New windows
#1
11-12-07, 04:49 PM
New windows
Hi i am having new windows put in this week.I was wondering the diff between alum and vinyl I am having the contractor take out the alum cuz they iced up about 4 inches last winter and then when thawed messed up my sills. I am trying something different cuz they where also real drafty. He has them installed directly to the lentil and the brick with just enough room for caulk.Could this be the problem? plus the insulation is not in the sides by the windows. What you think?
#2
11-12-07, 05:47 PM
Group Moderator
I think he's probably not done yet. I would "assume" that he is going to insulate around them and then caulk the exterior. I'd advise that you just watch and see how he does it. Maybe you could ask him to help you understand the whole process. (make the installer feel like he is helping you by teaching you something, rather than challenging him with a bunch of questions.)
As far as the difference between vinyl and aluminum, solid vinyl has roughly the same R-value as solid wood, which is somewhere around R-1.3 per inch. If referring to these figures as U-values, an average vinyl window frame might be somewhere around 0.56, while an aluminum frame might be around 0.87. With U-values, the closer the number is to 0, the better. So vinyl is better than aluminum, since aluminum readily conducts heat out of the home.
See: http://www.doityourself.com/stry/uvalue
I wish I had a dollar for every time a customer asked me, "are you going to insulate around those?"
As far as the difference between vinyl and aluminum, solid vinyl has roughly the same R-value as solid wood, which is somewhere around R-1.3 per inch. If referring to these figures as U-values, an average vinyl window frame might be somewhere around 0.56, while an aluminum frame might be around 0.87. With U-values, the closer the number is to 0, the better. So vinyl is better than aluminum, since aluminum readily conducts heat out of the home.
See: http://www.doityourself.com/stry/uvalue
I wish I had a dollar for every time a customer asked me, "are you going to insulate around those?"
#3
11-13-07, 05:54 AM
Insulate
Hi thanks for the reply,Well he has come back for the other windows already and put a very thin and i mean thin piece of insulation in and recaulked the others. The problem I thought and I am no window man is that the windows are not with any framing so to insulate around them is not possible.Do you have to have framing around them so the heat and cold are not transfered directly to the window?These have no wood framing between the brick and the window. Thanks
#4
11-13-07, 03:48 PM
Group Moderator
Glad to help! Here's a couple things to think about.
First, whatever I tell you is only my opinion. Granted, I've been replacing windows for almost 20 years now, but by no means has my advice come down from Mt. Sinai on stone tablets. If there's anything I've learned, it's that there is always more than one way to do things.
You asked: Do you "have" to have framing around them?
The answer is no.
By "framing", I am assuming that you are either talking about exterior trim, or perhaps the old wooden jamb that was part of your old window.
What matters is that there be little to no air movement past the new window. You don't want air blowing past the new window. This is accomplished by a couple things:
1st, the bead of caulking that he will run around the exterior of the window. The picture I have in my head is that there is maybe a 1/8 to 1/4" gap around the brick that he has not yet sealed with caulking. That is fine. If there's a 1" gap, then he will probably have to install some sort of trim before he is finished. Again, there's no reason to get worked up about anything until they are close to being finished.
2nd, the insulation that he puts between the window and the rough opening.
3rd, ideally, he would also foam or insulate the perimeter of the brick opening prior to installing the window, because there is a cavity behind most brick facades that could allow air to bypass the exterior caulking. If the installer would foam the perimeter of the entire window with a closed cell foam sealant, this would not be a major issue.
The vast majority of vinyl windows are 3 1/4" wide. That is the way it is. Your old aluminum windows probably had a wood jamb stapled to the aluminum frame, and completely covered the entire wall thickness of perhaps 6", seemingly as one unit- when actually they are not.
With vinyl windows, it is not done the same exact way- they don't have a jamb that comes preattached to the window- so you cannot compare they way your old windows were to the way these new windows will be. The vinyl window takes up "one half" of the wall thickness, and the interior trim (or drywall return) will take up the "other half" of the wall thickness. He probably hasn't finished the inside yet, has he?
Regarding the "little bit" of insulation he used, I finished an install on Monday that sounds almost identical to this one. I stuffed a little bit of fiberglass insulation around the window mainly to prevent the expanding foam (which I used next) from squishing out onto the bricks when I foamed the window, because I do all the exterior caulking LAST. Regardless, fiberglass insulation should not be overpacked or it loses it's efficiency. You do not cram it in tightly, and you don't use a 3" wide strip to cram into a 1/4" space. you have to use thin strips and you have to lightly push it into the gaps around the window. That's just the way it is, because in order for fiberglass to insulate, it has to be fluffy so as to slow the movement of air. Personally, I rarely use fiberglass because I'm not content to "slow air down", I'd rather use spray foam that is specifically designed for use around windows and doors in order to "stop" air movement completely.
Hopefully this answers some of the questions you have, and if you think of any more, please don't hesitate to ask.
I'd also like to caution you, that if anything I've said does not agree with what your installer is doing, that you should keep in mind the old saying, "there's more than one way to skin a cat." Who does that, anyway??? But you know what I mean. He has probably done this before and likely has had good results. If you have a problem with the way he is doing it, you would probably be wise to talk to his company or his supervisor or what have you. Telling him that "this guy on the internet said..." probably won't get you very far.
Good luck!
First, whatever I tell you is only my opinion. Granted, I've been replacing windows for almost 20 years now, but by no means has my advice come down from Mt. Sinai on stone tablets. If there's anything I've learned, it's that there is always more than one way to do things.
You asked: Do you "have" to have framing around them?
The answer is no.
By "framing", I am assuming that you are either talking about exterior trim, or perhaps the old wooden jamb that was part of your old window.
What matters is that there be little to no air movement past the new window. You don't want air blowing past the new window. This is accomplished by a couple things:
1st, the bead of caulking that he will run around the exterior of the window. The picture I have in my head is that there is maybe a 1/8 to 1/4" gap around the brick that he has not yet sealed with caulking. That is fine. If there's a 1" gap, then he will probably have to install some sort of trim before he is finished. Again, there's no reason to get worked up about anything until they are close to being finished.
2nd, the insulation that he puts between the window and the rough opening.
3rd, ideally, he would also foam or insulate the perimeter of the brick opening prior to installing the window, because there is a cavity behind most brick facades that could allow air to bypass the exterior caulking. If the installer would foam the perimeter of the entire window with a closed cell foam sealant, this would not be a major issue.
The vast majority of vinyl windows are 3 1/4" wide. That is the way it is. Your old aluminum windows probably had a wood jamb stapled to the aluminum frame, and completely covered the entire wall thickness of perhaps 6", seemingly as one unit- when actually they are not.
With vinyl windows, it is not done the same exact way- they don't have a jamb that comes preattached to the window- so you cannot compare they way your old windows were to the way these new windows will be. The vinyl window takes up "one half" of the wall thickness, and the interior trim (or drywall return) will take up the "other half" of the wall thickness. He probably hasn't finished the inside yet, has he?
Regarding the "little bit" of insulation he used, I finished an install on Monday that sounds almost identical to this one. I stuffed a little bit of fiberglass insulation around the window mainly to prevent the expanding foam (which I used next) from squishing out onto the bricks when I foamed the window, because I do all the exterior caulking LAST. Regardless, fiberglass insulation should not be overpacked or it loses it's efficiency. You do not cram it in tightly, and you don't use a 3" wide strip to cram into a 1/4" space. you have to use thin strips and you have to lightly push it into the gaps around the window. That's just the way it is, because in order for fiberglass to insulate, it has to be fluffy so as to slow the movement of air. Personally, I rarely use fiberglass because I'm not content to "slow air down", I'd rather use spray foam that is specifically designed for use around windows and doors in order to "stop" air movement completely.
Hopefully this answers some of the questions you have, and if you think of any more, please don't hesitate to ask.
I'd also like to caution you, that if anything I've said does not agree with what your installer is doing, that you should keep in mind the old saying, "there's more than one way to skin a cat." Who does that, anyway??? But you know what I mean. He has probably done this before and likely has had good results. If you have a problem with the way he is doing it, you would probably be wise to talk to his company or his supervisor or what have you. Telling him that "this guy on the internet said..." probably won't get you very far.
Good luck!
#5
11-14-07, 06:14 AM
Window Insulation
Hey thanks again and I don't think that me telling him about my DIY advice would get me very far here either but I do appreciate it greatly. Here is the deal. I bought this condo almost 2 years ago now and this is the issue. There is a draft on some windows like the window is open slightly. It blows out a match. The other is that they ice up terribly. I have lived in dumps and have had better. He put in alum first and everyone with bad ones is replacing with vinyl. I thought good idea,maybe not. No foam was used at all. There is a sill of 16 inches so the window is deep and attached evenly with the outside of building.There is a sill but small on the outside the window is almost flush. Wish I could post a pic haven't figured that out yet. The sides of the walls meeting the windows on the inside where never insulated. On going battle. I ripped out the dry wall in the front room myself and foamed the sides but not the top, did not want to patch the ceiling. I am still waiting for cold weather to see if it had a bearing.
So now armed with the whole story what do think ? I am inclined to think it is the installation with a mix of defective windows. ( Monda Windows a Chicago based firm )
So yea thanks again and what ya think ?
So now armed with the whole story what do think ? I am inclined to think it is the installation with a mix of defective windows. ( Monda Windows a Chicago based firm )
So yea thanks again and what ya think ?
#6
11-14-07, 03:57 PM
Group Moderator
As for the question about how to post pictures, when you go to reply, there will be an icon on the top bar (right side) that looks like a mountain with the sun setting. Click on that and then you will be able to paste the link to your picture. (Your picture would already need to have been uploaded to a website like your home page, or a service like photobucket).
You say the windows are 16" deep. Are these windows part of a "box window" which looks like the window bumps out from the rest of the house? If so, it's entirely possible that the box window isn't framed very well or insulated very well to begin with... sounds crazy if you had to fix that yourself!. When windows are set that deep there are airflow problems that cause the window to be colder than normal. The heat register likely doesn't blow warm air over the glass like it normally would if it were a normal window on a straight wall. For this reason, you probably have a window that is colder than normal to begin with, which leads to icing. If it's in a bedroom, the air you breath at night puts a lot of humidity into the air, which would create a lot of ice. It could also be due to an overall high humidity level in the house. But regardless of the humidity, if the glass gets cold because of being "isolated" from the circulation of warm conditioned air (whether that be due to the 16" bump out, or maybe you keep blinds or draperies closed over it, you will get ice no matter what.) Best thing you could do is to keep the blinds open and run a ceiling fan or similar to warm the windows in the coldest of weather.
Hopefully the glass in your new windows is a high performance glass with a low u-value. Do the windows still have the NFRC stickers on them? A u-value in the .20-.29's would be good. Anything above .35 is very poor. Low-e glass and warm edge spacer technology helps lower u-values, making them warmer and less prone to icing. But even good glass will get condensation and ice if the conditions are right.
Now what you mentioned about the draft... if door and window expanding foam is used around the perimeter of the window instead of fiberglass, that should solve that problem. The thing is that air can also come through the wall and around the framing. Even if the window itself is sealed up 100%, you might still get some air infiltration somewhere around the rough opening. A solution to this might be to rip out the drywall in the 16" that leads up to the window, then install 1/2" dow r-board or Tuff-r, then 1/2" drywall on top. It would add a little more r-value to that area of the wall.
If you get the chance to post a pic, that would be great. Pictures really are worth 1000 words.
You say the windows are 16" deep. Are these windows part of a "box window" which looks like the window bumps out from the rest of the house? If so, it's entirely possible that the box window isn't framed very well or insulated very well to begin with... sounds crazy if you had to fix that yourself!. When windows are set that deep there are airflow problems that cause the window to be colder than normal. The heat register likely doesn't blow warm air over the glass like it normally would if it were a normal window on a straight wall. For this reason, you probably have a window that is colder than normal to begin with, which leads to icing. If it's in a bedroom, the air you breath at night puts a lot of humidity into the air, which would create a lot of ice. It could also be due to an overall high humidity level in the house. But regardless of the humidity, if the glass gets cold because of being "isolated" from the circulation of warm conditioned air (whether that be due to the 16" bump out, or maybe you keep blinds or draperies closed over it, you will get ice no matter what.) Best thing you could do is to keep the blinds open and run a ceiling fan or similar to warm the windows in the coldest of weather.
Hopefully the glass in your new windows is a high performance glass with a low u-value. Do the windows still have the NFRC stickers on them? A u-value in the .20-.29's would be good. Anything above .35 is very poor. Low-e glass and warm edge spacer technology helps lower u-values, making them warmer and less prone to icing. But even good glass will get condensation and ice if the conditions are right.
Now what you mentioned about the draft... if door and window expanding foam is used around the perimeter of the window instead of fiberglass, that should solve that problem. The thing is that air can also come through the wall and around the framing. Even if the window itself is sealed up 100%, you might still get some air infiltration somewhere around the rough opening. A solution to this might be to rip out the drywall in the 16" that leads up to the window, then install 1/2" dow r-board or Tuff-r, then 1/2" drywall on top. It would add a little more r-value to that area of the wall.
If you get the chance to post a pic, that would be great. Pictures really are worth 1000 words.
#7
11-14-07, 04:22 PM
Windows
Hey thanks for your advice.I think that is the best explanation I have heard yet about the ice. It is a brick older building but new rehab with thick walls hence the deep sills.
I think that that it is a combining factor of all the things you have said. So to try to fix them all at this point would be expensive. But I am going to redo some things in the bedroom so I will try it there and get back to you.Thanks alot and I will get that pic thing together so I can post!!!!!
I think that that it is a combining factor of all the things you have said. So to try to fix them all at this point would be expensive. But I am going to redo some things in the bedroom so I will try it there and get back to you.Thanks alot and I will get that pic thing together so I can post!!!!!
