My Hurd Windows Ice Badly...What to do?


  #1  
Old 01-14-09, 12:45 PM
R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: iowa
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
My Hurd Windows Ice Badly...What to do?

Hey anyone...everyone,

Please give me some good advice.
I built my house and moved in 2002.
It just turned 2009 so the windows are only 6-7 years old.
I keep window shades up, but they still ice like crazy.
Hurd tells me I have too much humidity.
I take my tester and go to my friends' houses and their humidity is same range as mine.
They have a little condensation but I have 1/2" of ice.

Look at the vids I shot and the pics I took please and
give me some advice. Hurd says it is my problem.

http://www.coachhamilton.com/hurd-windows.html

Thanks for your help

Coach
 
  #2  
Old 01-14-09, 01:09 PM
XSleeper's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 26,181
Received 1,698 Upvotes on 1,523 Posts
Provided you are correct about the humidity level, and you don't have a humid basement or an HVAC/combustion problem with your furnace, it looks like air infiltration around the sash is causing the majority of the icing.

I notice that all the windows you have pictured are casements. Do you have any Hurd windows that are NOT casements in your home? Does every window have the exact same sort of icing? I'm thinking the windows have poor weatherstripping, and are not "top of the line".
 
  #3  
Old 01-14-09, 01:17 PM
R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: iowa
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
The only window that is not casement is the sliding patio doors and they have little condensation and they never have ice. That is why I'm so mad. How can windows with a much larger surface area have little condensation and no ice when the casement windows all ice?
 
  #4  
Old 01-14-09, 01:32 PM
XSleeper's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 26,181
Received 1,698 Upvotes on 1,523 Posts
That's why I'm assuming it's a weatherstripping problem, not a glass problem. Not sure what kind of weatherstrip those windows have, (maybe just a fin around the sash, that gaps open at the corners... and maybe there's a rubber gasket around the stop, that the sash closes against) but the weatherstrip on the patio door is completely different by design.

Has a Hurd service rep actually visited your home? And have your windows done this every winter when it's 0F for 7 years?
 
  #5  
Old 01-14-09, 01:39 PM
R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: iowa
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
There is a single rubber seal that is supposed to seal the wood when the window closes. I like you, think it is not sealing correctly. That is evidenced by the ice on the wood where the window closes up against the frame.

But...how do I convince Hurd that it is a window problem? They keep telling me to keep my window shades up, & to make sure to get air flowing over the windows.

I think it is pathetic that I have to run box fans to keep ice off the windows.

I don't know what to do to fix the problem.
 
  #6  
Old 01-14-09, 01:57 PM
XSleeper's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 26,181
Received 1,698 Upvotes on 1,523 Posts
Well... I know nothing will stick to a cold icy gasket, and today and tomarrow probably aren't ideal days to be working on a window but for a few bucks you could try getting some weatherstrip tape (rubber or foam), and experiment with adding an additional layer on top of your existing gasket. Perhaps that would help seal the sash up as you bring it closed and lock it.

I'm thinking something similar to this:



Image credit: DoitBest

Additionally, the area where the crank is happens to be practically impossible to seal well, especially if there is no "fin" weatherstrip attached to the casement sash itself. Perhaps some open cell foam could be stuffed around the gear box under the wood trim to help slow air movement in this area.

Another idea would be to actually caulk a couple of your windows shut and see if you see any improvement in the icing. If they are caulked shut that should eliminate the possibility of air infiltration causing the icing. I'd recommend a product like DAP Seal-n-peel, which is a temporary caulking that can be easily removed.
 
  #7  
Old 01-14-09, 02:03 PM
B
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 9,453
Received 47 Upvotes on 43 Posts
Hi Rick, I may not say what you want, but I'll do my best to contribute to a solution. It is doubtful that all of the windows you have shown are defective, so either they are just poor windows or something else is wrong. So I'll try to help you sort it out.

You say you and your neighbors homes are running about the same RH. The key is relative. 40% RH at 70 degrees is more moisture than 40% RH at 65 degrees, so you have to think about temperature as well.

Insulation? The temperature within the house and the temperature right next to the window can be a lot different. You can burn some extra fuel and keep a poorly insulated home very comfortable. The difference will be the center of house temp vs the wall temp. Now from what I can see in your pictures Iím certain you feel your home is well insulated, however, that doesnít always reflect the work that was actually done during construction. A good place to check would be a window where you can pull the trim. Check to see how well insulated the window is around the frame. The best insulation, is one of the non-expanding foam products. I like DAP as it is truly zero expansion. Cold air leaking through the construction around your windows will make them colder, even if they are good windows.

Where is the heat source? Windows over a kitchen sink or counter are isolated from convecting heat and subject to extra moisture. Place your RH meter on the window sill and watch it go up. By example, at the window surface it is 100%, so ease it away and give it time to adjust and see what the humidity is as you move away. Do the same at your neighbors. Obviously their temperatures and RH are different. Observe all of your problem windows and their natural exposure to heat.

The chances are, as they are trying to tell you, it is not the windows, at least a defect in the windows. If they are plain glass double pane and your neighbors are argon filled with a low-e coating there will be a difference. When yours were installed, did they give you the U-value and talk about how they were built. Here is a link from the Hurd web site showing the temp and humidity that will result in condensation for different windows. Window Condensation Chart

To measure or calculate the performance of your windows to have some ground to stand on, I would suggest you contact an experienced building inspector or energy auditor.

Good luck. They look like nice windows and itís a shame they are not performing well.

Bud
 
  #8  
Old 01-14-09, 03:14 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 3,994
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Hurd makes some of the best insulated windows on the market. Not sure what type glass you have but they should not ice in Iowa, no matter what the interior humidity(within reason). You probably need to get past the local people, and go to corporate.
 
  #9  
Old 01-14-09, 03:34 PM
R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: iowa
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Thanks Bud...for your response.

When I put the windows in, the lumber yard that sold them to me said to put a foam caulking in, which I did. I insulated 6" walls very well. Plastic and everything.

It does make sense with humidity as the plasic i put over the bedroom windows has pretty much stopped that moisture.

Will a dehumidifier solve the problem? I heard that if I get the humidity too low, my wood cabinet doors, etc., could crack. Is there truth to that?
 
  #10  
Old 01-14-09, 05:38 PM
R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: iowa
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I have really been struggling with this.

My sliding patio doors are all glass and in the same room as the other windows.
I get a little (not much) condensation only...no ice.

I know when I put the windows in that I insulated around them very well. I put foam like the sellers of the window told me.

I just struggle with ice building up at the crack where the window closes. It is all wood there and ice still forms. You can't tell me air isn't leaking.

I would buy a humidifier if I knew it would solve the problem however, these windows are 6-7 years old, and I am like Bill, these windows should not be doing this.

My neighbors across the street have hurd windows. Their houses are 2 years older than mine. They have condensation but when I showed them the ice on my windows, they freaked out. They have never had anything like that.
 
  #11  
Old 01-14-09, 07:45 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,047
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Upvote on 1 Post
Do you have a whole house humidifier that is contributing to humidity? Are you running kitchen vent/fan during and after cooking to exhaust humidity. Are you running vent/fan during showering/bathing and at least 20 min. afterwards to exhaust humidity?

What is the humidity level in your home?

You say, "It does make sense with humidity as the plasic i put over the bedroom windows has pretty much stopped that moisture." This tends to indicate, as already pointed out, that there is cold air infiltration around windows.
 
  #12  
Old 01-14-09, 07:46 PM
B
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 9,453
Received 47 Upvotes on 43 Posts
The tool I always fall back on is my Infrared Camera, it can see things we can't. Work on the humidity to get it down below 35%. The problem may turn out to be you built your house too well. Most homes have to run humidifiers in the winter because they leak so much air. But when too tight, you have to dehumidify or exchange air with the outside, HRV or ERV. To determine if your home is too tight will require a blower test, again the energy auditor.

Letís look at the humidity for a moment. Any moisture in the basement? When you run the shower, you should run the exhaust fan for an extra 30 minutes to eliminate moisture (they have a switch with a delayed off just for that). Any mold problems, bathroom or other? Are bath and kitchen fans vented to the outside? Is the dryer vented to the outside and make sure it is connected? Do you dry cloths inside? Cook a lot? Indoor plants? Fish tanks? Water leaks? A dozen kids , Iím trying? Dirt crawl spaces or floors in basement?

Bottom line is, you want the problem to go away, whether that is a solution or help from Hurd. Start by reducing the humidity either through household changes, mechanical ventilation, or a dehumidifier. At some point, the condensation and ice has to stop and it will. Determine where that point is. Talk to a good energy auditor. They have the tools and hopefully the experience, to document what is wrong and advise what to do. Talk to Hurd and do what they say, didnít they say to reduce the humidity. My advice, stop the internet attack, pressure like that will only harden any good will adjustment or warranty adjustment from Hurd. Document everything, just in case, but donít post it for a few more years .

Were I closer, I would swing by with my camera, but you are half a country away.
Bud
 
  #13  
Old 01-15-09, 12:57 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
i have the same problem!!

I was just looking for advice on this SAME problem and found this posting. I live in Wisconsin and my Hurd windows (all casement, like yours) are doing the exact same thing. One day when it wasn't quite so cold I blasted an oscillating fan on the windows that I cared most about (the biggest ones, hence the most expensive if they have to be replaced) and that helped a bit. For a few days I tried unlatching the windows to let a little air leak out but that didn't help. (That also seems stupid, considering how cold it is here today!)

I talked with the previous owner (I just moved in this past summer) and he said they never had the same problem. He thought it could be that I keep the house warmer than he and his wife did, or that we have more people in it now (plus two big dogs)--we are all generating humidity or something. The house is 63 years old but has been substantially remodeled, with really good insulation. There is only a crawl space under most of the affected areas, although there is one Hurd window in my bedroom (above another room and very warm) that is doing the same thing.

I am tempted to run the dehumidifier for a day or two to see if that helps but it's already so dry that that seems like a dumb idea.

Anyway, I will let you know if I solve it and I hope you will do the same!
 
  #14  
Old 11-28-09, 10:00 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I also have a couple Hurd casement windows that are leaking air and have a lot of condensation forming. Last winter, the condensation would freeze. The windows that were doing this, I noticed that there was a gap between the window frame and the sash. When I open and close the windows, the sash would hang up on the bottom of the sash where it contacts the plastic ramp that is attached to the frame. The hinge pin of the sash moves and slides over as the window opens to allow for you to wash the outside of the glass from inside of the house. By adjusting the sash, the window should open and close without interference, and therefore close all of the way into the seals/gaskets.

If you open the window all of the way, take a philips screw driver and loosen the screw that holds down the metal slide, closest to the outside of the frame. This is the screw when the sash is closed, the hinge pin is basically over the screw. Once you have the screw loosened, use a penney or nickel to use as a shim under the metal slide next to the small screw that was loosened. Use a small flat bladed screw driver to lift the metal slide strip, then slide the penney or nickel between. This spacer will raise the sash as the window closes and you should find the window closes all of the way without "hanging up" on the plastic ramp.
I just adjusted my windows (almost all of them) a couple of days ago and this worked for me. I had one window that had a gap about 3/16" along the bottom and side, now it closes all of the way without any interference. So far, so good, I haven't had major condensation like I did prior to adjusting the windows and don't feel air leaking. My indoor humidity is around 43%, which is probably on the high side when we get colder nights. I'm waiting for a really cold night to see if this resolved the problem. I will reply with any updates.

Jere
 
  #15  
Old 12-06-09, 07:30 AM
C
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Hurd Icing in Lemont

I have a new townhouse, with Hurd wiindows that ice up badly, every year for 4 years now.
The builder used the humidity excuse, Hurd used the humidity excuse. I do not have a humidifier.
I don't live in a rainforest, I'm 50 years old had 3 other homes this is the only one with this problem.
This year I did something a little too late in the season but it did work!

There is a black foam between the glass and the frame where the icing occurs. I took a thin bead of silicone and went right over the foam. The icing stopped.
The problem is now is too late the glass is cold and there is sweat there from the cold air coming in making contact with the warm air. The silicone won't stick, it must be done in summer with the best silicone money can buy!

These are low quality Hurd windows, but never the less Hurd has a problem which they refuse to fix or frankly Can't fix, unless they give you new windows. I will never buy a HUrd product again. Why should I go around caulking windows like some ghetto resident!
 
  #16  
Old 12-08-09, 12:09 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Hurd window icing problem

I have read the preceding posts and find that I too have the same problem with my Hurd windows. We live in Wyoming and when the temp drops below 20 degrees, the windows form moisture along the bottoms which then turns into ice. We have been told that we need to buy a dehumidifier because our house (build around 2002) is too tight and the moisture we are creating can't get out. I would be happy to do that, but don't know what brand, type, etc. to buy that would work on the house and not just one small area. We have forced air (Carrier) and use a wood pellet stove most days but turn it off at night and keep the temp around 64 degrees. Should we try additional insulation around the windows or does anyone know if the dehumidifier will work?
 
  #17  
Old 12-08-09, 03:42 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 3,994
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I too have followed this thread. My best guess, as a remodeler with 25 yrs experience is, the windows were not probler insulated when installed. Condensation is not abnormal, especially in really cold climates. What is unusual with Hurd windows(IMHO), is freezing condensation. If the surrounding areas of the window frames are not properly insulated, the condensation could freeze, given the temps in Wyo or winter wind whipped Iowa..
 
  #18  
Old 12-19-13, 11:13 AM
O
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Ice build up on Hurd Windows

My Wife and I built a home in 2004 with Hurd alum. clad casement windows. We have experience Ice build up on the inside of the glass at the bottom every year.
But this past summer (2013) I order New weatherstripping, inside and out from Hurd and made the replacements. This replacement weatherstripping (New) from Hurd is a different size and material. Since the replacement of the weatherstripping and watching the indoor Humidity a lot closer. We HAVE NOT experience any Icing on the windows, just small amount of condescension at the bottom inside corners of the glass. I recommend contacting Hurd Widows or the builder of Your Home to order New weatherstripping and replace it.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: