Replacement windows
#1
08-21-03, 05:36 PM
Replacement windows
I need help!! My husband wants to replace our old windows by himself. He is handy, but has never tackled a job like this. WE have an older home with 28 windows, five doors and a slding patio door. Most of the wondows are wooden double hung, except for five casement windows. WHat should we be looking for?? WE don't have the 15,000 plus that our five quotes were around. WE were hoping to at least do the smaller windows on our own.
Many of our measurements are 39 and 3/4. Would this be a standard 40 window or do we need the exact 39 3/4? We weren't planning on removing the frame. IS this a better method?
Where working with casement windows should we remove the frame?? I haven't been able to locate any information on measuring for these?
Also we have a very contemporary home. Built by one of those new age architects of the 60's. Anyway we would like to kepe the home looking contemporary, but the dirty alumunum has got to go. Should we be using vinyl or would wood be more in line with this style.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Lynn
Many of our measurements are 39 and 3/4. Would this be a standard 40 window or do we need the exact 39 3/4? We weren't planning on removing the frame. IS this a better method?
Where working with casement windows should we remove the frame?? I haven't been able to locate any information on measuring for these?
Also we have a very contemporary home. Built by one of those new age architects of the 60's. Anyway we would like to kepe the home looking contemporary, but the dirty alumunum has got to go. Should we be using vinyl or would wood be more in line with this style.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Lynn
#2
08-21-03, 06:15 PM
How To Measure for Replacement Windows
Wood Double Hung Version
Wood double hung windows are what vinyl replacement windows were “really” designed to replace, though they definitely can and are used in other situations.
The thickness of a replacement window frame is 3 ¼”, which is the combined thickness of 2 standard wood sashes. The replacement window goes in the space where the old wood sashes slide up and down.
In windows that date from the late 50’s forward, wood window makers used fairly standard sizes and construction methods. Standard sizes start around 18”, then go to 20”, then 24”, 28”, 32”,36”, 40” and occasionally you see a 44 or 48” on WIDTHS.
The sashes will generally slide up and down in an aluminum or plastic track.
Heights usually run 38”, 54”, 62”, 72”.
For example: a wood window called a 2/0 x 3/2 is a 24” wide by 38” tall window.
IMPORTANT: Window sizes are always given width first, height second. Don’t get that mixed up !
When you measure the width, you would get REAL close to 24” when you measure inside the area where the sash slides up and down. The height will measure about 37 ¾”or so, measured from the top of inside sash track to the TOP of the sloped part of the sill where the sash makes contact when it is lowered.
So for that window, I would order a replacement 23 ¾” wide and 37 ½” tall.
I order my windows “EXACT SIZE”…..if you don’t tell them that, they will automatically cut your measurements ¾” or more……..on the assumption it’s easier to fill in than tear out, I guess…..If you do what I tell you, there is just enough gap to slide the unit in and leave a caulk joint…..otherwise, you have some serious insulation stuffing to do, plus more trim problems later. GET EXACT SIZE.
On older double hungs, like the type that have rope pulleys and sash weights back in the wall, you measure the same way, but the sizes will vary quite a bit more…..there were far less standard……they sometimes vary ½” or more even between window to window that appear the same size.
Wood Double Hung Version
Wood double hung windows are what vinyl replacement windows were “really” designed to replace, though they definitely can and are used in other situations.
The thickness of a replacement window frame is 3 ¼”, which is the combined thickness of 2 standard wood sashes. The replacement window goes in the space where the old wood sashes slide up and down.
In windows that date from the late 50’s forward, wood window makers used fairly standard sizes and construction methods. Standard sizes start around 18”, then go to 20”, then 24”, 28”, 32”,36”, 40” and occasionally you see a 44 or 48” on WIDTHS.
The sashes will generally slide up and down in an aluminum or plastic track.
Heights usually run 38”, 54”, 62”, 72”.
For example: a wood window called a 2/0 x 3/2 is a 24” wide by 38” tall window.
IMPORTANT: Window sizes are always given width first, height second. Don’t get that mixed up !
When you measure the width, you would get REAL close to 24” when you measure inside the area where the sash slides up and down. The height will measure about 37 ¾”or so, measured from the top of inside sash track to the TOP of the sloped part of the sill where the sash makes contact when it is lowered.
So for that window, I would order a replacement 23 ¾” wide and 37 ½” tall.
I order my windows “EXACT SIZE”…..if you don’t tell them that, they will automatically cut your measurements ¾” or more……..on the assumption it’s easier to fill in than tear out, I guess…..If you do what I tell you, there is just enough gap to slide the unit in and leave a caulk joint…..otherwise, you have some serious insulation stuffing to do, plus more trim problems later. GET EXACT SIZE.
On older double hungs, like the type that have rope pulleys and sash weights back in the wall, you measure the same way, but the sizes will vary quite a bit more…..there were far less standard……they sometimes vary ½” or more even between window to window that appear the same size.
#3
08-21-03, 06:26 PM
How to install replacement vinyl windows
If you have standard double hung wood windows
First, I’m assuming you have read my “how to measure “ and have your windows ready to go in.
1. Remove the storm windows. The wood strip or ledge they were screwed to is the “storm stop”. Usually a strip of wood about ½ x ½” that extends back under the exterior moulding. In addition to giving a place to mount a storm window, it also serves as the stop for the outer most sash, the upper one.
2. You can either remove the storm stop with a wood chisel and take the sashes out to the outside…..which I do IF the inside is painted up and I don’t want to disturb it…..or you can remove the inside stop ( the one that holds the lower sash in place as it slides up and down). Don’t take off the top outside stop. Not necessary. If the inside stop is stained and will come off easy, go that route. Do take off the top inside stop…..necessary…but save them for reinstall.
3. If you have fairly “modern” windows with the aluminum tracks, just raise both sashes to the top, slip a bar or hammer claw in behind the track and fold it inward…..usually couple staples holding it, then grab both sashes together and jerk in the direction you took the stop out. The whole mess will come right out in your hands, be ready. People put deadbolts on their doors and 4 little staples hold the windows in…..ahahahahahahahaha
4. If you have the older rope and pulley type window, after taking one of the stops out, cut the sash cords on the first sash( boom/boom…those were the counterweights falling back in their cavity) and take out the sash. Then take out “parting stop”…..a 3/4x1/2” strip set in a dado ( groove) in the side jamb. Probably painted all to whizzz, but pry with a small chisel or screwdriver and it will pop out. Then you can cut the cords to the other sash and take it out.
5. On both, there is a parting stop at the top of the window…remove it too or the new window won’t go in place.
6. There is a type of wood double hung I call “pop and go” windows. They used a spring loaded aluminum strip on one side to put pressure against the sash as the method to hold it in place. All you do to get those out is grab the sash, jerk toward the spring loaded side ( usually the left side from inside looking out) and the sashes will come right out. Then take the aluminum tracks out ( screws set in pockets). The pocket on the spring side is deep…..you need to measure this type window slightly more in width. Usually a 28” wide window I make 28 ¼” so it will set in that pocket a little better….and you still have to stuff some insulation there.
Page 2
7. Now set your new window in the frame. Put it tight against either the inside or outside stop, whichever you didn’t take off. Level, make sure the new window is square, then use the four screws that came with it to install. If your windows are tall, I run another screw in the side jamb ABOVE the travel point of the sash shoe on the inside track to hold the jamb securely where you want it. Don’t bother using the jamb adjusters that come with them, most are junk.
8. Run bead around the outside on sides and top. Stuff some fiberglass insulation under the bottom where the new window is flat and the wood sill slopes away. Then you can slip the sill extension piece ( that flat pc with a little lip that came with the window) onto the bottom of the window to fill that gap, and install a couple of wood strips to replace the stop you cut off. Caulk and paint as needed….OR
9. I make aluminum trim to cover all the outside wood. If you can rent a sheet metal brake, buy some aluminum trim coil and do the same. This is a deal where pictures would be worth a zillion words…..maybe I’ll set up a website one day to show you how. This finish work is what separates the amateur work from the pro work.
If you have standard double hung wood windows
First, I’m assuming you have read my “how to measure “ and have your windows ready to go in.
1. Remove the storm windows. The wood strip or ledge they were screwed to is the “storm stop”. Usually a strip of wood about ½ x ½” that extends back under the exterior moulding. In addition to giving a place to mount a storm window, it also serves as the stop for the outer most sash, the upper one.
2. You can either remove the storm stop with a wood chisel and take the sashes out to the outside…..which I do IF the inside is painted up and I don’t want to disturb it…..or you can remove the inside stop ( the one that holds the lower sash in place as it slides up and down). Don’t take off the top outside stop. Not necessary. If the inside stop is stained and will come off easy, go that route. Do take off the top inside stop…..necessary…but save them for reinstall.
3. If you have fairly “modern” windows with the aluminum tracks, just raise both sashes to the top, slip a bar or hammer claw in behind the track and fold it inward…..usually couple staples holding it, then grab both sashes together and jerk in the direction you took the stop out. The whole mess will come right out in your hands, be ready. People put deadbolts on their doors and 4 little staples hold the windows in…..ahahahahahahahaha
4. If you have the older rope and pulley type window, after taking one of the stops out, cut the sash cords on the first sash( boom/boom…those were the counterweights falling back in their cavity) and take out the sash. Then take out “parting stop”…..a 3/4x1/2” strip set in a dado ( groove) in the side jamb. Probably painted all to whizzz, but pry with a small chisel or screwdriver and it will pop out. Then you can cut the cords to the other sash and take it out.
5. On both, there is a parting stop at the top of the window…remove it too or the new window won’t go in place.
6. There is a type of wood double hung I call “pop and go” windows. They used a spring loaded aluminum strip on one side to put pressure against the sash as the method to hold it in place. All you do to get those out is grab the sash, jerk toward the spring loaded side ( usually the left side from inside looking out) and the sashes will come right out. Then take the aluminum tracks out ( screws set in pockets). The pocket on the spring side is deep…..you need to measure this type window slightly more in width. Usually a 28” wide window I make 28 ¼” so it will set in that pocket a little better….and you still have to stuff some insulation there.
Page 2
7. Now set your new window in the frame. Put it tight against either the inside or outside stop, whichever you didn’t take off. Level, make sure the new window is square, then use the four screws that came with it to install. If your windows are tall, I run another screw in the side jamb ABOVE the travel point of the sash shoe on the inside track to hold the jamb securely where you want it. Don’t bother using the jamb adjusters that come with them, most are junk.
8. Run bead around the outside on sides and top. Stuff some fiberglass insulation under the bottom where the new window is flat and the wood sill slopes away. Then you can slip the sill extension piece ( that flat pc with a little lip that came with the window) onto the bottom of the window to fill that gap, and install a couple of wood strips to replace the stop you cut off. Caulk and paint as needed….OR
9. I make aluminum trim to cover all the outside wood. If you can rent a sheet metal brake, buy some aluminum trim coil and do the same. This is a deal where pictures would be worth a zillion words…..maybe I’ll set up a website one day to show you how. This finish work is what separates the amateur work from the pro work.
#4
08-21-03, 06:37 PM
OK, those 2 above are my standard "clip and pastes"
Now on your casements.....bit more difficult.....depends on the manufacturer. If you have Andersens, they usually ( depending on the age ) have a nail on stop moulding. You can simply pull the stop off......it's the "stepped" moulding that the screen sets in and also covers the crank gear.......it's just nailed on. Then remove the crank hardware and sash, along with the hinges the sash pivot on, and you have a nice clean opeing for your vinyl window and leave the old frame in place. You just measure that inside opening and order a window to fit.
BUT some manufacturers use a one pc moulded frame and step jamb. These involve a WHOLE lot of wood chisel work. You first have to decide WHICH step you're gonna chisel too.....I can't tell you what I'd do with actually seeing the window.....or a digital picture closeup if you can manage that......you have to chisel carefully to avoid damaging the whole frame, and quite frankly, they are a real pain.
Your double hungs SHOULD be a fairly standard size for that age house. Measure some according to what I posted above and I'll confirm what size you need to order.
IF you have some more specific questions, fire away.
Now on your casements.....bit more difficult.....depends on the manufacturer. If you have Andersens, they usually ( depending on the age ) have a nail on stop moulding. You can simply pull the stop off......it's the "stepped" moulding that the screen sets in and also covers the crank gear.......it's just nailed on. Then remove the crank hardware and sash, along with the hinges the sash pivot on, and you have a nice clean opeing for your vinyl window and leave the old frame in place. You just measure that inside opening and order a window to fit.
BUT some manufacturers use a one pc moulded frame and step jamb. These involve a WHOLE lot of wood chisel work. You first have to decide WHICH step you're gonna chisel too.....I can't tell you what I'd do with actually seeing the window.....or a digital picture closeup if you can manage that......you have to chisel carefully to avoid damaging the whole frame, and quite frankly, they are a real pain.
Your double hungs SHOULD be a fairly standard size for that age house. Measure some according to what I posted above and I'll confirm what size you need to order.
IF you have some more specific questions, fire away.
#5
08-20-08, 06:58 AM
digging up a golden moldy
Sorry to dig up an ancient thread but this sounds like my current issue
You said:
"Now on your casements.....bit more difficult.....depends on the manufacturer. If you have Andersens, they usually ( depending on the age ) have a nail on stop moulding. You can simply pull the stop off......it's the "stepped" moulding that the screen sets in and also covers the crank gear.......it's just nailed on. Then remove the crank hardware and sash, along with the hinges the sash pivot on, and you have a nice clean opeing for your vinyl window and leave the old frame in place. You just measure that inside opening and order a window to fit.
BUT some manufacturers use a one pc moulded frame and step jamb. These involve a WHOLE lot of wood chisel work. You first have to decide WHICH step you're gonna chisel too.....I can't tell you what I'd do with actually seeing the window.....or a digital picture closeup if you can manage that......you have to chisel carefully to avoid damaging the whole frame, and quite frankly, they are a real pain."
I am looking to replace some casements, that I believe to be Anderson windows from the late 70's. Would these feature the one piece molded frame and step jamb? How can I tell from looking at the,?
You said:
"Now on your casements.....bit more difficult.....depends on the manufacturer. If you have Andersens, they usually ( depending on the age ) have a nail on stop moulding. You can simply pull the stop off......it's the "stepped" moulding that the screen sets in and also covers the crank gear.......it's just nailed on. Then remove the crank hardware and sash, along with the hinges the sash pivot on, and you have a nice clean opeing for your vinyl window and leave the old frame in place. You just measure that inside opening and order a window to fit.
BUT some manufacturers use a one pc moulded frame and step jamb. These involve a WHOLE lot of wood chisel work. You first have to decide WHICH step you're gonna chisel too.....I can't tell you what I'd do with actually seeing the window.....or a digital picture closeup if you can manage that......you have to chisel carefully to avoid damaging the whole frame, and quite frankly, they are a real pain."
I am looking to replace some casements, that I believe to be Anderson windows from the late 70's. Would these feature the one piece molded frame and step jamb? How can I tell from looking at the,?
#6
08-20-08, 07:20 AM
Super Moderator
If they are Andersens, there should be AW etching in one of the corners. This will have date codes. You can call Andersen with exact visible glass measurement, exterior material, and the codes from the corners.
You can look here for parts and construction...
http://www.andersenwindows.com/servl.../1116852780873
You can look here for parts and construction...
http://www.andersenwindows.com/servl.../1116852780873
#7
08-20-08, 07:28 AM
great
Thanks, I will check that out tonight, maybe it will help get me some info as to what would be involved with using vinyl double hung replacements vs new construction
#8
08-20-08, 07:46 AM
Super Moderator
One thing to consider when replacing casements with DH. IF located in bedrooms (and some other areas as well, I believe), they need to meet egress requirements.
That can sometimes be hard to do, since a casement opens almost completely, and a DH only opens less than 1/2 of the total inner frame area.
That can sometimes be hard to do, since a casement opens almost completely, and a DH only opens less than 1/2 of the total inner frame area.
#10
08-20-08, 03:44 PM
well
Looks like I was wrong, I dont see any Anderson stamp. Here are some pics:
http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...97079/windows/
Can anyone tell if these will require new construction double hung windows as replacements?
http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...97079/windows/
Can anyone tell if these will require new construction double hung windows as replacements?
#12
08-22-08, 07:58 AM
Super Moderator
Are those hinged on the side = casements? Or from the top=awning? And I can't see any locking latches?
Either way, that twin is a mulled unit I believe. You might be able to put a replacement DH in, but it wouldn't be a very clean install. And the problem with putting in a new construction might be finding a size that will work in the rough opening. Most hinged window sizes don't play well with standard DH sizes. Might involve changing the opening size or finding a manufacturer who can custom size. Even then you may have to mess with siding and exterior trim.
I'm sure JustBill or one of the others may have better suggestions.
Either way, that twin is a mulled unit I believe. You might be able to put a replacement DH in, but it wouldn't be a very clean install. And the problem with putting in a new construction might be finding a size that will work in the rough opening. Most hinged window sizes don't play well with standard DH sizes. Might involve changing the opening size or finding a manufacturer who can custom size. Even then you may have to mess with siding and exterior trim.
I'm sure JustBill or one of the others may have better suggestions.
#14
08-22-08, 08:55 AM
Super Moderator
I meant clean as in simple. A regular replacement window (insert style), you keep the existing frame, and just remove the sashes, install the new window, maybe an hours work. A properly sized new const window is a bit more work, as you have to pull the old frame and trim, maybe loosen siding, but still doable. Some interior and exterior trim work still required.
With that twin window, to install a replacement insert, you would probably have to cut the center part of the frame, which may or may not be a structural part of the window frame. Then you might have to add some wood on the sides to compensate for the damage after cutting, and for the insert to seal against. Which then will probably require add'l trim work to make it look nice. And I already stated why a new const might be an issue
As you can see, quite a few if's and maybe's. Hard to make a good assessment over the internet. Anything can be done, I mean it's only wood, siding, and plaster, just depends on how much time, money, and skill you can put towards it.
Lets see what some others say.
With that twin window, to install a replacement insert, you would probably have to cut the center part of the frame, which may or may not be a structural part of the window frame. Then you might have to add some wood on the sides to compensate for the damage after cutting, and for the insert to seal against. Which then will probably require add'l trim work to make it look nice. And I already stated why a new const might be an issue
As you can see, quite a few if's and maybe's. Hard to make a good assessment over the internet. Anything can be done, I mean it's only wood, siding, and plaster, just depends on how much time, money, and skill you can put towards it.
Lets see what some others say.
#16
08-22-08, 08:54 PM
Group Moderator
Everything gunguy mentioned is right on.
You can cut out the horizontal mullion, and if you're careful, there won't be much damage to the frame or the interior finish. But you will need to make an interior stop for all four sides, which would mean matching the stain, etc.
As far as the outside is concerned, those windows generally have something like a step sill, where the sash sweeps in and closes against the upper step, which is practically flat. What I commonly do on such a window (when the exterior is going to all be clad with aluminum trim coil) is I make a 1/2" filler to go on top of the lower sill that gives it slightly more angle (changing it from about 7 degrees of slope to 10 degrees). Then I reciprocate the upper step of the step sill off (eliminating it) at an angle, giving the entire width of the sill more slope and making it's appearance similar to your usual double hung sill. It can then be clad like a standard sloped sill.
Your window will need to have additional framing added onto the exterior to provide a new replacement window with an exterior blind stop. And then all that would need to be clad with aluminum trim coil as well.
An alternative to all the aluminum trim coil work, would be to remove and replace the sill and exterior trim with finish quality lumber or a PVC trim such as Azek, which would then need to be caulked, puttied and painted.
So, if that's the look you're going for, that's how it would be done. But the aluminum trim coil exterior trim/ vinyl replacement window/ interior stops that don't completely match the rest of your woodwork... won't fly for some customers. In which case, you'd be better off looking into a custom sized new construction window which would need new interior and exterior trim, but would probably look a whole lot better. (cleaner). If you do go with a replacement window that needs new interior stops, you could make the inside look cleaner by getting rid of the old casing, and covering up the face of your new interior stops with some new casing, leaving just a 3/16" reveal showing. It wouldn't look cobbled together that way.
You can cut out the horizontal mullion, and if you're careful, there won't be much damage to the frame or the interior finish. But you will need to make an interior stop for all four sides, which would mean matching the stain, etc.
As far as the outside is concerned, those windows generally have something like a step sill, where the sash sweeps in and closes against the upper step, which is practically flat. What I commonly do on such a window (when the exterior is going to all be clad with aluminum trim coil) is I make a 1/2" filler to go on top of the lower sill that gives it slightly more angle (changing it from about 7 degrees of slope to 10 degrees). Then I reciprocate the upper step of the step sill off (eliminating it) at an angle, giving the entire width of the sill more slope and making it's appearance similar to your usual double hung sill. It can then be clad like a standard sloped sill.
Your window will need to have additional framing added onto the exterior to provide a new replacement window with an exterior blind stop. And then all that would need to be clad with aluminum trim coil as well.
An alternative to all the aluminum trim coil work, would be to remove and replace the sill and exterior trim with finish quality lumber or a PVC trim such as Azek, which would then need to be caulked, puttied and painted.
So, if that's the look you're going for, that's how it would be done. But the aluminum trim coil exterior trim/ vinyl replacement window/ interior stops that don't completely match the rest of your woodwork... won't fly for some customers. In which case, you'd be better off looking into a custom sized new construction window which would need new interior and exterior trim, but would probably look a whole lot better. (cleaner). If you do go with a replacement window that needs new interior stops, you could make the inside look cleaner by getting rid of the old casing, and covering up the face of your new interior stops with some new casing, leaving just a 3/16" reveal showing. It wouldn't look cobbled together that way.
