced with a Wedi System for $1722 materials and $$810 labor in 2016.





It is possible that the ice on the shingles is from the bathroom wall above. Roofer could not find any evidence of ice dam.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 04:10 PM
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Do I position the 2 x 4 in this direction ?
I would do it as showing the first picture. Double stud at shower pan. 2x4 at existing wall trimmed to appropriate angle. Blocking at several points between.
 
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Old 05-18-21, 04:31 PM
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suggested that possibly I won't even need a shower door
you can go without a shower door but do you want to? In the winter it's much colder and drafty
Yep, that was me, so having this for now over 8 years I can attest that was one of our initial concerns, actually just the opposite occurs.

Once that hot water starts flowing there is a solid outflow of warm moist air, in fact we have a large in-line fan with an inlet in the showier that runs when in use and even with that noting, no cold air, no draft!

Just how important is using a water proof membrane?
Well, membrane systems are the absolute fool proof way to go, I spent over a year on this remodel and was never going to tear into it unless it was my choice, Ditra, that brand I used was flawless install.





 
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Old 05-18-21, 11:12 PM
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Here is an exterior picture of the walk in shower!
 
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Old 05-19-21, 04:03 AM
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Nice!________________________________________________
 
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Old 05-19-21, 04:11 AM
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2John wrote...
I would do it as showing the first picture. Double stud at shower pan. 2x4 at existing wall trimmed to appropriate angle. Blocking at several points between.
So I figure I'll cut a 2 x 4 to length from the floor without a footer to the ceiling. Trace the location on the ceiling, cut out the wallboard. Then add a footer to the floor and cut that amount + thickness of ceiling wall board from 2 x 4 and fit and nail to joist and footer.

I'd like to ask again, do you think it's necessary to remove the wallboard from the existing edge of wall?
 
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Old 05-19-21, 06:50 AM
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do you think it's necessary to remove the wallboard from the existing edge of wall?
I don't see any reason to remove it unless leaving it will cause a problem finishing the joint between the old and new. Given the likely change in materials and angle of the joint, trim may be necessary. If there is drywall on the upper part of the new wall the existing corner bead may show through a taped joint there and a J-bead may be needed where the new wall meets the non-drywall material adjacent to the toilet area.
 
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Old 05-19-21, 08:29 AM
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Norm,

I just had my morning shower brainstorm.

I would work my way out from the existing wall.

Nail a footer to the floor.
If you can catch the joist above nail a 2x4 or 1x4 top plate to the ceiling. (No need to remove drywall if you know where to catch the joist.) If the nailing point of top plate is near one end and other end seems loose, toggle bolt or molly it to the ceiling to prevent side movement. Most of the support comes from the existing wall.

Trim stud to angle (if necessary) and nail to end of existing wall. Toenail into footer and plate.
Nail spacer blocks to stud.
Nail first (of double) stud to spacers. Toenail into footer and plate.
Nail second of double stud to first. Toenail into footer and plate.

I said nail out of habit but screws would be better.
 
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Old 05-19-21, 08:40 AM
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I like the way you think! That would avoid cutting into the drywall ceiling and trying to tape and the cut edge. And like you said there is no real strain on the wall for supporting it should work out fine. The toggle bolt idea is a good one too.
 
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