no blind stop on my casement windows
#1
08-12-02, 08:13 PM
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no blind stop on my casement windows
hi
last year i replaced many of the original 1920's double hungs in my house, and it was such a success, this year i decided to do a couple of casement windows on the second floor. however, there is something i don't understand.
the present original casements look like they were built in place rather than put in as a unit. there appears to be no outside blind stop and i was thinking i would push the replacement unit into the frame of the old window until it hits the blind stop, then i would screw it in.
what do i do? Install a blind stop where i want the outside of the window to sit?
also, the two sashes in the original casement window are separated by a mullion? or a divider jamb. when i removed the interior trim covering the divider jamb, i noticed it is hollow. Basically it is 1X material that runs vertically into the finished sill. When I cut these divider jambs out to put in the replacement unit, there will be a hole in the finish sill. Any recommendations besides replacing the sill?
I would appreciate answers to both questions. And, thanks a lot.
bob
last year i replaced many of the original 1920's double hungs in my house, and it was such a success, this year i decided to do a couple of casement windows on the second floor. however, there is something i don't understand.
the present original casements look like they were built in place rather than put in as a unit. there appears to be no outside blind stop and i was thinking i would push the replacement unit into the frame of the old window until it hits the blind stop, then i would screw it in.
what do i do? Install a blind stop where i want the outside of the window to sit?
also, the two sashes in the original casement window are separated by a mullion? or a divider jamb. when i removed the interior trim covering the divider jamb, i noticed it is hollow. Basically it is 1X material that runs vertically into the finished sill. When I cut these divider jambs out to put in the replacement unit, there will be a hole in the finish sill. Any recommendations besides replacing the sill?
I would appreciate answers to both questions. And, thanks a lot.
bob
#2
08-13-02, 04:11 AM
Casements that swing outward normally wouldn't have a blind stop.....there being no need for it....the only stop you have is an inside one that the sash closes up to. New ones, like Andersens, are built the same way.
You can basically position the replacment anywhere in the opening you want. If you're using a regular vinyl replacement, the depth or thickness of the frame is 3 1/4" ( which is the thickness of two standard double hung sashes.....what these windows were "really" designed to replace)....Since a casement has only one sash, the depth from the inside stop outward to the plane of the jamb moulding (or brick moulding on newer ones) is only in the 2" range......Sooooo if you set the replacement against the inside stop, you'll find the replacement probably sticks out too far.....maybe even PAST the plane of the moulding outside. What this means is, to get a "normal" look to the window, you will probably have to remove the inside stop and pull the replacment back to the inside in the old casement frame.
On most newer casements, this is no problem, as the inside stop is just nailed on the frame. Pop it off, remove the crank gear and hardware, and you have a nice clean opening to mount the replacement about anywhere in the old frame you want. On SOME newer ones, and maybe yours too, the stop is an integral part of the frame....you actually have to chisel the darn thing off, then cover the buggered up area with the new window.
As to installing a stop outside, you can do that.....I don't, but then I'm covering the outside completely with a aluminum trim coil to match the window color, bent to form over the outside mouldings and wrap onto the window. I size my replacement so it fits the old frame as tight as possible, caulk the seam where the two meet, then cover with the trim coil. If you are NOT using trim coil, but painting the old wood exterior, then I'd probably install a stop to hide that new window/old frame joint.
As to the "hole" in the sill where you're taking out the center mullion, you can either replace the sill ( sometimes hard to do and match the old wood or color if stained), or install something like a quarter round on top the sill to hide it....If it were in my house, I'd replace....even if you have to replace ALL the inside moulding around the window to make it match.....
If you take off the inside stop as I said above, the sill probably has to come off too so you can pull the new window back to the inside some......you might be able to rip enough off the sill to take away the "hole" and then re-install the narrower sill.
You can basically position the replacment anywhere in the opening you want. If you're using a regular vinyl replacement, the depth or thickness of the frame is 3 1/4" ( which is the thickness of two standard double hung sashes.....what these windows were "really" designed to replace)....Since a casement has only one sash, the depth from the inside stop outward to the plane of the jamb moulding (or brick moulding on newer ones) is only in the 2" range......Sooooo if you set the replacement against the inside stop, you'll find the replacement probably sticks out too far.....maybe even PAST the plane of the moulding outside. What this means is, to get a "normal" look to the window, you will probably have to remove the inside stop and pull the replacment back to the inside in the old casement frame.
On most newer casements, this is no problem, as the inside stop is just nailed on the frame. Pop it off, remove the crank gear and hardware, and you have a nice clean opening to mount the replacement about anywhere in the old frame you want. On SOME newer ones, and maybe yours too, the stop is an integral part of the frame....you actually have to chisel the darn thing off, then cover the buggered up area with the new window.
As to installing a stop outside, you can do that.....I don't, but then I'm covering the outside completely with a aluminum trim coil to match the window color, bent to form over the outside mouldings and wrap onto the window. I size my replacement so it fits the old frame as tight as possible, caulk the seam where the two meet, then cover with the trim coil. If you are NOT using trim coil, but painting the old wood exterior, then I'd probably install a stop to hide that new window/old frame joint.
As to the "hole" in the sill where you're taking out the center mullion, you can either replace the sill ( sometimes hard to do and match the old wood or color if stained), or install something like a quarter round on top the sill to hide it....If it were in my house, I'd replace....even if you have to replace ALL the inside moulding around the window to make it match.....
If you take off the inside stop as I said above, the sill probably has to come off too so you can pull the new window back to the inside some......you might be able to rip enough off the sill to take away the "hole" and then re-install the narrower sill.
#3
08-13-02, 11:01 AM
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thanks for the info so far.
my only question is regarding you mentioning that the inside stops are sometimes an integral part of the jamb and that they have to be chiseled out. do i understand this correctly: the inside stops which probably measure 3" wide and are at least 36" long, might have to be removed by chisel? This sounds intense and messy. Do I understand this correctly?
Otherwise, I think I have a good plan of attack and I will start them in the fall.
thanks
my only question is regarding you mentioning that the inside stops are sometimes an integral part of the jamb and that they have to be chiseled out. do i understand this correctly: the inside stops which probably measure 3" wide and are at least 36" long, might have to be removed by chisel? This sounds intense and messy. Do I understand this correctly?
Otherwise, I think I have a good plan of attack and I will start them in the fall.
thanks
#4
08-13-02, 01:38 PM
Robert:
This is one of those situations where a picture would help a LOT....I've never run into a casement where the stops are that wide.....usually you're talking maybe an 1 to 1 1/2" or so....without seeing yours, I can't really say how I'd approach it.....can you maybe post a picture ??
Your walls must also be thicker than normal.....If the stop is that wide, plus give another 1 1/2" for the sash, it would project past the outside of a typical 2x4 wall....
This is one of those situations where a picture would help a LOT....I've never run into a casement where the stops are that wide.....usually you're talking maybe an 1 to 1 1/2" or so....without seeing yours, I can't really say how I'd approach it.....can you maybe post a picture ??
Your walls must also be thicker than normal.....If the stop is that wide, plus give another 1 1/2" for the sash, it would project past the outside of a typical 2x4 wall....
#5
08-13-02, 05:43 PM
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sorry, i am a little techo-backwards so sending a photo is impossible. But, I am sure I will have a better picture once I take apart the existing window and see what is permanently part of the frame and what is not.
As I said before, the inside stops are pretty wide but I haven't measured them exactly. But, the casement window is really just a very narrow sash on hinges screwed to the outermost section of the frame. The rest is inside stops that meet the inside trim of the window. So, if we have a 1920's house with old 2x4's, then there is probably about 3'' of inside stop. There is no parting bead given it is a single sash window.
In any event, I plan on doing this in the fall when I will take off the inside trim and see if the stops are a integral part of the frame or are they nailed on. I would love to discover that they are nailed on and once removed, will reveal a nice frame in which I can place the new replacement window.
I must say, I am a little jealous when I hear people like you say they don't use a blind stop because you wrap the window in aluminum. I am a relative newcomer at remodeling with my experience coming only from a few books, nice people like you, and a few projects that I have done to my own house so I must say that this wrapping the outside trim sounds beyond me. Also, my exterior is shingles and wood trim and putting aluminum on just the trim I think might look a little strange.
thanks again and I will keep reading if you have a response.
bob
As I said before, the inside stops are pretty wide but I haven't measured them exactly. But, the casement window is really just a very narrow sash on hinges screwed to the outermost section of the frame. The rest is inside stops that meet the inside trim of the window. So, if we have a 1920's house with old 2x4's, then there is probably about 3'' of inside stop. There is no parting bead given it is a single sash window.
In any event, I plan on doing this in the fall when I will take off the inside trim and see if the stops are a integral part of the frame or are they nailed on. I would love to discover that they are nailed on and once removed, will reveal a nice frame in which I can place the new replacement window.
I must say, I am a little jealous when I hear people like you say they don't use a blind stop because you wrap the window in aluminum. I am a relative newcomer at remodeling with my experience coming only from a few books, nice people like you, and a few projects that I have done to my own house so I must say that this wrapping the outside trim sounds beyond me. Also, my exterior is shingles and wood trim and putting aluminum on just the trim I think might look a little strange.
thanks again and I will keep reading if you have a response.
bob
#6
08-14-02, 04:13 AM
Bob:
Your approach makes good sense in taking the casing off and see what you actually have....It may be you have to just pull the whole window, reframe a "box" for a frame, then mount the window in that, or use a new construction window if you can find one sized close enough to your rough opening.
Wrapping the wood exterior is not a real hard thing to do....you mainly have to get access to a sheet metal brake, which they rent here at the local Rentall, and probably do most places. The aluminum is either pre-painted or a PVC/woodgrain look type coilstock in 24"x50' rolls ( about $50-60/roll) and colors to match about anything you want to match. You cut to lenght and bend on the brake to match the turns on your existing trim, so it's like a second skin on the wood......looks the same, but nice and newly "painted" and stays that way.
One of these days I'm going to take pics of "how to do this" and take advantage of the free website my ISP offers to post this......or MAYBE put it on a CD and charge a few bucks for it....hmmmmm....I smell a biz opp here
Your approach makes good sense in taking the casing off and see what you actually have....It may be you have to just pull the whole window, reframe a "box" for a frame, then mount the window in that, or use a new construction window if you can find one sized close enough to your rough opening.
I must say, I am a little jealous when I hear people like you say they don't use a blind stop because you wrap the window in aluminum. I am a relative newcomer at remodeling with my experience coming only from a few books, nice people like you, and a few projects that I have done to my own house so I must say that this wrapping the outside trim sounds beyond me. Also, my exterior is shingles and wood trim and putting aluminum on just the trim I think might look a little strange
Wrapping the wood exterior is not a real hard thing to do....you mainly have to get access to a sheet metal brake, which they rent here at the local Rentall, and probably do most places. The aluminum is either pre-painted or a PVC/woodgrain look type coilstock in 24"x50' rolls ( about $50-60/roll) and colors to match about anything you want to match. You cut to lenght and bend on the brake to match the turns on your existing trim, so it's like a second skin on the wood......looks the same, but nice and newly "painted" and stays that way.
One of these days I'm going to take pics of "how to do this" and take advantage of the free website my ISP offers to post this......or MAYBE put it on a CD and charge a few bucks for it....hmmmmm....I smell a biz opp here
#7
08-17-02, 06:50 PM
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hi
i was away for a couple of days on vacation with the kids.
i hope i get lucky and don't have to rip out the whole thing and reframe a box. i already bought the replacement window at a place that won't take it back. it is custom to my size.
the reason i didn't go with a new construction is i didn't want to have to touch the outside. i like the fact that the replacement just slides in.
we'll see come this fall and it is cooler and i have more time.
thanks again.
one question just out of curiosity: in wrapping the window exterior casing in aluminum, do you lose a little of the detail especially around the more intricate trim? If so, that is detail that i like and would not want to lose but i must say the maintenance free aluminum is attractive.
bob
i was away for a couple of days on vacation with the kids.
i hope i get lucky and don't have to rip out the whole thing and reframe a box. i already bought the replacement window at a place that won't take it back. it is custom to my size.
the reason i didn't go with a new construction is i didn't want to have to touch the outside. i like the fact that the replacement just slides in.
we'll see come this fall and it is cooler and i have more time.
thanks again.
one question just out of curiosity: in wrapping the window exterior casing in aluminum, do you lose a little of the detail especially around the more intricate trim? If so, that is detail that i like and would not want to lose but i must say the maintenance free aluminum is attractive.
bob
#8
08-18-02, 04:13 PM
You can lose some of the detail, depending on how fine it is.....on my brake, I can bend to within a 1/2" of another bend.....a little closer if the bend is not a 90....I can match a standard brick moulding with no problem.....2" wide stuff with a "step" down about 1/2way across it....
I also have another tool that is a cutter/shaper type tool called a Port-a-Slitter......it has two arbors with adjustable wheels that will either cut 24" wide ( by whatever length) metal into strips if the wheels are adjusted right together, or make a step in the metal, if adjusted slightly to wider apart. I can make some pretty fine detail stuff with that....You probably won't find that at a Rentall place, though....it more of a specialized pro tool. I use it to make re-inforcing ribs in wide facia metal on rake ends when doing soffit jobs....or if I have a BUNCH of same width strips of metal I need cut.....you can crank 'em out quick with that thing....once you get the wheels set to the right place. But I don't normally cart the thing with me on a window job.
I also have another tool that is a cutter/shaper type tool called a Port-a-Slitter......it has two arbors with adjustable wheels that will either cut 24" wide ( by whatever length) metal into strips if the wheels are adjusted right together, or make a step in the metal, if adjusted slightly to wider apart. I can make some pretty fine detail stuff with that....You probably won't find that at a Rentall place, though....it more of a specialized pro tool. I use it to make re-inforcing ribs in wide facia metal on rake ends when doing soffit jobs....or if I have a BUNCH of same width strips of metal I need cut.....you can crank 'em out quick with that thing....once you get the wheels set to the right place. But I don't normally cart the thing with me on a window job.
#9
09-25-02, 09:10 AM
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andy
i just wanted to follow up on the casement window replacement. it was a lot harder than i thought:
the inside stop was (as you thought) and integral part of the frame. I didn't want to cut it out and start with the rough opening because I didn't want to touch the outside trim nor mess with the interior plaster walls. So, what I did was, I used my circular saw and cut MANY small kerfs in the vertical jambs and the header piece. I then chiseled out the wood to remove the 1/4" that I needed. I ended up having to cut out the header jamb because I couldn't get it to fit. I replaced it with MDF in the same width and length screwing it to the rough framing.
The killer was that the wind was blowing into the room and I couldn't reverse the wind direction with a fan or something and evertime I cut a kerf, tons of wood dust would blow in the room and ended up covering every millimeter of the furniture, floor and walls. So, after 8 hours of messing with two windows, I had another 2 hours clean up time. That was the hardest part.
My only concern is: I didn't use a blind stop because it kind of made my job easier without it. But, when I blew in the foam insulation from the can, it expanded outside where the blind stop would have been. It looks terrible. I can tool it so it is a little less then flush and then I thought about putting a bead of caulk to finish it off. Is this okay or should I put in a blind stop.
thanks for your help so far. It was a lot easier doing this since you wrote to me and told me what to expect.
bob
i just wanted to follow up on the casement window replacement. it was a lot harder than i thought:
the inside stop was (as you thought) and integral part of the frame. I didn't want to cut it out and start with the rough opening because I didn't want to touch the outside trim nor mess with the interior plaster walls. So, what I did was, I used my circular saw and cut MANY small kerfs in the vertical jambs and the header piece. I then chiseled out the wood to remove the 1/4" that I needed. I ended up having to cut out the header jamb because I couldn't get it to fit. I replaced it with MDF in the same width and length screwing it to the rough framing.
The killer was that the wind was blowing into the room and I couldn't reverse the wind direction with a fan or something and evertime I cut a kerf, tons of wood dust would blow in the room and ended up covering every millimeter of the furniture, floor and walls. So, after 8 hours of messing with two windows, I had another 2 hours clean up time. That was the hardest part.
My only concern is: I didn't use a blind stop because it kind of made my job easier without it. But, when I blew in the foam insulation from the can, it expanded outside where the blind stop would have been. It looks terrible. I can tool it so it is a little less then flush and then I thought about putting a bead of caulk to finish it off. Is this okay or should I put in a blind stop.
thanks for your help so far. It was a lot easier doing this since you wrote to me and told me what to expect.
bob
#10
09-26-02, 02:43 PM
Bob:
you're welcome for the advise....sounds like you fought the good fight......the type of stop you encountered is the worse.....I hate to see them coming......but you won !
Don't remember if I mentioned to you in this saga that replacements were REALLY designed for wood double hungs and every other situation is a "figure it out as you go" type deal....
As to your last question, If the stop would make the job look better, then use it.....you're only talking two windows and that won't break you up...... I try to measure mine as tight as I can so just a small bead of caulk shows, but if it's large, and it were my house to look at, I'd do the stop moulding.
andy
you're welcome for the advise....sounds like you fought the good fight
......the type of stop you encountered is the worse.....I hate to see them coming......but you won !Don't remember if I mentioned to you in this saga that replacements were REALLY designed for wood double hungs and every other situation is a "figure it out as you go" type deal....
As to your last question, If the stop would make the job look better, then use it.....you're only talking two windows and that won't break you up...... I try to measure mine as tight as I can so just a small bead of caulk shows, but if it's large, and it were my house to look at, I'd do the stop moulding.
andy
