window replacement in brick house
#1
01-02-06, 05:12 PM
window replacement in brick house
Hi guys,
Getting ready to tackle some window replacement...I have a 1947 brick house with windows in bad shape...I have all sorts from original casements in some areas, to butcher job framing with aluminum, and even a few vinyl windows up front...
I have not replaced windows before, but re-modeled the entire bathroom from subfloor up to crown molding, including plumbing the last year. I have had two contractors out to date and have been less than impressed. I don't feel that I will get the quality installation unless I do it..ya know? (despite having never done it before)
(I would happily attach some pics of the first window that needs to go if I was allowed)
I want to replace the existing tile sills with more traditional wooden window casings on the interior.
I guess I am looking for helpful info et al... before I jump into this project!
Thanks,
Eli
Getting ready to tackle some window replacement...I have a 1947 brick house with windows in bad shape...I have all sorts from original casements in some areas, to butcher job framing with aluminum, and even a few vinyl windows up front...
I have not replaced windows before, but re-modeled the entire bathroom from subfloor up to crown molding, including plumbing the last year. I have had two contractors out to date and have been less than impressed. I don't feel that I will get the quality installation unless I do it..ya know? (despite having never done it before)
(I would happily attach some pics of the first window that needs to go if I was allowed)
I want to replace the existing tile sills with more traditional wooden window casings on the interior.
I guess I am looking for helpful info et al... before I jump into this project!
Thanks,
Eli
#2
01-04-06, 03:59 AM
window replacement in brick house
Ahhh, 1947, a good vintage. Hopefully the butchering didn't mess up your original rough openings. Are the frames and sills still in good shape? If so, you can go with vinyl clad replacements from HD or Lowe's or others. The sill is my worry. 58 years of rain has made me rot, so I guess your sills are in the same shape. In that case, you may be in for a R&R (No, not rest and relaxation - Remove and Replace) Start with one of the butcher jobs and remove the sashes and interior trim. You should be able to get a reciprocating saw in the gap and cut the nails used to fasten the window to the subframing. Go outside and cut through all the caulking with a razor knife and remove the window, carefully. Pull it out as level as you can, as you don't want to disturb the sill bricks under your wooden sill. You can, now install a new construction window in the slot, screwing it to the subframing, caulking and trimming.
Repost if you need clarification or if you don't think this will work in your situation. Good luck.
Repost if you need clarification or if you don't think this will work in your situation. Good luck.
#3
01-04-06, 04:37 AM
ejs0614,
You can put photos on a site like photobucket or angelfire and simply post the URL.
Retrofitting vinyls into the existing frames USUALLY isn't that difficult, as long as the frames are fairly flush on the exterior and have a pretty large surface to seal the new windows to. Chandler mentioned HD and Lowes -- check around with a few local glass shops and see what brands they have to offer as well. Compare the ratings listed on the NFRC stickers as well as the warranty.
The NFRC sticker is similar to the MPG sticker you'll find on a car window. It rates U - factor, SHGC, and visible light transmittance. The first 2 should be in the range of .30 to .35 (the lower the better) and the transmittance rating should be above .55 (the higher the better, generally)
You can put photos on a site like photobucket or angelfire and simply post the URL.
Retrofitting vinyls into the existing frames USUALLY isn't that difficult, as long as the frames are fairly flush on the exterior and have a pretty large surface to seal the new windows to. Chandler mentioned HD and Lowes -- check around with a few local glass shops and see what brands they have to offer as well. Compare the ratings listed on the NFRC stickers as well as the warranty.
The NFRC sticker is similar to the MPG sticker you'll find on a car window. It rates U - factor, SHGC, and visible light transmittance. The first 2 should be in the range of .30 to .35 (the lower the better) and the transmittance rating should be above .55 (the higher the better, generally)
#5
01-04-06, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by chandler
Ahhh, 1947, a good vintage. Hopefully the butchering didn't mess up your original rough openings. Are the frames and sills still in good shape? If so, you can go with vinyl clad replacements from HD or Lowe's or others. The sill is my worry. 58 years of rain has made me rot, so I guess your sills are in the same shape. In that case, you may be in for a R&R (No, not rest and relaxation - Remove and Replace) Start with one of the butcher jobs and remove the sashes and interior trim. You should be able to get a reciprocating saw in the gap and cut the nails used to fasten the window to the subframing. Go outside and cut through all the caulking with a razor knife and remove the window, carefully. Pull it out as level as you can, as you don't want to disturb the sill bricks under your wooden sill. You can, now install a new construction window in the slot, screwing it to the subframing, caulking and trimming.
Repost if you need clarification or if you don't think this will work in your situation. Good luck.
Repost if you need clarification or if you don't think this will work in your situation. Good luck.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...1022006074.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...1022006070.jpg
I am a bit concerned about the state of things once I remove that window...it has clearly leaked enough in the past to cause a pretty good crack in the plaster wall from that inside window.
On the exterior check out the "pro" caulk job they did huh?
If I follow you guys, once I remove this butcher job, I will need to rebuild a frame? Thanks so much and appreciate all the input!
Eli
#6
01-04-06, 07:43 PM
You can only tell by removing the window. I believe you may be able to install a new construction window, rather than a replacement, since you are not satisfied with the sill plates. Of course the new construction window can't have flanges on it. But, rebuilding the frame is a good way to go, as long as you can find a replacement to fit the newly constructed opening. I believe I would extend the sill a little, at least to cover the mortar line of the brick.
What did the guy have, stock in a caulking company? Gee!
What did the guy have, stock in a caulking company? Gee!
#7
01-04-06, 08:23 PM
Group Moderator
Having installed windows almost exclusively for many years now, let me assure you that replacing windows in brick homes is no easy job. And you are right about the quality of many contractors... often, it leaves much to be desired.
Brick homes present several problems. First and foremost is installing the window in such a way so that it does not leak. This is pretty easy on homes that are not brick, because if you are ripping out the entire window, you can usually take off siding, or cut the siding away so as to integrate the new window and its nailing fin into the building paper, use peel and stick membranes, add building paper, if needed, add drip caps, if needed, etc. With a brick home, you can't do ANY of those things because you can't remove the brick. You might be able to attempt to put peel and stick around the nailing fin, if you have room to do it, but it rarely works out well.
A related problem with brick homes is the brick sill, which your 2x4 picture clearly shows. The brick sill usually barely extends behind the old window sill, and new windows rarely are wide enough to cover the gap that is exposed when you remove the old window. Adding to the problem, the rough opening is usually level or a little lower than the highest point of the brick sill. One solution to this is to first add framing to the rough opening, then bend a flashing out onto the brick sill so as to make that area less prone to leakage.
Other problems have to do with trimming the exterior once the window is installed. As your 2x4 illustration shows, carpenters are often unsuccessful in making the window trim look nice. Covering window trim with aluminum trim coil often helps. Keeping the trim symetrical also helps. (1 1/2" on each side, or use a standard 2" brickmould) Many people expect to have the traditional appearance of trim- a sill and brickmould- and this is often difficult to do, because unlike windows that "come with" sills, when you install a window that has a nailing fin, any sill you put on is just for show, and it's difficult to attach it to anything, since it's beyond the rough opening.
Another problem has to do with cleaning off all the old caulking that is left behind from the old window. Brick usually holds caulk tenaciously, and removing it can be a real bugger. The solution is often to try to cover up the old caulk lines with your trim, by using wider trim than there was before.
Now, regarding installing windows into the openings you have pictured.
I've seen a lot of people installing replacement windows right into brick openings, making sure the window covers up the gap in the brick sill and the old caulk lines. This is the cleanest looking installation, but it also presents problems. Depending on how far out the window is installed you may not have much to screw the window to if you move it out beyond the rough opening. When replacement windows are installed in this manner, the only thing that flashes the window- and keeps it from leaking- is caulk. The window is also being caulked to the brick, which is not waterproof, nor air-proof. Air (and mice) can freely move through the air space behind your brick fascade, so by caulking the window to the brick (the part you can see), you really aren't sealing the window completely. But, as I mentioned, this is probably the cleanest way to install the windows (since no exterior trim would be needed) and is probably similar to the way your aluminum windows are installed, with the exception of the 2x4 on bottom.
Others might get a custom sized new construction window (that would just fit into the brick opening... say 1/4" smaller in height and width) with a nailing fin, and fold the nailing fin back out of the way (or tape it down) and not use it to attach the window. The advantage of an aluminum clad wood window in this case over a vinyl window would be clear- a vinyl window is flexible and would need good support in the form of shims... a window that has an aluminum exterior/ wood jamb would be more rigid, would be wider than a vinyl window, and thus easier to secure into the rough opening. The problems with this type of installation would be similar to the paragraph above.
The 2 paragraphs above would only be true if you were working with a cement rough opening where the perimeter of the exterior brick fascade lines up with the perimeter of the cement rough opening. In my experience, in a wood framed home the trimmer studs usually protrude into the brick opening by an average of 1" on each side, making the rough opening about 2" narrower than the brick opening. So in a wood framed home, it would not be possible to install a replacement window that is the full width of the bricks without either 1) installing the window entirely inside the brick opening (bad idea) or 2) removing the trimmers and king studs, tearing open the wall, replacing the header so that you can move the trimmers 1 1/2" left and right of their current positions. If the original windows had no exterior trim (such as an aluminum window w/ nailing fin, then the wood framing might be RECESSED behind the brick and the rough opening would actually be a little wider than the brick opening. You really don't know unless you do a little investigating... tearing apart and measuring.
Now, if you get a custom sized window WITH a nailing fin (either wood or vinyl) that is 3" smaller than your brick opening in height and width, you would be able to attach the window to the framing (adding the 2x and flashing on bottom, and possibly adding a framing little to the sides, if needed) Before installing the window, you would attempt to apply some strips of flashing to the sheathing, working the flashing into the small space behind the brick, removing cement slag that will be in the way. You would then caulk the perimeter of the opening and install the window, using its nailing fin. Then, in the 1 1/2" space around the window, attempt to tape the nailing fin to the flashings you just installed, which currently the recommended way to install new construction windows. The problem is, your brick is making it real hard to do this job the way it's recommended. Finally, you'd need to cover the nailing fin as I mentioned earlier, at the onset. Cladding the exterior trim with aluminum trim coil using a metal break would be the best way to make the entire thing relatively maintenance free and clean looking. (some companies like Pella make a heavy gauge cladding that snaps into the front of their windows, which is sold seperately and is also an option when thinking of covering the nailing fins) Selecting the right kind of caulking and using it sparingly, then exercising care to apply it neatly is also a challenge- caulking a brick opening is often difficult due to the irregular mortar joints. It takes a lot of practice to get it right, and even then it doesn't always look as good as you wish it did. This is the method I would use and is the method I would suggest for anyone who asks.
As far as trimming the interior, that's the easy part. If you can imagine it, it can be done. But figuring out the method of installation- (the plane the window will be mounted in) the type of window and thickness (vinyl or wood) so as to know how wide your extension jambs will be... or whether you want to get a window that is the correct wall thickness... are all key steps.
I hesitate to even mention my opinions on this subject because I probably sound like a raving lunatic. In reality, I'm very quality conscious and try to do a good job for all my customers and I would never use an installation practice where I would knowingly- or even possibly- be causing them problems down the road. So i guess maybe my opinions and installation practices are on the cautious side. I would really like to see how installers that are "certified" by completing window installation certification would address this topic. I am not "certified" as of yet since it is not required or demanded in my area, but I would very much like to be.
Brick homes present several problems. First and foremost is installing the window in such a way so that it does not leak. This is pretty easy on homes that are not brick, because if you are ripping out the entire window, you can usually take off siding, or cut the siding away so as to integrate the new window and its nailing fin into the building paper, use peel and stick membranes, add building paper, if needed, add drip caps, if needed, etc. With a brick home, you can't do ANY of those things because you can't remove the brick. You might be able to attempt to put peel and stick around the nailing fin, if you have room to do it, but it rarely works out well.
A related problem with brick homes is the brick sill, which your 2x4 picture clearly shows. The brick sill usually barely extends behind the old window sill, and new windows rarely are wide enough to cover the gap that is exposed when you remove the old window. Adding to the problem, the rough opening is usually level or a little lower than the highest point of the brick sill. One solution to this is to first add framing to the rough opening, then bend a flashing out onto the brick sill so as to make that area less prone to leakage.
Other problems have to do with trimming the exterior once the window is installed. As your 2x4 illustration shows, carpenters are often unsuccessful in making the window trim look nice. Covering window trim with aluminum trim coil often helps. Keeping the trim symetrical also helps. (1 1/2" on each side, or use a standard 2" brickmould) Many people expect to have the traditional appearance of trim- a sill and brickmould- and this is often difficult to do, because unlike windows that "come with" sills, when you install a window that has a nailing fin, any sill you put on is just for show, and it's difficult to attach it to anything, since it's beyond the rough opening.
Another problem has to do with cleaning off all the old caulking that is left behind from the old window. Brick usually holds caulk tenaciously, and removing it can be a real bugger. The solution is often to try to cover up the old caulk lines with your trim, by using wider trim than there was before.
Now, regarding installing windows into the openings you have pictured.
I've seen a lot of people installing replacement windows right into brick openings, making sure the window covers up the gap in the brick sill and the old caulk lines. This is the cleanest looking installation, but it also presents problems. Depending on how far out the window is installed you may not have much to screw the window to if you move it out beyond the rough opening. When replacement windows are installed in this manner, the only thing that flashes the window- and keeps it from leaking- is caulk. The window is also being caulked to the brick, which is not waterproof, nor air-proof. Air (and mice) can freely move through the air space behind your brick fascade, so by caulking the window to the brick (the part you can see), you really aren't sealing the window completely. But, as I mentioned, this is probably the cleanest way to install the windows (since no exterior trim would be needed) and is probably similar to the way your aluminum windows are installed, with the exception of the 2x4 on bottom.
Others might get a custom sized new construction window (that would just fit into the brick opening... say 1/4" smaller in height and width) with a nailing fin, and fold the nailing fin back out of the way (or tape it down) and not use it to attach the window. The advantage of an aluminum clad wood window in this case over a vinyl window would be clear- a vinyl window is flexible and would need good support in the form of shims... a window that has an aluminum exterior/ wood jamb would be more rigid, would be wider than a vinyl window, and thus easier to secure into the rough opening. The problems with this type of installation would be similar to the paragraph above.
The 2 paragraphs above would only be true if you were working with a cement rough opening where the perimeter of the exterior brick fascade lines up with the perimeter of the cement rough opening. In my experience, in a wood framed home the trimmer studs usually protrude into the brick opening by an average of 1" on each side, making the rough opening about 2" narrower than the brick opening. So in a wood framed home, it would not be possible to install a replacement window that is the full width of the bricks without either 1) installing the window entirely inside the brick opening (bad idea) or 2) removing the trimmers and king studs, tearing open the wall, replacing the header so that you can move the trimmers 1 1/2" left and right of their current positions. If the original windows had no exterior trim (such as an aluminum window w/ nailing fin, then the wood framing might be RECESSED behind the brick and the rough opening would actually be a little wider than the brick opening. You really don't know unless you do a little investigating... tearing apart and measuring.
Now, if you get a custom sized window WITH a nailing fin (either wood or vinyl) that is 3" smaller than your brick opening in height and width, you would be able to attach the window to the framing (adding the 2x and flashing on bottom, and possibly adding a framing little to the sides, if needed) Before installing the window, you would attempt to apply some strips of flashing to the sheathing, working the flashing into the small space behind the brick, removing cement slag that will be in the way. You would then caulk the perimeter of the opening and install the window, using its nailing fin. Then, in the 1 1/2" space around the window, attempt to tape the nailing fin to the flashings you just installed, which currently the recommended way to install new construction windows. The problem is, your brick is making it real hard to do this job the way it's recommended. Finally, you'd need to cover the nailing fin as I mentioned earlier, at the onset. Cladding the exterior trim with aluminum trim coil using a metal break would be the best way to make the entire thing relatively maintenance free and clean looking. (some companies like Pella make a heavy gauge cladding that snaps into the front of their windows, which is sold seperately and is also an option when thinking of covering the nailing fins) Selecting the right kind of caulking and using it sparingly, then exercising care to apply it neatly is also a challenge- caulking a brick opening is often difficult due to the irregular mortar joints. It takes a lot of practice to get it right, and even then it doesn't always look as good as you wish it did. This is the method I would use and is the method I would suggest for anyone who asks.
As far as trimming the interior, that's the easy part. If you can imagine it, it can be done. But figuring out the method of installation- (the plane the window will be mounted in) the type of window and thickness (vinyl or wood) so as to know how wide your extension jambs will be... or whether you want to get a window that is the correct wall thickness... are all key steps.
I hesitate to even mention my opinions on this subject because I probably sound like a raving lunatic. In reality, I'm very quality conscious and try to do a good job for all my customers and I would never use an installation practice where I would knowingly- or even possibly- be causing them problems down the road. So i guess maybe my opinions and installation practices are on the cautious side. I would really like to see how installers that are "certified" by completing window installation certification would address this topic. I am not "certified" as of yet since it is not required or demanded in my area, but I would very much like to be.
Last edited by XSleeper; 01-04-06 at 08:45 PM.
