Hello,

I have very drafty, 20 times painted, steel casement windows in Tucson, AZ. They are steel or some iron compound (magnet sticsk to it).

Most of the windows are in the vicinity of 72 wide by 36 inches tall three body (from left to right: left hindged, fixed pane, right hindged).

The windows are installed in a solid brick wall (exposed brick outside, plaster and a wire mess on the inside). The wall is about 8 inches thick. The windows are not centered in the wall, are about 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches from teh brick ouside and 4-1/2 and 4-3/4 inches from the plaster inside. The metal frame of the window seems to have be "burried" into the wall at about 1 to 1-1/2 deep all around. The frame sticks out into the masonry opening about 1/2 inch.

I have priced retrofit vinyl and aluminum and masonry (or pocket/block windows) that have NO nail fin. The later ones are much cheaper and ship faster.

Finally my questions:
1) Tucson gets up to 115 F degree weather with tons of sunlight, would Al. windows be a better choice?

2) If I construct a "buck frame" in hte 3-1/4 inch deep "pocket" will I be able to leave the steel frame (remove casements, hinges, and fixed panes) and slide masonry windows into the opening? (sounds so simple I can do it and is much cheaper ~150 cheaper per window, the window coverings would not have to be removed, etc) If so, how and with what wood should I make the buck frame?

Some pictures to illustrate the posting:

 

Am from the right coast, but I understand you have some very demanding conditions where windows are concerned. From the pic I see you do indeed have a full brick wall construction. I would guess 4" brick, and 4" block on the inside, with furring strips for the plaster lath??? I have done vinyl windows in similar construction here, but not sure how vinyl holds up in 115deg weather. My best suggestion would be wood. And glass options include some high tech heat screens. This old frames will be tough to get out, and fitting a new window with nail fins is tougher. Probably easier to install a wood frame as a nailer. Most of our construction like yours only has wood blocks set into the cinder block, not a frame. I sometimes use the old frames as a buck for new windows, but not sure what is correct for your climate.

 

You may have the right idea with leaving the frame in place on that one. Sometimes those steel frames got slugged with cement and are a real *&$@! to get out. IMO, unless there is some sort of a strange contour on the window that you need to fill in to achieve a flat jamb surface... adding the wood to the frame is a waste of time and energy, and only serves to make the glass area smaller.

In a situation like you have, I'd suggest you put the window right into the existing frame (once you remove the sashes and cut off the dividers flush with the head and sill) predrilling some pilot holes and screwing the new window right to the metal frame with self-drilling screws. Go with a window that is custom sized (obviously) and has optional metal frame expander (snaps into the groove around the window) so that once the window is installed, you can just trim the frame expander to the right size and snap it onto the bottom, sides and top, then seal it to the brick.

I'm also leary of vinyl windows in Arizona. I got a brother in law in Tucson.

 

Thanks for your posting !

The frame is burried into the brick. I made a small kitchen remodel and when I removed the backsplash near the window I could see the whole construction of the wall. So to remove the frame would involve to at least remove 1 inch of the brick/plaster around teh window frame creating a huge mess. So the frame is staying in for sure hehe.

Once I remove everything I can from the old window (casements, hinges, operator, fixed panes etc), the only thing remaining will be a 1/2inch lip of the old steel frame all around the brick opening.

Since I have more than 3 inches from the brick outside to the frame I was planning on installing the windows from the outside all the way until the new window hits the old steel frame and screw them directly into the brick. I do have a very steep sil (the angled brick) for which I dont know what to do (maybe the frame expander you mentioned).

I found this instructions:
http://www.intlwindow.com/pdf/instal...blockframe.pdf
But I am a little confused on what the sil flashing and pan are. Will this come with the window or is something I have to build using stuff I can get at Home Depot or Lowes ?

 

If water gets in around your window for some reason, a pan flashing has an interior lip that acts like a dam, preventing water from overflowing into the home. The way you are going to be installing the windows I don't think it's possible to use a pan flashing. But you might be able to make something similar out of aluminum trim coil. That PDF explains it all... figure 6 will be a side view similar to what you will want to do, where the words "sill condition" would actually be the sill of your steel windows once the sashes are removed.

Your statement, "the only thing remaining will be a 1/2inch lip of the old steel frame all around the brick opening." followed by, "Since I have more than 3 inches from the brick outside to the frame"... confuses me. They seem to contradict each other.

I don't believe any of the big box stores sell pan flashings and they definately will not come with your windows. Your steel windows likely have a lip on the interior edge that will act like a pan flashing, so you might not even have to worry about that. But when you remove your dividers it will probably leave a hole in the sill that your window will need to cover. I'd probably fill the hole with foam, trim it flush, and put some bondo over it or something if you are worried about it leaking.

 

Thank you for your reply.

I was thinking the same thing about the sill pan and the steel frame.

I am sorry for the confusion with the measurements. Here is an annotated picture of the window opening:

As you can see, if from the outside I measure the distance from the brick surface of the exterior wall to the steel frame of the current window it will measure from 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches (varies from window to window) So if we think of the opening of the window as a cube (a rectangular one hehe) the cube would be 72" wide, 36" high and 3-1/4" deep.
The one thing that worries me is that my "window sill" is that angled (downward) row of brick you can see in the picture highlighted so i dont know how the frame of the new window would accomodate. Another thing is that I dont know if the 3-1/4" deep is enough to accomodate the window.

I will take a "cross section" picture of the window tomorrow and will post.

Again thank you very much for your time.


Juan

 

I think you are thinking of it differently than I am. It sounds like you are thinking of installing your new window against the EXTERIOR of the steel window frame. I would suggest you remove the "guts" of the window and then install your new window INSIDE the old frame, so that it will be as close to the interior edge of that steel frame as possible. Depending on how you size the window, you could probably even install the window at a level even FARTHER in, so that the exterior of your new window will not stick out any farther than the exterior of your current steel window frame. The frame expander I suggested would cover all the exterior edges, and IMO it would be nice if it would lay flat on your existing window frame. The brick sill is not a problem if done that way.

 

I now see what you are saying. So I would have to size a window to fit inside the steel frame. I would have to then scrape very well the putty that holds the fixed panes against it too. Isn't that frame to thin? the frame is about 3/4 to 1 inch deep only, will a window fit in there leaving a lot of its frame overhanging ?

The cross section pics I promised:
From above (looking down to the angled brick outside)


From the side:

 

I think you are getting the picture, but still aren't quite there yet. Your snapshots are great.

You will need to remove the sashes that crank out. Once you do that, the fixed panel will be left. You will probably need to break the glass out of the fixed panel. You "could" scrape the putty out, but it's kind of pointless since it's probably going to break anyway. It would be much faster to just tape the glass up with a roll of duct tape, lay drop cloths down on both the inside and outside, put some thick gloves on and eye protection and then cut that center vertical piece of steel (cutting it at the ends so that it is flush with the rest of the frame) with a reciprocating saw. This will completely open up the window frame so that you no longer have 2 or 3 individual sections... you will have one big opening. You can then install a common mulled window unit of any type.

I'm suggesting you install it right over the top of the steel frame, flush with the exterior of your existing window, and it will stick in farther than it currently does on the interior. If your new window is about 1/4" smaller than the smallest width and height of your metal framed opening, it should fit inside the metal frame nicely without too much play. You would need to shim it to the interior masonry wall opening on all sides with shims, and the new window would likely be anchored to the interior block wall with tapcons. You'll be omitting any type of pan flashing on this type of install. Frame expander covers any gap around the window on the exterior side. The gap around the window on the interior side of the window edges would need to be covered with some type of trim.

I agree with Just Bill, a wood window (or an aluminum window with a wood jamb) would probably work best in that opening, since you could nail your interior wood trim to the wood window jamb.

 

Lets see if I am understanding. Forgetting for a sec if the window is wood, vinyl, al. or a mix. My windows openings, after I remove everything I can of the old windows will look like this: (side view)
Fig.1

The frame is very small. Note that the frame is deeper in the header.

I was originally thinking the following:
Fig. 2


But you are suggesting the following:

Fig 3.


The drawing was to scale but after the multiple conversions and compressions it looks a little screwed up. I tried to color code the measurements.

My concern with Fig 3. is that the frame lip on which the new window is resting is very very thin (less than 1/4") and that lip is extremely strong too (I tried to cut one with a reciprocating saw and a blade for metal and the blade broke without leaveing a dent on the frame). I might be wrong in my understanding of your posting.

In Fig 2. I was just thinking of flushing the frame with wood and install the window flush with the outside.

In all Figs. I asumed a window to be 3.25-3.5 inches deep (frame) . I measured all my windows and they are min 3.25"from the brick and a max of 3.75" from the brick.

Thanks for all your help and I apologize since I usually call the things by the wrong name which could be leading to confusion. (Thats why the tons of pics )

Juan

 

Yes, figure 3 is closest, but I would try to install the window even farther to the interior than what you have pictured. If it was me, I'd make the exterior of the new window flush with the exterior of your existing steel window frame... not centered on it. This would leave less room for the blinds, but the width of the blinds was not part of my equation. I would think they could always be mounted on the face of the wall or inside a box valance.

You definately do NOT want your new window to be anywhere close to being flush with the face of your brick facade. Normally the face of the window is about 3 1/2" back from the face of the brick (just like it is now). This backset acts like a drip edge so that water from above can drip off the brick, and not run down the face of the window.

 

Ok so Fig 4 shows what you describe.
Fig 4.:

Now that we are on the same page...
How can I attach the new window to the old steel case. The window seems to have to balance over that very thin (1/8") lip. Or just installing screws thru the new window's frame into the brick behind the old steel frame will be enough?

Thanks

Juan

 

Correct. You won't attach it to the steel frame, it will just sit inside of it. Shims will be inserted on the inside to support the frame and keep it straight, so the shims will need to be the same height as the steel frame. Screws will hold the new window in. You will need to drill pilot holes through the new window's frame and into the cement block with a hammer drill / rotary hammer and then attach the window with Tapcon cement screws. A 5/32" bit works well with the 1/4" screws. The screw will need to be long enough to go into at least 1" of concrete.

You likely have 4" of brick veneer on top of a 4" CMU (cement block wall) so those screws will be going into the cement blocks.

 

Ok so a shim is as long (or wide) the steel window is and flush with the lip. What wood should I use ? The ceiling, beams, kitchen cabinets were all made with pine (since 1961). Can I use pine?

We opened a hole for a pipe under a sink from inside to the outside, the wall was brick throughtout at 2.5' from the finished floor. If that were to be the case, that shouldn't be a problem right ?

Thanks again,

Juan

 

The shims you use around the window will all be hidden, so they type of wood really doesn't matter too much. They are placed underneath and around the window, and then the "indoor trim" you have pictured will cover them all up. Usually window shims are sold in packs- 1 1/4" wide pieces of tapered cedar, like a narrow wood shingle. You stack up as many shims as is needed to fill the space. But in your case you might just want to use some small pieces of plywood that will be the right thickness... or even rip some pieces of scrap lumber down to the right size. For instance, if you need a shim that is 7/8" thick, just rip some wood down to 7/8 and use that. Or if you need shims that are 1/2" thick, use some 1/2" plywood as your shim. Cut small pieces (1 1/4" wide, and maybe 2 or 3" long that can be inserted around the window without getting in the way of your "indoor trim". Shims are usually placed near each corner of the window frame, and then at 16 to 24" intervals around the perimeter of the frame, as needed.

 

Ok, I think I have as much info as I can get to order one window (first to try then the rest).

Thank you again for all your time. I will probably start a thread about 1960s steel sliding patio door replacement soon (those are so drafty the curtains blow away from them at night hehe)

Juan

 

Sounds good, Juan. Be sure you measure accurately, and that you get the window about 1/4" smaller than the smallest interior dimension of your steel window frame. You want the window window to be just a little loose so that it fits easily. Like you mentioned, that lip is pretty hard to cut, so either the window will fit or it won't! Good luck!

 

Hi. Hope you don't mind my butting in. I just saw your post and was wondering if you've installed your window yet and, if so, what kind of window you chose and how the installation went.

We are in Tucson too and my husband and I would LOVE to lose our single-pane casement windows.

Thanks in advance!
Wendy

 

Goldeneye08,

Hi, I'd like to add a "me too" to Wendy's request.

I'm here in Tucson with the same issues - double brick construction with old casements that don't even close properly, broken locks, cranks that don't work.

I have spoken to a window replacement contractor and they were pretty confident that my casement windows could be easily removed steel frame and all and replaced with new ones. My house was built in 1952 so maybe they didn't start burying the steel frames in the wall till later when your house was built??? Or perhaps they have some way of getting the frames out by cutting the steel frame and pulling it up out of the slot in the wall.....

Regardless, replacement is going to run approximately $750 per opening for two-window casement replacement with labor.

I would like to explore two other options:

1) Rehabilitation, which this PDF makes seem so easy (yeah right): ftp://phoenix.gov/pub/HISTORIC/steel.pdf

2) Replacing the windows myself using the plan you have drawn in figure 4 below (nice drawing by the way).

So please do come back and let us know how it goes for you when you do your test window, I bet there are others out there who are interested as well.

Good Luck.

 

Hello,

Thank you for your comments,
I havent started with the windows since some family visited and it was so cold the past month. I will probably tackle one window in a week or two, I will most certainly post pics.

Thanks,

Juan

 

[QUOTE=goldeneye08;1502542]Ok so Fig 4 shows what you describe.
Fig 4.:

Now that we are on the same page...
How can I attach the new window to the old steel case. The window seems to have to balance over that very thin (1/8") lip. Or just installing screws thru the new window's frame into the brick behind the old steel frame will be enough?

Thanks

Juan[/QUOTE


Can you send me those pictures?

 

Hi Goldeneye88, it sounds like you have the same type of construction and windows as my house.
I am just starting to look into what my options are for replacement. Could you send your pics via Email?
(wsteffen@comcast.net)
I have heard one comment that some contractors take out the old steel frames by cutting through the
outside of the frame and colapsing it inward. Looking at my windows, this looks like it could be quite
messy. What do you think?

 

I am so sorry that the images are not available anymore. The site that hosts them must have changed the URL scheme. Please follow the following link:

View Album - Casement Window Replacement Planning

Please let me know if you are successfull.

Update on the project: I havent done it yet. Between family visits, work, travel, pool pump motor replacements and if you want to laugh:
http://forum.doityourself.com/wells-...ml#post1570482
have kept me quite busy

I will most certainly tackle a window of two by the beginning of Fall. Is 100+ deg F here already so I dont want to do that just now.

Thanks

Juan

 

I reloaded this page from a "bookmark" I made and the photos/diagrams showed up! Your windows look very much like mine. I have the opposite weather conditions from yours (I am in the Denver area) so it's getting to
the season where Window/outside work can be done. After searching the web, I am torn between trying to "refurbish" my windows or do the replacement. BTW my construction is brick and cinder block. I am still researching this subject.

 

Some great responses and advice. I hope I can get some advice along the same topic.

I'm replacing a casement windows (mainly 48x36) in a block wall that has a brick exterior. I will be removing the entire frame of the old window and was planning on using a replacement window without a nailing fin. But after looking at it further, the interior rough opening of the existing wood buck is smaller than the exterior brick opening by about 1.5 inches on all sides. This would leave me enough room to use a window with a nailing fin. So my question; should I flash and use a stnd no nailing fin replacement window or go with the window wiht a nailing fin and then flash over the nailing fin? Alternatively, can I remove the existing wood buck to give a larger interior rough opening that would be the same size as the brick opening and install a larger window (no nailing fin, no wood buck, just the window sitting in the cement block opening? )

 

pshomestead,

I'd suggest you measure the finished masonry opening on the exterior and get the window 4 1/4" narrower, and 3 3/4" shorter than the opening is tall. This will allow for a 1 1/4" sill nose on the bottom of the window along with some room for some slope, and 2" brickmould on the sides and top. You'll leave the existing woodbuck and install a window with a nailing fin. The wood buck gives you something to nail your interior trim to.

If you don't want / need interior trim then yes, you could probably rip the woodbuck out and order a window that is 1/4" smaller than the masonry opening and then just shim it in place, anchor it with tapcons, and caulk the perimeter on both sides with a good polyurethane sealant.

You might also push the "new post" button when posting a new question. It's one of the options available when you are browsing the sub-forums. Welcome to our little group!

 

I installed the windows this weekend and everything went smoothly. I went with new construction windows with a nailing fin. Completely removed the old windows, leaving the old buck in place. The new window slide right into the old buck after adding a 1x on the bottom of the buck to properly center everything. Looks great.

 

I have a house full of these old steel casements mounted into cinder block. I took the time to clean and repaint the downstairs but they are starting to rust through the paint pretty quickly so our next remodel project will include replacement (just one bathroom).

What did you learn during your replacement? Any advice or warnings? Can you post some final pictures?

Many Thanks - Eric

 

I hope this thread didn't dry up completely: I have lots of these steel casement windows in an old home in Sacramento. The home's exterior is stucco (and I don't want to mess with that). The interior is drywall. The windows are covered with several layers of heavy old paints and rust leaks through....they look like crap...in the winter they act like the most efficient water condensers in the world...the condensation runs down the windows...ruins the operators and puddles on the sill and gets moldly if not regularly wiped up. These windows gotta go!! And the project must be DIY! Money is tight. It looks like there are a number of others who have these nasty windows but only one...maybe two...on this thread that have done anything about it. So, who besides pshomestead has done a DIY replacement project on these steel beasties??
To pshomestead :
Congrats on doing it!! Did you take pictures during your replacement process? What type windows were your replacements (wood, wood - Al, dble hung, side sliders? May I ask what price was paid for the replacement (a specific size would be helpful for comparison purposes)? If a national company built your windows, who was it and would you use them again?

I think figure 4 is the way to go in my house.

Any one out there? Please :helpme 2:.
Thanks, Keppie

 

Here's a link to a how-to guide for restoring steel casement windows: http://www.coloradohistory-oahp.org/.../pubs/1143.pdf. It cost the homeowner $360/window to hire a professional. The professional stripped old paint from the frames and sashes, ground down rust, straightened frames, reglazed all glass with new putty and painted the restored steel casements with oil-paint. You don't have all those problems, so your job is much easier than that.

Steel windows are built to last. Throwing them away is a mistake. The original poster's problem was that the windows leaked because they had too many coats of paint. All the OP had to do was strip the paint and repaint with new oil or alkyd paint, not latex. If you paint steel with latex (which is water based), it will rust. With only one coat of paint, his sash and frames would have closed flush and tight again just like the day they were installed.

If you have condensation on your steel windows, the humidity level in your house is too high. The hot humid air hits cold steel and the water condenses like on a glass of lemonade in the summer. If you can't control your humidity level install storm windows on the outside side of your steel casement windows. That might tip the balance so your steel windows are the same temperature of the room air instead of the outside temperature. If room temperature and steel temperature are the same, you can't have condensation.

Bottom line: you can DIY your steel windows.

 

P.S. I live in a 1960s building with original steel casements. Our condo Board chose a Solomonic approach: unit owners could replace their steel caesments at their own expense for new fiberglass sliders. The people who chose new sliders that "jump the frame," i.e. were installed over the steel frame that was left in place, have had nothing but problems. Half the replacement windows have had repeat callbacks.

On the other hand, I stripped by casement windows of 3 coats of paint, repainted with an exterior quality alkyd based paint from Pittsburgh paint. I spent less than a tenth of the people who paid for replacement windows, I dramatically reduced the drafts in my casements, and they look great. Lots better than the fat replacement sliders that don't work.

 

They come out of the double red brick mortar rather easily. Plan ahead to fabricate a temporary wood window to plug opening. For a basic 26" X 53" bedroom window 3/8" plywood boardered with firing strips works pretty good (quick, cheap and easy, just 5 pieces of wood total). Don't build it first, just get the materials ready. Once constructed, the temporary wood window plug will be exactly the size of the new window you will order except for the thickness. Take careful measurements outside at several places horozontal and vertical from brick to brick on the sides, and steel header to brick window sill - top to bottom. Bricks are most likely uneven here and there. You can not use the size of the old nasty steelcase frame because it was installed before and durring the brick-up process. Masons did not worry too much about a few uneven bricks surrounding it. Temporary wood window plug will be a tad smaller in order to navagate the uneven bricks when its put into the opening from the outside. Temporary window plug also gives you comfort and takes the "hurry-up" problem away. Go inside and Use utility knife - cut the depth of the blade all around the inside of metal frame where it meets the plaster, tile, or whatever. Duct tape all the glass, at least on one side. Remove the hinged openings using a Sawsall with a fine metal cutting blade. Hinges cut easily releasing the sections of the windows that open out. Be carefull not to crush or damage the soft red bricks and exterior window sill (duct tape and cardboard for protection). Next, remove the taped up glass with rubber mallot. If you taped them good there will not be any broken glass to clean up. Stripped metal frame will now show some vertical and horozontal steel dividers. Use Sawsall and cut through at least one vertical and horozontal divider. Find the 4 pan-head machine screws (2 on each side of the metal frame), and remove them. Chip out old glazing to find them (look about 6" from the corners of the frame on the left and right sides). You have to lift the pan head as you turn the screws out because there is a loose (floating) 10/24 machine nut hidder behind them. Gently pry, wiggle, turn, turn, and they should come out eventually. These are the screws that secure the metal frame to the metal flanges that are embeded into the mortar on both sides. Next, use Sawsall to cut through the bottom rail of the metal window frame (somewhere comfortable near the center of the opening. Entire steelcase metal frame should now be wiggly and removable. Slight prying and extra care when removing frame on sides where embeded flanges are. Once the main steel frame is removed, you can tap and wiggle the steel flanges from the mortar. Next, cleanup rough opening, and re-mortar (cement mixed with fine sand) all cracks and gaps.

 

Hopefully you got minimal damage to the plaster surounding the window on the inside, and mess was minimal if you remembered to tape up opening with thick plastic sheet. Now construct the temporary plywood and firing strip window. Take care to make it perfectly square. First cut the sheet of plywood, and test-fit into the opening from the outside. Once satisified with the perfectly square piece of plywood, frame it all the way around with firring strips screwed perpendicular to the flat sheet. This shoud give you some thickness to your protype (mock-up). New replacement window will probably be an inch or two thicker, but this temporay unit gives you an idea of how easily the new window will fit when installed from the outside. The temporay wood unit can be held in place with a few wooden wedges or shims and provide shelter from the elements. Now you also have the exact measurements for the new replacement window. Dressing the rough opening to accomodate the new window can now be done at your leisure until your new window is installed.

Perhaps this will be helpfull to those who are wanting to wage the war on nasty steelcase windows.