basement windows...the frame and the base??
#1
05-30-08, 04:33 PM
basement windows...the frame and the base??
so im about to replace the hopper/awuning style windows in my basement. I ripped out one of the old wooden frames and it would appear that im in for more than i bargined for.
THe bottom was rotten so im glad i got that out but the window measures your standard 15x32. This is all fine and good but it would appear that there is a "cap" of concrete on the blocks to which the frame was set in.
It is about an inch thick or more easy. Do i want to smash this out and lay my new windows right on the cinder block beneath? This cap is at a slight angle and from the inside of the house slants down at a 45 degree angle.
Im not sure why this was done 50+ years ago but maybe that is how they set basement windows back then. If remove this troweled concrete wont i have access directy down into the holes of the cinder block? Id assme this cap is there for a reason.
Mabe ill leave it and square it up as much as possible. No idea here.
THe bottom was rotten so im glad i got that out but the window measures your standard 15x32. This is all fine and good but it would appear that there is a "cap" of concrete on the blocks to which the frame was set in.
It is about an inch thick or more easy. Do i want to smash this out and lay my new windows right on the cinder block beneath? This cap is at a slight angle and from the inside of the house slants down at a 45 degree angle.
Im not sure why this was done 50+ years ago but maybe that is how they set basement windows back then. If remove this troweled concrete wont i have access directy down into the holes of the cinder block? Id assme this cap is there for a reason.
Mabe ill leave it and square it up as much as possible. No idea here.
#2
05-30-08, 04:49 PM
i should have stated that chiping out the concrete will make this hole much bigger top to bottom.
I can post a picture or 2 so that it is clearer if that helps.
UPDATE
so after doing some searching this Cement Sill problem i have.......it would seem there are mixed opinions. THe wood was set right into the concrete which as since rotted away. IM wondering if i can try and square off the sill with a grinder or small chisel rather than take the whole thing out and re-pour a new one. FOr the most part......i would think this serves a purpose and shouldnt be taken out.
Thoughts
I can post a picture or 2 so that it is clearer if that helps.
UPDATE
so after doing some searching this Cement Sill problem i have.......it would seem there are mixed opinions. THe wood was set right into the concrete which as since rotted away. IM wondering if i can try and square off the sill with a grinder or small chisel rather than take the whole thing out and re-pour a new one. FOr the most part......i would think this serves a purpose and shouldnt be taken out.
Thoughts
Last edited by scale21; 05-30-08 at 05:25 PM.
#3
05-30-08, 06:10 PM
Group Moderator
I didn't catch what type/size of windows you plan to install into the masonry opening. If you look at the cement blocks, if there is an 8" block below the sloped cap, then yes, the cement likely goes down into the holes of the blocks... and this is sometimes a pain in the neck to remove. If you beat on it too much you run the risk of breaking the block, which would make you more work. But if there is a 4" block below the sloped cap, then you likely have a "solid" under your sloped cap, in which case, the sloped cap will likely break off cleanly without too much effort. You'd want to chip off as much old mortar as possible and then clean it off with a grinder and cup wheel or diamond blade. - If you want to remove the sloped cap, that is.
The sloped cap was there for windows that are centered on the 8" block- they obviously need to have a sloped sill in front of them so that water drains off the front.
If your new window will be installed toward the outside of the 8" block, and maybe has its own sill, or you'll install a sill onto the front when you trim the window, then perhaps the sloped mortar cap is not needed. You might be able to gain some room, or seal the new window up better if it was removed. hard to say without the specific size/type of window that is going in.
Let's say you have a vinyl window that will just fit into the opening. If it fits on top of the sloped mortar cap, and the gap around the window is close enough that you can just run a bead of sealant all the way around the window, then you'd likely want to leave the cap in place, provided it's in good shape, not cracked in pieces, etc.
Hope this helps, or at least gets you pointed in the right direction.
The sloped cap was there for windows that are centered on the 8" block- they obviously need to have a sloped sill in front of them so that water drains off the front.
If your new window will be installed toward the outside of the 8" block, and maybe has its own sill, or you'll install a sill onto the front when you trim the window, then perhaps the sloped mortar cap is not needed. You might be able to gain some room, or seal the new window up better if it was removed. hard to say without the specific size/type of window that is going in.
Let's say you have a vinyl window that will just fit into the opening. If it fits on top of the sloped mortar cap, and the gap around the window is close enough that you can just run a bead of sealant all the way around the window, then you'd likely want to leave the cap in place, provided it's in good shape, not cracked in pieces, etc.
Hope this helps, or at least gets you pointed in the right direction.
#4
05-30-08, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by XSleeper
I didn't catch what type/size of windows you plan to install into the masonry opening. If you look at the cement blocks, if there is an 8" block below the sloped cap, then yes, the cement likely goes down into the holes of the blocks... and this is sometimes a pain in the neck to remove. If you beat on it too much you run the risk of breaking the block, which would make you more work. But if there is a 4" block below the sloped cap, then you likely have a "solid" under your sloped cap, in which case, the sloped cap will likely break off cleanly without too much effort. You'd want to chip off as much old mortar as possible and then clean it off with a grinder and cup wheel or diamond blade. - If you want to remove the sloped cap, that is.
The sloped cap was there for windows that are centered on the 8" block- they obviously need to have a sloped sill in front of them so that water drains off the front.
If your new window will be installed toward the outside of the 8" block, and maybe has its own sill, or you'll install a sill onto the front when you trim the window, then perhaps the sloped mortar cap is not needed. You might be able to gain some room, or seal the new window up better if it was removed. hard to say without the specific size/type of window that is going in.
Let's say you have a vinyl window that will just fit into the opening. If it fits on top of the sloped mortar cap, and the gap around the window is close enough that you can just run a bead of sealant all the way around the window, then you'd likely want to leave the cap in place, provided it's in good shape, not cracked in pieces, etc.
Hope this helps, or at least gets you pointed in the right direction.
The sloped cap was there for windows that are centered on the 8" block- they obviously need to have a sloped sill in front of them so that water drains off the front.
If your new window will be installed toward the outside of the 8" block, and maybe has its own sill, or you'll install a sill onto the front when you trim the window, then perhaps the sloped mortar cap is not needed. You might be able to gain some room, or seal the new window up better if it was removed. hard to say without the specific size/type of window that is going in.
Let's say you have a vinyl window that will just fit into the opening. If it fits on top of the sloped mortar cap, and the gap around the window is close enough that you can just run a bead of sealant all the way around the window, then you'd likely want to leave the cap in place, provided it's in good shape, not cracked in pieces, etc.
Hope this helps, or at least gets you pointed in the right direction.
Sure does. The windows are standard 32x15 hopper style and i want to replace them with vinyl sliders from pella.
I was thinking i could just slap it a replacement with tapcons and sealant from what ive been reading. Not sure the best way to go about it. IT is a full 8" block under the window but the cap sounds hollow. It isnt all beat up and wrecked. It is actually in quite nice shape. That is why i was wondering if i could just clean up the cap near the edge where the old wood window frame was pushed in to the motar to help square it off so i can slide my new window in place cleanly.
How do you torque these vinyl windows down? DO you run tapcons in the sides of them and the top screws into the joist. Then leave the bottom loose and seal up with the window and door foam?
Also...what size tapcons do you run usually? 3/16 or 1/4? How long?
Seems easy enough but i want to make sure ive covered all my bases before i start so i have a plan.
#5
05-30-08, 06:59 PM
Group Moderator
I don't use Pella's vinyl windows, but yes, you'd basically center the window in the opening with some wood shims at all 4 corners to hold the window in place. Then you'd install 4 tapcons at the top and bottom of each side. (no holes on bottom or top) You'd predrill a hole if there is none provided.
You'd need to ensure that the bottom of the window is level and supported with shims. (another reason why the sloped mortar might need to go, if it prevents the window from being evenly supported across the bottom.) A new sloped sill could always be poured up to the outside of the window, then could be caulked once it has cured.
A pair of wood screws could be run through the top center of the frame and into the sill plate above, if that's the condition you have above the window. You'll want to ensure the center of the window is not spread too wide.
I like 1/4" tapcons, they hold better than the 3/16" ones, IMO. Esp in cement block, which can strip easily. I like the ones with the hex head over the ones with the phillips head. But if you have an impact driver, the phillips head will work too. If you use phillips drive, you might want to countersink the holes into the vinyl slightly, with a countersinker. But be careful as you countersink, or you're countersinker will act like a 1/2" drill bit in the vinyl. I'd stick with the hex head to be safe and forget the countersinking. But that's me. When you tighten the screw down, you won't torque it down. Just bring the screw up snug. The shims keep the window square... the screws simply keep it from moving in and out... or prevent someone from kicking it in.
As far as the length, the screw needs to penetrate at least 1" of cement. With a hollow cement block, it would be hard to get the screw too long unless you happened to hit the edge where it was solid. So you might want a 2 3/4" screw if you are going through 1" of vinyl frame and 1/2" of rough opening space around the window. But you'll have to determine the length based on what you find when you go to work on it.
You'd need to ensure that the bottom of the window is level and supported with shims. (another reason why the sloped mortar might need to go, if it prevents the window from being evenly supported across the bottom.) A new sloped sill could always be poured up to the outside of the window, then could be caulked once it has cured.
A pair of wood screws could be run through the top center of the frame and into the sill plate above, if that's the condition you have above the window. You'll want to ensure the center of the window is not spread too wide.
I like 1/4" tapcons, they hold better than the 3/16" ones, IMO. Esp in cement block, which can strip easily. I like the ones with the hex head over the ones with the phillips head. But if you have an impact driver, the phillips head will work too. If you use phillips drive, you might want to countersink the holes into the vinyl slightly, with a countersinker. But be careful as you countersink, or you're countersinker will act like a 1/2" drill bit in the vinyl. I'd stick with the hex head to be safe and forget the countersinking. But that's me. When you tighten the screw down, you won't torque it down. Just bring the screw up snug. The shims keep the window square... the screws simply keep it from moving in and out... or prevent someone from kicking it in.
As far as the length, the screw needs to penetrate at least 1" of cement. With a hollow cement block, it would be hard to get the screw too long unless you happened to hit the edge where it was solid. So you might want a 2 3/4" screw if you are going through 1" of vinyl frame and 1/2" of rough opening space around the window. But you'll have to determine the length based on what you find when you go to work on it.
#6
05-30-08, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by XSleeper
I don't use Pella's vinyl windows, but yes, you'd basically center the window in the opening with some wood shims at all 4 corners to hold the window in place. Then you'd install 4 tapcons at the top and bottom of each side. (no holes on bottom or top) You'd predrill a hole if there is none provided.
You'd need to ensure that the bottom of the window is level and supported with shims. (another reason why the sloped mortar might need to go, if it prevents the window from being evenly supported across the bottom.) A new sloped sill could always be poured up to the outside of the window, then could be caulked once it has cured.
A pair of wood screws could be run through the top center of the frame and into the sill plate above, if that's the condition you have above the window. You'll want to ensure the center of the window is not spread too wide.
I like 1/4" tapcons, they hold better than the 3/16" ones, IMO. Esp in cement block, which can strip easily. I like the ones with the hex head over the ones with the phillips head. But if you have an impact driver, the phillips head will work too. If you use phillips drive, you might want to countersink the holes into the vinyl slightly, with a countersinker. But be careful as you countersink, or you're countersinker will act like a 1/2" drill bit in the vinyl. I'd stick with the hex head to be safe and forget the countersinking. But that's me. When you tighten the screw down, you won't torque it down. Just bring the screw up snug. The shims keep the window square... the screws simply keep it from moving in and out... or prevent someone from kicking it in.
As far as the length, the screw needs to penetrate at least 1" of cement. With a hollow cement block, it would be hard to get the screw too long unless you happened to hit the edge where it was solid. So you might want a 2 3/4" screw if you are going through 1" of vinyl frame and 1/2" of rough opening space around the window. But you'll have to determine the length based on what you find when you go to work on it.
You'd need to ensure that the bottom of the window is level and supported with shims. (another reason why the sloped mortar might need to go, if it prevents the window from being evenly supported across the bottom.) A new sloped sill could always be poured up to the outside of the window, then could be caulked once it has cured.
A pair of wood screws could be run through the top center of the frame and into the sill plate above, if that's the condition you have above the window. You'll want to ensure the center of the window is not spread too wide.
I like 1/4" tapcons, they hold better than the 3/16" ones, IMO. Esp in cement block, which can strip easily. I like the ones with the hex head over the ones with the phillips head. But if you have an impact driver, the phillips head will work too. If you use phillips drive, you might want to countersink the holes into the vinyl slightly, with a countersinker. But be careful as you countersink, or you're countersinker will act like a 1/2" drill bit in the vinyl. I'd stick with the hex head to be safe and forget the countersinking. But that's me. When you tighten the screw down, you won't torque it down. Just bring the screw up snug. The shims keep the window square... the screws simply keep it from moving in and out... or prevent someone from kicking it in.
As far as the length, the screw needs to penetrate at least 1" of cement. With a hollow cement block, it would be hard to get the screw too long unless you happened to hit the edge where it was solid. So you might want a 2 3/4" screw if you are going through 1" of vinyl frame and 1/2" of rough opening space around the window. But you'll have to determine the length based on what you find when you go to work on it.
So you dont throw the tapcons into the sides....only to the bottom? The top is wood joists so i know what you are saying for the center and the sides of the top. Wood screws are the way to go here. I woudl think that the sides need somthing to attach to....
IM afraid of the bottom because if i drill that sill it might crack. I guess that is my only concern here.
#7
05-30-08, 07:17 PM
Group Moderator
The tapcons go toward the top and bottom of each SIDE, so yes, they are in the side, not the top or bottom. Sorry if I made that sound confusing. A window that size could use 2 screws in the left side, 2 screws in the right side, and 2 screws in the top (preferably a pair in the middle of the window... one in the inside slider track, one in the outside slider track.)
You definately do not want to drill ANY holes through the bottom of the frame (the sill) because that could lead to leaks and water intrusion.
When you go to caulk around the window, I'd recommend a urethane/polyurethane sealant such as Vulkum, or Sonneborn NP1. You want something that sticks tenaciously to cement.
Incidentally, you might want to hit "reply" instead of "quote" if the quotation is not necessary.
You definately do not want to drill ANY holes through the bottom of the frame (the sill) because that could lead to leaks and water intrusion.
When you go to caulk around the window, I'd recommend a urethane/polyurethane sealant such as Vulkum, or Sonneborn NP1. You want something that sticks tenaciously to cement.
Incidentally, you might want to hit "reply" instead of "quote" if the quotation is not necessary.
#8
05-30-08, 07:31 PM
thanks for the info!
sorry about quote vs reply...
heheh
well im off to plan my window install.
ive got a good wheel grinder with a diamond bit that i can use to flush and plumb up that sill.
Ill probably post more as questions arise
sorry about quote vs reply...
heheh
well im off to plan my window install.
ive got a good wheel grinder with a diamond bit that i can use to flush and plumb up that sill.
Ill probably post more as questions arise
#10
05-31-08, 02:18 PM
ok....i have roughed in the new window. I have a bit of overhang at the bottom. It fits pretty much tight on the top and bottom and is pretty darn square. I have to mess around yet to get it perfect. I have about 1/4 inch on each side.
I picked up some composite shims to go in the sides. I dont think i need to shim the bottom or top. Heck i might be able to get a shim in there. Ill have to try. IS there any rule against not having shims on the top and bottom?
ALso.....how does one go about sealing it up? I hear you on the quality poly sealant from the outside. Do you just get that Great STuff window and door stuff in a can for the inside?
I dont imagine ill be getting much of this foam on the top or bottom. They are pretty much right to the wood on the top and right on the slanted concrete sill on the bottom (is there somthing i can use to fill the slant from the outside to kinda fill up that small void?)
I have yet to drill my holes but i did get a good bit and some tapcons for the sides.
THe way the window sits right now it is flush with the house at the top with just a bit of overhang on the bottom over the cement sill cap
I picked up some composite shims to go in the sides. I dont think i need to shim the bottom or top. Heck i might be able to get a shim in there. Ill have to try. IS there any rule against not having shims on the top and bottom?
ALso.....how does one go about sealing it up? I hear you on the quality poly sealant from the outside. Do you just get that Great STuff window and door stuff in a can for the inside?
I dont imagine ill be getting much of this foam on the top or bottom. They are pretty much right to the wood on the top and right on the slanted concrete sill on the bottom (is there somthing i can use to fill the slant from the outside to kinda fill up that small void?)
I have yet to drill my holes but i did get a good bit and some tapcons for the sides.
THe way the window sits right now it is flush with the house at the top with just a bit of overhang on the bottom over the cement sill cap
#11
05-31-08, 03:04 PM
Group Moderator
Provided there is constant support on the bottom, shims on bottom are not needed. You wouldn't want it to be up in the air with no support, so if that was the case, you'd want to shim it.
Using door & window foam will work to air seal the interior. Doesn't work real well for gaps 1/4" and smaller unless you have the kind with the straw so that you aren't just running a bead on the surface. Just be careful not to make a mess with it. And be sure not to use the Great Stuff for cracks and gaps that expands a lot.
Using door & window foam will work to air seal the interior. Doesn't work real well for gaps 1/4" and smaller unless you have the kind with the straw so that you aren't just running a bead on the surface. Just be careful not to make a mess with it. And be sure not to use the Great Stuff for cracks and gaps that expands a lot.
#12
05-31-08, 03:12 PM
and just a hefty bead of some decent poly sealant around all 4 sides from the outside?
Do i want to put anything (sealant) on the frame before putting it in the hole and screwing it down? I wouldnt think so but ive come this far....id rather not screw it up now
Do i want to put anything (sealant) on the frame before putting it in the hole and screwing it down? I wouldnt think so but ive come this far....id rather not screw it up now
#13
05-31-08, 04:18 PM
Group Moderator
The new window has no nailing fin, correct? If so, you won't caulk around it until after it's installed. You might run a bead along the bottom of the rough opening and set the window into it to ensure you have a good seal on the bottom. Sometimes it's impossible to caulk UNDER a sill once the window is installed, so caulking beforehand, setting the window into the sealant is a good idea in those instances.
#14
05-31-08, 04:29 PM
perfect.....
Nope...no nailing fin on these.
Ill plan to run a nice bead at the base for the window to sit in just so i have a good seal and then do just as you said. ......shim both sides and then drill my tapcons....
do you wan the holes to go through the shims on the sides or run your screws where the shims arent and just snug them very lightly. Id imagine going through the shims might be desired to give it a firmer hold but then again you dont really torque these down because they will just tear through the vinyl at that point...
sorry for all the questions but like i said....ive come this far....i dont want to hose it up now.
Thanks for all the great info!
Nope...no nailing fin on these.
Ill plan to run a nice bead at the base for the window to sit in just so i have a good seal and then do just as you said. ......shim both sides and then drill my tapcons....
do you wan the holes to go through the shims on the sides or run your screws where the shims arent and just snug them very lightly. Id imagine going through the shims might be desired to give it a firmer hold but then again you dont really torque these down because they will just tear through the vinyl at that point...
sorry for all the questions but like i said....ive come this far....i dont want to hose it up now.
Thanks for all the great info!
#15
05-31-08, 05:11 PM
Group Moderator
Questions and answers are what make this board tick! Short answer is that your screws should be placed on or very near the shims. And you're right about just bringing the screw up snug, not overtightening it. Glad to help... keep those questions coming.
#16
06-22-08, 12:51 PM
so i finally got around to putting in my first window.
It is in and the tapcons are drilled through the shims at the 4 corners. I have one screw so far that runs up through into the header board.
So far so good.
im putting in the foam backer rod around the frame before i caulk in the sides and bottom with the vulkum.
what doyou do with the shim that is left sticking out on the 4 corners? Try to cut it flush? Do you countersink it a bit so you can run caulk right over it once it is cut?
Heck i can break out the dremel and do that.
It is in and the tapcons are drilled through the shims at the 4 corners. I have one screw so far that runs up through into the header board.
So far so good.
im putting in the foam backer rod around the frame before i caulk in the sides and bottom with the vulkum.
what doyou do with the shim that is left sticking out on the 4 corners? Try to cut it flush? Do you countersink it a bit so you can run caulk right over it once it is cut?
Heck i can break out the dremel and do that.
#17
07-14-08, 05:52 PM
the are all in.....
all my windows are in down in my basement. THe project went great. Thanks for all the help
I do have one more question
Do i run a bead of vulkum across the top of the outside of the window at all or just let it rest on the truss? I put the door and window foam on it as best i could from the inside. Is anything on the outside needed on the top? I got the bottoms vulkumed in really good as well as the sides.
I do have one more question
Do i run a bead of vulkum across the top of the outside of the window at all or just let it rest on the truss? I put the door and window foam on it as best i could from the inside. Is anything on the outside needed on the top? I got the bottoms vulkumed in really good as well as the sides.
#18
07-14-08, 07:41 PM
Group Moderator
If the gap is small enough to caulk, then yes... you can run a bead of sealant across the top. If the gap is too large to caulk, make an exterior stop (1x2 or similar) that you can nail up to the sill. Then it will require a much smaller bead of sealant.
Glad you're having good results!
Glad you're having good results!
#19
07-16-08, 07:03 AM
thanks..
i wasnt sure if you were suppose to seal the top tight or not.
I havent done it yet but they are fit tight to the house so i think ill be ok if it rains in the mean time. Ill get to it this weekend and seal up the tops.
wow...that vulkum is some nasty stuff if you get it on yourself.
Comes off with acetone though.
i wasnt sure if you were suppose to seal the top tight or not.
I havent done it yet but they are fit tight to the house so i think ill be ok if it rains in the mean time. Ill get to it this weekend and seal up the tops.
wow...that vulkum is some nasty stuff if you get it on yourself.
Comes off with acetone though.
