Aluminum Window pulls freezing over.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-08, 01:36 PM
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Aluminum Window pulls freezing over.

Hi,

I'm on the 4th (top) floor of a multi-unit fully renovated brick condo builiding in Chicago. The devloper installed aluminum windows (I hear it is good for multi-unit buildings, but it is not good for the cold!).

Since I moved in (for the past two winters), when it gets very cold outside the rail on the bottom of the window gets frosted over. This most likely happens at night when the thermostat goes down to the high 60's. During the day, when my inside temp goes up to the low 70's and the sun beats down on the windows, the frost melts and drips onto the wood sills. This obviously is bad for the wood.

So obviously, this is a condensation issue. However I don't believe I have alot of humidity in my home. I am relatively sensitive to humidity (I can feel and smell it... one day my girlfriend turned on the humidifier on the a/c unit to the lowest setting and I could sense a change as soon as I walked in). Part of the problem may be that the room in question is directly attached to the kitchen, where burning gas may leave behind some moisture. In any event, I don't think I can cut moisture down much lower in my home unless I want a bloody nose in the morning.

I want to stress that there is NO condensation on the window glass itself. There is only water/frost on the pull (I'm not sure if that's the right name, but it's the metal handle that runs across the window bottom to open/close it), and on the aluminum frame near the window bottom.

I know that the aluminum was a poor choice, and it the metal getting very cold that causes this, but there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent this. As all the metal parts of the window are connected, that means cold will always be wicked from the outer frame to the inner one.

I am of course worried about damage to the wood (I already had the developer come back after the first winter to replace some wood trim that was damaged from it), and mold.

I have thought about painting the window sill with a waterproof paint to at least help combat this. Is that a good idea? Of course that doesn't prevent the main issue of the frost forming in the first place. Is there anything I can do to help mitigate this?

Thanks for your help!
 
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Old 01-20-08, 01:53 PM
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Hi- and welcome to the DIY forums, I see this is your first post!

You're probably getting condensation and frost on the lift rail and bottom frame because of air infiltration at that point. You could first of all check to see if the sash is square with the frame of the window. Lift the window just a hair, so that you can see a narrow slit of light between the window sash and the window frame. The "reveal" of light should be straight. If you have a larger gap on one side than the other, then the window is out of square. If the window is out of square, it probably is not sealing completely when it is shut and locked. Adding some weatherstrip, or putting a thin piece of cloth under the window may help it seal better, depending on if this is needed or not. Keeping the windows locked is always a good idea during winter months. Temporary rope caulking might help as well. Dap Peel & Seal is another product for temporarily sealing drafty windows in the winter.

Like you mentioned, aluminum windows are not the best in cold climates anyway. The bottom portion of the frame will be the coldest simply because cold air falls. Even if you have low humidity, if the metal on the window frame is below the dewpoint, water will condense. And the frame of your window is obviously below 32F if you are getting frost.

So to prevent frost, if you feel the humidity is OK, the only other thing you can do is improve the airflow around the window. If you position a fan at the window, keep drapes and blinds pulled back, or maybe if you have a ceiling fan, let it run 100% of the time... these things will warm the window, preventing the frame from getting so cold.

Cooking, gas appliances like stoves, ovens, clothes dryers, even breathing in our bedrooms at night- all put moisture into the air, just like a hot shower would. But if you aren't having moisture on the glass, I would assume that your humidity in the home is fine.
 
  #3  
Old 01-20-08, 02:13 PM
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Thanks for the advice XSleeper...

Actually, there are no drapes or blinds up right now. I have been in here for a year and a half and haven't but them up because when winter came and I started getting these issues I was concerned that window treatments would get damaged by the moisture. I am just about to install some faux-wood blinds when I noticed the problems again.

There is a ceiling fan (not directly above the windows, but about 15' in front in the fully connected kitchen area, which stays on all the time. The ceilings are also very high (15' I think)

I also just noticed that the metal rails on the top half of the window (what the bottom window slides up into) also have quite abit of frost on them. I can also feel cold air seeping in from these top side rails. Do you think i should use the peel and seal inside the rails here? Even though it is removable it seems more that something that would expand to fill in the window track might be better. I don't want any type of sealant to get inside the window mechanics...but I haven't used the stuff before, so it might be ok(?).

I checked the "reveal" as you mentioned and there is maybe 1/8th to a 1/4 inch difference. So you say I should lay down some sort of insulation undertneath where the window closes? What type would you recommend?

thanks!
 
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Old 01-20-08, 02:32 PM
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Regarding the ceiling fan: most ceiling fans will have a switch on them which reverses the direction of the blades. Usually in the summer, we want to feel air blowing down on us. But in the winter, it usually makes sense to reverse this switch so that the blades turn the opposite direction, pulling cold air upward, and mixing it with the warm air that is already up near the ceiling. I would check into that, and maybe kick the speed of the fan up a notch.

As far as trying "something that would expand to fill in the window track", you could certainly get some open cell foam padding... usually used to insulate around window air conditioners and such. It comes in various sizes and is sold in packages along with the weatherstripping and caulking in most hardware stores.

As far as what you could lay down under the top sash, (or over the top sash) you might just try a strip of cloth first of all. Maybe cut an old t-shirt or towel into a strip that you could "pad" the sash with. If you have air infiltration, that might help seal the gap. If there is 1/4" difference, you'd likely need to layer the fabric padding to match the crookedness of the sash. For instance, a 10" strip of fabric, then a 20" strip then a 30" strip might provide the layers needed to match a crooked frame with the sash. You might also be able to find some sort of thin open cell foam that would be squishy enough to compress under the window. But I would advise against anything with adhesive on it, as it would be difficult to remove later.

As far as the rope caulk/ Dap Peel & Seal is concerned... that is something that I'd recommend if you have air infiltration coming around the window sashes, and the fabric idea (above) doesn't do the trick. With the windows closed and locked, you'd just apply some temporary sealant across the bottom and top of the sash, where it meets the frame- along the interior or exterior surface of the window- not under the sash.

Pointing an oscilating fan right at the window would probably solve the problem entirely by blowing warm air at the window it would both keep the window warm and dry. But you might not want that going full time just since it would be kind of a pain.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 02:50 PM
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Yes, the fan is in the "winter" position. I could increase the speed one more notch, but i tend to get a little vibration when I do that. In any event, when i put the blinds up I don't think the air is going to get in to where it needs to circulate anyway.

I have included a couple pictures for you to get an idea as to what is happening:



The above is the inner track of the window frame. This is where I feel some cold air must be coming into from the outside and then up the center channel. You can see in this next picture the frost forming (it's a little blurry):



So I would want to fill inside this track somehow to prevent the cold air. I don't think caulk/sealant is the right option as it would have to fill in a fairly large area and may seep inside somewhere on the track. I am kind of anal, so I would prefer something that has a somewhat finished appearance. Is the cell foam padding still what you would recommend after seeing this?

Also as far as the cloth goes...it seems alot of work to measure all the windows and cut multiple levels of cloth and place them in an ascending order. Is there some sort of rubber or foam strip that I could just lay inside and it will make a seal itself?

I don't mind spending a hundred bucks to go out and buy actual materials (instead of improvising). I just don't want to spend thousands on new windows!

thanks again!
 
  #6  
Old 01-20-08, 03:07 PM
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If you are getting enough condensation to damage wood trim, something is wrong. It could be that the windows are improperly installed, or that they were not designed with a correct "thermal break" between the inner and outer surfaces



or something else, but you should not have to "field modify" the windows to eliminate air infiltration / condensation.

I've been involved in such situations, and in the case of single family homes and condos it's sometimes been possible to get all the affected windows in the building replaced under the manufacturer's warranty, either free or a steeply discounted cost. If your are an owner I would suggest you raise this possibility with your condo or coop board - the first step is to have a manufacturer's rep look at the windows, you may also need an engineering report.

OTHO, if this is a rental you may just have to live with it.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 03:12 PM
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Thanks for the pics- now I can see what you're seeing.

The cold air you feel coming up the sides of the window is usually called "channeling". What happens is that cold air is coming under the bottom corners of the bottom window sash and is travelling up the side channels of the window- mainly because the window frame is out of square- not a condition you can fix unless you'd like to completely remove and reinstall the window. If your sashes do not fit down tight against the frame of the window when they are closed and locked, there will be a gap at the bottom corners of the window which will allow air to come up these side channels. This is why I recommended the strips of fabric, because they are the first step in reducing "channeling"- something that is an inherent problem with many cheap double hung windows. It seems to me that it is an easy solution that 5 minutes with a pair of sisscors might fix.

When you tip the window down (as if to clean) you will find a spiral shaped rod which has to be able to spin as the window is raised and lowered. The upper part of that rod casing (called a spiral balance) is fixed and does not move. You could certainly seal this rod in place with some DAP peel & seal, open cell foam padding, or even some small scraps of cloth. Sealing around the rod is a second way to slow "channeling". (tip the window in and only seal the portion that is below the tilt latch but above the spiral rod.)

Other possibilities for the frost:

The window may be spread slightly in the middle, allowing air to bypass the weatherstripping along the sides of the top sash. (window trim would need to be torn apart, window shimmed in, then retrimmed).

The aluminum frame may not be thermally broken, making for a cold frame. (No solution-cheap window)

At any rate, if all else fails, an extra fan is a sure fire solution, albeit an inconvenient one. That's winter for ya!
 
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Old 01-20-08, 03:33 PM
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Thanks again XSleeper and Michael.

(Michael, I'm unsure what I was supposed to take away from the picture you included).

I believe that this is my window:
http://www.crystalwindows.com/ser3000.htm

They are definitely Crystal Aluminum, and I think it is the 3000 series best I can tell from their webpage.

I have had their local window rep who sold the developer the windows come out and look at it. They claimed that there was nothing wrong. This however took place over the warmer months, so maybe I can get them back when the frost is actually showing up. If this is an issue of just removing the inner window and repositioning, then maybe it could be done. But if we are talking about acutually taking the whole window frame from the wall, well, then....

The issue is that even if the windows are faulty, and I could get them replaced (because they are still under warranty), this wouldn't include actually replacing the window. Meaning, if this is something about how the whole frame is installed in the wall, then that is a problem with how the builders installed the window, and not the window itself. The warranty on the window wouldn't cover that, and although I could make a case against the builder (as I have told him within my 1-year warranty period that i was having issues) the chance of me getting him to do anything without taking him to court is next to nothing. Other units in the building seem to have this problem to a certain degree, so my guess is these are either a) inferior windows or b) installed improperly. In either case, there isn't much we can do at this point without a substantial investment.

Unfortunately, it seems that the window guys aren't going to admit that the windows may be faulty (if they are), and any 3rd party window expert I bring in is going to try and sell me new windows. It's hard to get an impartial opinion.

I'm going to look at the inside of the window as you mention XSleeper. I might post some more shots about what I should caulk to make sure.

Thanks!
 
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Old 01-20-08, 03:44 PM
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You're right about the low probability of getting anything done with your current window for free, unless you DIY. Of course, since Michael is in Chicago maybe he could go lean on them for you. LOL!

Michael's illustration shows a cross section of a "thermally broken" aluminum window frame. The black area in the middle is not aluminum, but instead is a thermoplastic, which provides a thermal break between the inner and outer frame. Metals conduct heat out of the home, making them feel cold. The thermal break reduces the amount of conduction that takes place by separating the two halves of the window frame. Of course if 0F air is able to bypass the thermal break on a windy day by channeling up the sides of the window, by bypassing the weatherstripping, or perhaps by passing around an uninsulated window frame, bypassing the thermal break... then the thermal break really isn't going to help much anyway. However, it appears that the windows you mentioned HAVE a thermal break.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bhendin View Post
Thanks again XSleeper and Michael.
(Michael, I'm unsure what I was supposed to take away from the picture you included).
Thanks!
The black section is a "thermal" break", it's sometimes hard for people to visualize it's function/position in the window, thus the picture.

If this is a condo, and some/all of the windows are defective/incorrectly installed, the owners as a group, via the condo assn. can seek legal redress.

For example I was involved in a situation at a building in Evanston IL , a forty unit condo, where the window manufacturer offered every owner the option of replacement for the cost of labor only, around $40 per window, I believe.

Several hundred windows were replaced, it was less expensive for the manufacturer to do so than to fight it out in court.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 04:09 PM
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Gotcha...that makes sense. Yes according to the webpage, their windows do have a thermal break. I can't really "see" it by looking at the window. But I'm assuming, unless they bought and installed an old model which doesn't have it, that mine do.

Unfortunately, my DIY knowledge is not up to par to remove entire windows from my wall and remount them (if that needs to be done). The main room (with the windows in question) is definitely colder then the rest of the condo. I think that is in big part to there being so many windows (7 standard windows in a room about 3-400 sq ft.). AND the fact that none of them have coverings on them yet. I am sure once I put those up (planning on wood-composite blinds with a fabric roman-type shade with an insulation liner on top of those), it will increase the insulation tremendously. But, my guess is the windows themselves will still have the same issues as they are behind the blinds.

So, although the drafts and frost is a problem, and I am probably paying a bit more in heating costs, the cold isn't my major concern. My major concern is the fact that the frost turns to water and drips on the wood.

Here are some more pictures:


The above is the outer part of the lower window (I tilted the windows inward as if for cleaning) you can see the arrows point to the existing furry weatherstriping.



In the above picture you can see the spiral rod you mentioned. There appears to be a black piece of rubber (outlined in red) which serves as a stopper to insulate the channel. It appears to fill the space and create a decent seal. Below is a close up of that rubber piece, you can see the ice forming below and above it (there was actually some more I chipped away by pressing on it...I though it was silicone for a minute!). You can also see I outlined the side striping on the windows, just to show that it does seem to have some insulation in place.



So what additionally should I be sealing?

Will some neoprene (or other rubber/foam) foam work as good or better than the cloth you recommended for sealing underneath the sash? I don't really have any spare cloth laying around, so I need to go buy something anyway.

And, based on what I have shown now, would you say that the issue seems mostly:
a) windows are damaged
b) windows are installed poorly
c) windows are just cheap-o

If the answer is a or b, can they be fixed simply by removing the window from the frame and doing something to repair it, or is the entire window frame likely to need to be removed from the wall?

Thanks you're being really helpful!
 
  #12  
Old 01-20-08, 04:17 PM
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In addition to my below post...

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
If this is a condo, and some/all of the windows are defective/incorrectly installed, the owners as a group, via the condo assn. can seek legal redress.

For example I was involved in a situation at a building in Evanston IL , a forty unit condo, where the window manufacturer offered every owner the option of replacement for the cost of labor only, around $40 per window, I believe.

Several hundred windows were replaced, it was less expensive for the manufacturer to do so than to fight it out in court.

Are talking about just taking out the inner windows and replacing them or actually taking out the whole frame? I already had the window guys come back once and refit some of the windows (as the rods weren't wound properly and some were snapping out when the window was opened). If that part of the window is bad, then I think I might have a chance of having them replace them all. Since they are under warranty.

However, they didn't install the windows, so if there is something wrong with how the frame was installed in the wall, or the surrounding insulation, the window manufacturer won't do anything (and neither will my builder at this point).

My question to you then is Michael, if I showed these pictures to the window manufacturer are they going to acknowledge that this isn't right? Or will they say either:
a) Oh, well frost like this happens in very cold weather
or
b) It must be a humidity issue inside your condo
or
c) The windows were installed improperly, and we are not reponsible for that.

If this can be solved by having to pay them $200 bucks (if not covered by warranty) to refit all the windows, then I wll probably do it. But no one is going to actually remount the frames, etc. for me.

thanks for your expertise.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 04:22 PM
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Those are some great pictures- you ought to have been a photographer!

Since your pictures show that there already is some sealing that has been done around the base of the spiral balance casing, and this has not eliminated the frost... Adding cloth / neoprene under the sashes likely would not help much either. But I'd still try it anyway, since it likely couldn't HURT, and you have already determined the frame *is* slightly out of square.

The next thing I would suspect is the last thing I mentioned in my previous reply...

if 0F air is able to bypass the thermal break... by passing around an uninsulated window frame, bypassing the thermal break...

So you'd want to see if the entire frame of the window has adequate insulation around it. To check this, you'd need to remove the interior trim, which may or may not be something you feel qualified to attempt. If there is little or no insulation, cold air is able to completely surround the window frame and there would be a better chance of developing frost. This would be an installation problem, where the installer was negligent or at least deficient.

As far as blinds and draperies are concerned, you are right- windows themselves will still have the same issues as they are behind the blinds. In fact, the problem will likely become worse, since the draperies will make the windows even colder.

And in answer to your multiple choice question... I'm leaning towards C. If no other windows in your unit have this same problem, however, it might be a combination of B & C.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 04:36 PM
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OK, now you've confused me a bit

I thought the cloth underneath the sash was to prevent air from coming in near the bottom of the window and frosting up the metal pull rail? Won't it still help with the frost down there?

Is "removing the interior trim" something that would involve removing the entire frame, and thus the wood molding, etc. away from the wall? Or is this something that can be peeled away after just removing the window glass?

thanks.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 04:49 PM
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Sorry about that- if you have frost along the BOTTOM of the window, on the pull rail, then yes... adding some foam, cloth, neoprene, etc. should help with that. It would also help reduce the amount of channeling that is occuring up the sides of the window. But what I meant was that since your pictures already showed some sealing that was done (by the factory) around the base of the spiral balances, adding neoprene would likely not reduce the channeling that is occurring on the SIDES of the window, near your tilt latches.

Removing the interior trim would mean removing the interior wood casing and wood jamb- the parts you say are being damaged by water. If they need to be replaced anyway, then ripping them off would be part of the process anyway. You would need to remove the casing and jamb in order to see whether there is any insulation (or enough insulation) around the exterior of the aluminum window frame. If the frame turns out to be well insulated, well... then you've eliminated that possibility and you're back to "C". Cheap-o window.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 05:08 PM
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Gotcha.

Well, I don't think I want the expenditure of removing the whole window at this point. I suppose if I paid someone to do it and they found that it was poorly insulated, I might have a case against the builder (as it would be considered a defect in workmanship, coupled with the fact that this has been ongoing since i moved in). In the end though I would probably need to pay for it all myself and then hope I could recoup from him in court.

As the whole building is newly rehabbed (2 years), I feel it foolish to go and spend alot of money to have this done. I will probably only here for a few more years, and as long as i can prevent permanent damage to the wood, then it shouldn't be a concern when I sell.

There is no wood damaged now, i had the builder come and replace what was damaged last winter. Unfortunately they were too lazy to remove the windows at the same time to see if there was an issue. I'm sure that they put insulation in..they aren't total amateurs, but they may not have done everything perfect. I have the feeling that the windows are kind of cheapo.

So, at this point I think I am going to do the following:
1) Contact the manufacturer (a regional rep instead of the local guy that already came), and see if they say this frost buildup is normal.
2) Put some sort of neoprene seal under the sash.
3) Stuff some foam padding around the upper channel
That will hopefull reduce the cold air that is freezing the aluminum.

I'm also going to re-paint the sill with a waterproof paint (I'm sure there is something that will fit the bill) to help prevent any permanent damage from any water that does form.

I also saw in some magazine these little runners that you could place on the sill that supposedly suck up water. I need to find those again.

Thanks so much for your advice, if you have any other ideas let me know!
 
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Old 01-20-08, 05:19 PM
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>>I don't think I want the expenditure of removing the whole window at this point.

You wouldn't be removing the whole window... just the trim. The wood trim is not part of the aluminum window frame. I wouldn't bet that they checked for insulation, even if they have already removed that trim once.

If you are worrried about possible damage and liability due to the frost melting and wrecking the woodwork, you might be able to get them to put it into writing that you aren't responsible for frost melting from their crummy windows. And document the damage that has occurred, and that has been repaired, along with your photos. This really shouldn't be your responsibility to mop up condensation on a daily basis.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 05:53 PM
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Well so they would probably have to rip out all the trim area (shown outline in red below)?



As you can see it spans the double-window. I'm sure it's a few hundred bucks to have someone come in and take all that out (without damaging it), assess the situation and then replace it properly. If I was in a situation where it was totally dilapitated, I would attempt to start from scratch myself (after all you couldn't break it any worse, right?).

As far as damage/liability...I'm the owner, so no one else is responsible. If I can prove faulty windows I can get them replaced under warranty, but only the actual window parts... I'd need to pay someone to actually rip out the old ones and install the new ones. If I can prove faulty workmanship in the installation I can try to get the builder to redo it or pay to have it redone. But as I stated, I'd probably have to take him to court. If they are just cruddy windows, I can't do anything, as I bought the place as-is (installing a poor quality window I don't think it bad workmanship per se...so I don't think I could really pursue on those grounds).

Maybe I'm way off on cost, but i think it would cost a couple hundred bucks to have someone to come out, take apart one and check the insulation. If they found that the insulation was bad, I assume it would probably take a couple thousand to have them fix the insulation on all the windows....

ah well
 
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Old 01-20-08, 06:08 PM
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Yes, you've got the right idea.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 06:58 PM
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If they removed all that trim, and could tell that the insulation was poor, is that also enough to fix the issue?

Meaning can they place, push, or spray additional insulation around the window and then just replace the trim? Or, would they most likely need to remove more of the window/wall to fix the problem?

thanks again!
 
  #21  
Old 01-20-08, 07:19 PM
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Once they remove the trim, they will expose the space between the window and the rough opening, which is likely a gap that is about 1/2" wide. That gap should be filled with insulation. If I was doing it, I'd remove any fiberglass insulation that is currently filling that gap and attempt to completely fill the gap with a low-expanding foam insulation that is made for doors and windows. It is the most effective at stopping air movement. Fiberglass only slows air, it doesn't stop it. So yes, once the trim is removed, they should be able to adequately insulate the perimeter of the window without removing the window itself or anything else.

Whether or not this would "fix" the frost problem or not is anyone's guess. But it would certainly help. Aluminum windows are prone to this sort of thing, so all an installer can do is try to do the best job possible and the rest is up to the quality of the window.
 
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Old 01-20-08, 07:24 PM
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Got it.

Well, Im gonna run through my other options and see how it goes. I'll post back here if i get any results so people can see for future reference.

thanks for the insight!
 
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