So where exactly does the caulk go?


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Old 10-22-08, 04:34 PM
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So where exactly does the caulk go?

When it is raining extremely hard and the wind blows just right I have a small leak in my front window. In the two years I've owned my house I have seen it leak a total of three times. Furthermore, I have a mushroom growing on the outside of my window. Upon taking a look at the window, I noticed that they did not caulk the top or the bottom of the window. I'm really not sure why. I did check and there are no weep holes. Any ideas why these areas haven't been caulked? Am I right in assuming they should be?

Thanks,
Adam





This water damage is in addition to the spot where I have the leak.


My mushroom


Upper right hand corner. I'm going to replace the caulk on the side as its cracked.
 
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Old 10-22-08, 04:40 PM
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I don't see any flashing on top of the window and under the trim. This is imperative. I would remove the trim, properly flash/caulk/tape the window flange area and replace with new trim. Adding caulk won't stop the water as it is probably entering above the window and finding its way down to the bottom where it settles and rots the trim.
 
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Old 10-22-08, 04:57 PM
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Thnaks for the quick reply. There is a drip cap installed above the wood trim but not between the window and the trim. I should of taken a better picture. Does you advice still stand?
 
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Old 10-22-08, 05:37 PM
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Vinyl siding lets water behind it in numerous places, so just caulking the window to the trim probably won't solve 100% of your water intrusion issues. It's good that the drip cap is over the trim. But if you have any windows on the 2nd story above this window, (or any other penetration in the siding) it could be the source of a small periodic leak, if the nailing flange of the window is not taped and that water runs down the building paper, it can get behind the drip cap. (assuming the drip cap is not flashed behind the building paper and taped).

If the drip shows up at the top of the window, that's probably what's happening- water is entering the opening from above, getting behind the nailing fin of the window. If it shows up below, it's probably just running down the sides of the window until it hits the bottom of the rough opening. Or maybe it's entering through the holes provided in the nailing flange.

As far as the trim being caulked to the window, it's a good idea to seal the trim to the window, but it looks like the two are so close to being at the same level that it will be difficult to do and get to look good- especially with that groove in the window being so close. If you caulk it, you will want to be very careful and use a very fine bead, tooling it as flat and smooth as possible as you caulk.

Caulk is *rarely* used as the only means to prevent leaks- mechanical means of flashing are your primary means of preventing leaks. So if your window is leaking, there is probably some sort of deficiency in the way the window was installed, the way the housewrap is lapped, the way the siding is installed, or any combination of the three.

The decay on the wood trim is not surprising, caulking the joint between it and the window might have prevented "some" of that damage. I'd suggest you remove the trim... see if the nailing flange is taped to the housewrap... inspect under the housewrap above the window (any water behind the housewrap will have caused obvious damage) and really get a good look at what's going on before it gets worse. That cedar trim is very easy to replace, so anyone with any skill at all could do this. Apply window flashing tape over the nailing flange if there is not any there... and replace the trim. (oil based primer and latex paint on all sides of the trim prior to installing it- front and back) Neatly caulk the perimeter of the window to the trim, and the perimeter of the trim to the j-channel. Your problem will likely be solved.
 
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Old 10-05-10, 06:42 PM
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Damage housewarp

Xsleeper thanks for the help from long ago. I was lazy and thought that the caulk alone solved my problem. Took a look today and the bottom trim is totally rotted so it along with the other tirm is coming off tomorrow. Is it possible to damage the house wrap when I'm prying up the trim? I've seen them put housewrap on other houses in the sub division but have never seen it up close/

Thanks again for all your help,
Adam
 
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Old 10-05-10, 07:06 PM
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Hi Adam,

Yeah that was a long time ago! You should be able to pry the trim off, and the housewrap should be ok. Even if is is damaged, they make some window flashing tapes that you can buy that might work well behind your trim.

Once you get the trim off, you will see the true extent of the damage. Hopefully it is just the trim and not worse. You likely need to investigate whether or not the drip cap on top is doing it's job. Water coming down the housewrap from above (water behind the siding) should be able to EXIT the envelope over the drip cap, not run BEHIND the drip cap. Therefore the top of the drip cap should not be caulked.
 
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Old 10-07-10, 02:31 PM
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You sound like me working on my place, lol. I noticed the cedar trim was almost tight to the window without any room for a proper bead of caulking. I'm guessing they didn't use any backer rod either.... The vinyl window and wood trim expand and contract with the seasons, even between night and day as the temperature changes. You cannot get a proper "hourglass" shape of caulking without a backer rod or poly tape. Very important to have the caulk bond on the sides, not the back as some just fill it up. Leave a 3/16" gap there and use some 3/8" backer rod before caulking, pushing it in as explained: pp. 30: Exterior Siding, Trim & Finishes - Google Books

pp. 35: Architectural detailing: function ... - Google Books

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After you pull that window to re-flash the bottom: Installing and Flashing Windows Correctly - Fine Homebuilding Article

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Gary
 
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Old 10-07-10, 03:53 PM
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Thanks for all the help so far. I've gotten the bottom and one of the side pieces off so far. That's when I ran into the rot on the OSB. How do I handle this one?



Below is the bottom corner

 
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Old 10-08-10, 04:01 AM
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So laying in bed this morning, I thought some more about this. I ran out of sunlight so this might change when I get the top piece of trim off. For looking though it did not appear that the rot made it that high. Since there is no house wrap, what if I covered all the area under the trim with window flashing tape. This would effectively make it all water proof if water got underneath wouldn't it?

Gary,
Are you suggesting I rip cut the board to make an bigger gap for the caulk? Since I have vinyl window, trim, then j channel, do you recommend a 3/16" gap on both sides?

I just wanted to thank you guys again for this help. I'd be lost otherwise.

Thanks again guys I really appreciate it.
 
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Old 10-08-10, 05:37 AM
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Adding flashing tape will be better than nothing, but it will obviously only protect a small area. If water gets behind, it will just rot the OSB somewhere else. For instance, with no housewrap, you might find another rotton spot below the side j-channels. Your flashing tape is also supposed to be used in conjunction with a housewrap- lapping over the housewrap on bottom and lapping under it on top. With no housewrap, there is no guarantee that the flashing tape will be able to do its job, keeping water out that is running down the wall. but it is a good idea to put it on at this time. Just be sure its lapped correctly to shed water.

People who don't use felt or housewrap behind siding should be locked up.
 
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Old 10-08-10, 07:45 AM
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The way it laps with the house wrap makes sense. I should also do the flashing tape from the bottom up correct. That way there will be no "lips" for the water to catch in. Is there any value in also adding a layer of metal flashing underneath? Will the water just flow down the protecto wrap if it makes it under the trim again?? Is there anything else you suggest I do while I have the trim off? Will putting the protecto wrap over the delaminated OSB going to trap moisture? It seems to be dry.
 
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Old 10-08-10, 10:25 AM
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yes, start from the bottom up. In order to do a better job of flashing, you would have to remove some siding and j-channel, and I'm not sure if you're willing to go that far.

One thing you can do is flash the bottom corners of the windows so that any water that gets behind the siding is directed back out as soon as possible. That was discussed in this recent post.

The window flashing tape "can" trap water, so that's always a possibility. But if you remove that top trim and can get to some solid OSB that you can tell has not been wet, you shouldn't have much to worry about. If you see a pathway that water has been following, say from a window or roof line above, then you should probably investigate that too.
 
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Old 10-08-10, 05:45 PM
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I ran out of sunlight again. Managed to get the other side trim down and the delamintation is far worse on the other side. More pics tomorrow when I get the top piece off.
 
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Old 10-09-10, 11:29 AM
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I feel like Mike Holmes now. I pulled the last two pieces off and the rot is through to the stud. To top if off, I found out I'm being sent out on business next week so I need to get it water tight by Sunday night. XSleeper does your advice still stand in terms of covering all exposed wood with flashing tape? If I get the tape up, will it be okay to leave it for the week and finish the trim next weekend? It's suppose to rain here one day during the week. Is the silver above the window flashing tape? It has like a tar underneath it. Also manged to take a peek at the drip cap above the time. Surprise, its not tapped down.

 
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Old 10-09-10, 11:54 AM
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In terms of a repair, I only plan on being in this house an additional 7-10 years. I however don't want to leave a total mess for the next owner of the house.
 
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Old 10-09-10, 08:34 PM
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Yeah, if you are worried about the depression in the osb, it would probably make the most sense to just level it out with some material so that there isn't a big dip there. Bondo or Durham's Rock Hard Putty come to mind. Smooth it out as best as you can so that you're not leaving any ridges or bumps, and don't put it on too thick. Once that repair is dry, just tape it up to make it weather tight. The top layer is most likely a flashing tape of some sort. MFM was one that looked shiny like that. You could just omit the top flashing for the time being.

All that water damage must have come from the unsealed joint between the top and side trim pieces, huh?

IMO the Pella flashing tape that you can get at lowe's is superior to Protecto Wrap. Seems like I wasn't impressed with Protecto Wrap's stickiness in cool weather, if I recall correctly.
 
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Old 10-15-10, 03:38 PM
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I'm back home and managed to get the house water tight before I left. I called the builder and they are going to come look at it. If it was a poor install, they have agreed to replace the OSB, flash, and install new trim. I'll keep you guys posted.
 
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Old 10-15-10, 04:02 PM
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What was poor about it was not putting on any felt paper or housewrap on the entire house.
 
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Old 10-17-10, 07:38 PM
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Totally agree. They are a big builder in town and they are now house wrapping the houses in the three new subdivisions I've driven past. It's a second generation company now and their subs had a reputation of cutting corners in the past. I think they are trying to have more control over things now. When I did call the service department, the guy didn't sound too surprised about the problem I was having or saying what they would do/wouldn't do in fixing it
 
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Old 10-19-10, 11:05 AM
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I spoke with the service manager on the phone today and they are coming out Thursday to fix the window. He mentioned that I did a good job making the window weather tight. Any suggestions on what I should have them address to make it a proper fix? I am going to ask that they flash tape the flashing above the window. I have a picture of the job I did that I will upload when I get home from work.
 
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Old 10-19-10, 03:45 PM
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Well... it's amazing that they are coming out. They must be worried about a class action suit or something. LOL

I'd suggest they remove the siding all the way around the window and tape window flashing tape around the entire window perimeter. Whether they will do that or not is another thing.

If they find housewrap around the majority of the window, that's good news. If there is no housewrap on the house at all, I would (as a homeowner) let them know I was *very* unhappy about that.

The places to worry about when there is no housewrap on a home are the bottom corners on every window, and the sheathing immediately below each window. (basically the bottom of any j-channel, including any above/along a roofline) Someone who works with the stuff every day could unzip, check, and rezip the siding below each window in 60 seconds just to give you some peace of mind. I would ask them to check below every window if you find missing housewrap anywhere. Not to make trouble, but since they are there.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:48 AM
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Trim is installed. They were happy with my bondo and flashing job. They also caulked the half round opening to the attic that I had above the window.

I used social networking to my advantage on this one. I e-mailed the builders on Facebook and also posted pictures to my page and a public web album. Since they still build in the area it was easier for them to fix the trim then deal with the negative press.

I sent you a PM XSleeper.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:01 PM
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Sounds like you did a nice job. Probably a good thing you caught it and did some repairs before it got even worse.
 
 

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