New windows - old vinyl siding trimming?

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  #1  
Old 03-05-11, 05:55 PM
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Arrow New windows - old vinyl siding trimming?

Hi,

We have vinyl siding from the 80's trimmed with aluminum around doors and windows. The windows are old and have to go. In some places we want to change the opening size and install new - not replacement windows, in the new framing.

The new windows will be taller so framing will be easy. The problem is trimming them. The old aluminum goes behind the storm windows onto the wooden framing. When we make new openings, there will be no way to re-attach aluminum.

I don't want to strip all the siding or the styrofoam insulation which is under it and on top of the original shingles.

So how can I put these windows in and keep them watertight? I thought of re-framing them with some form of synthetic wood framing but don't know...

Help please!

Thanks guys.
 
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Old 03-05-11, 08:45 PM
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Well I thought about writing a very long and drawn out reply, but instead I'll ask a question first.

You say that you'll be completely removing the old windows, going with new (windows with nailing fins, I assume) that are taller. My question is, how you you expect to put in this new, taller window WITHOUT removing any siding?

Generally you either want the siding and j-channel to butt right up against the new window (with no exterior trim) meaning your window would probably need to be a LOT bigger in height and width in order to do that -or- you want to plan ahead so that you can have some nice symmetrical trim around your new window after it has been installed. - for instance- a sill nose protruding on bottom and 2" or 4" trim around the sides and top. In either case, you'd want new j-channel around the window (or trim) depending on which route you went. There are also some vinyl windows that come with an integral nailing fin/j-channel and they are ready to accept vinyl siding. Again, the siding would need to come off to do that.

In any case, siding needs to be removed so that the new window can be installed in a manner that incorporates it into your existing WRB, provided there is one behind your vinyl siding. This becomes even more important on a 2 story house where you have one window directly above another.

That's about the shortest answer I can provide. But your additional questions might help.
 
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Old 03-06-11, 07:07 AM
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The only way that you'll be able to re-frame the openings is to remove the aluminum rim coil, it's backing, and some of the siding and the j-channel around the windows, like XSleeper said.

By "making the windows taller" do you mean raising the header, lowering the sill, or both? Lowering the sill is easy. Raising the header will be more difficult.

Once you have the windows in, buy a roll of trim coil, rent a 10' brake, install backing and wrap it with the coil. Then install the j-channel and siding. Since you are making the windows taller, you'll need some new j-channel. You shouldn't need any more siding.
 
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Old 03-06-11, 07:36 AM
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Thanks guys.

I realize I lacked some detail.

There is no J channel. The installers sorta made their own by the way they installed the aluminum trim. I talked to one dealer in the area a while a go and he said that (there was a name for this) trim technique was short lived and that's one of my problems with dealing with it.

I will be making the windows taller by dropping the sill, not touching the header - that's why I said the framing would be easy. Eventually, though, we'll get to windows where we'd keep the size the same and might have to just use replacements.

We chose Simonton 5500's which as far as I know, don't offer integral J channel.

Photos here:

Photos /house_windows
 
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Old 03-06-11, 01:25 PM
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Simonton does sell new constrution windows with intracal J moulding, far faster and simpler for a new be to do it that way.
And I agree with the other posters there is no way to replace a whole window with out removing the siding. How do you plan on covering the nailing fin with 6" wide self stucking window tape, or get the siding into the J moulding if you do not remove the siding.
It's never a good idea to try and micky mouse trim and coil stock around a window.
There's just no way a first time is going to get this one right trying to use a break.
 
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Old 03-07-11, 06:03 AM
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For siding, we have the original shingles covered with 1" styrofoam and then the vinyl. How does the window with J channel work with that? Is the J channel depth adjustable or does that mean the windows are bumped out to meet up with the siding?
 
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Old 03-07-11, 06:09 AM
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The windows' nailing flange would be installed on top of the 1" styrofoam (your WRB) and the flanges would be taped to the styrofoam with a butyl window flashing tape. The siding could then be inserted into the integral nailing fin.

The integral nailing fins work with "most" vinyl sidings. You would want to make sure that your siding is not thicker than the integral nailing fin is wide. I've had some that were pretty doggone tight.
 
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Old 03-07-11, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by XSleeper View Post
The windows' nailing flange would be installed on top of the 1" styrofoam (your WRB) and the flanges would be taped to the styrofoam with a butyl window flashing tape.
With the flanges over the foam and no water barrier behind the foam, can't water get behind the foam and into the framing? Doesn't this method pull the windows far outward, so do I have to frame the openings outwards?

What is WRB?

Thanks!
 
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Old 03-07-11, 08:46 AM
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J-channel can be had in various depths. They probably used 1/2" where the soffit joins the wall. Siding needs 3/4" or deeper, depending on what insulation is used and whether or not it gets tucked into the j-channel. Check with your supplier and see what depths he has available to choose from.

I wouldn't install the nail flange of the windows on top of the styrofoam. The foam has too much 'give' to support the weight of the windows.

Determine what you want to window, the trim, the siding to look like when you get it all together and go from there. There are almost as many "proper" ways to do it as there are installers. The important things are to channel the water away from the wall and stop the moisture.
 
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Old 03-07-11, 04:35 PM
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If you have 1" sheets of 4x8 or 4x9 styrofoam then it is your WRB (weather resistive barrier). What I am imagining is Dow tuff-r (XPS) or blue board (ISO) but if it is the white beadboard (EPS) then no, you don't want to mount the windows on that. EPS is too wimpy.

You mount the window to the foam and then tape the nailing flange to the foam and that is weather tight, provided the foam is installed in a manner that doesn't let water behind it. It's exactly the same thing as installing a window on top of Tyvek.

When foam isn't nailed back to the sheathing tight (due to voids behind the foam) then it is often wise to cut the foam and any underlying layers back a little bit so that you can install some solid framing (like a 2x2) onto the original sheathing that will bring the window out to the level of the foam. You rip a 2x4 down to the right thickness so that it will be flush with the foam. Then you have a solid wood perimeter to mount the window on top of, and it is still at the same level as the vinyl siding that way. When you apply the butyl window flashing tape over the nailing fin, it covers the joint between the 2x2 and the foam, and extends out onto the foam to make the installation water tight. Yes this builds the window out, so if you are getting a vinyl window you will just have a wider jamb on the inside. It's pretty standard to do it that way since you have such a thick wall with all those layers. If you planned on ripping all those layers off, and you were going to be getting back to the "original layer" of sheathing someday soon, you might do it differently. But it doesn't sound like that's in your plan. If you want to use the vinyl windows with the integral nailing fin, that's how you'd do it.
 
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Old 03-07-11, 05:51 PM
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Thanks guys - this is getting clearer.

It's the blue foam but it's over the original wood shingles so there are many wedge shaped air gaps under the foam.

I like the idea of cutting it back the the tar paper over the plywood sheathing and then building it out so that it's solid and sealed.

That brings up another issue: what about the windows that would be replacements in the old frames? It doesn't seem like the look of trim can be easily matched with this situation. Am I right? Do I have to basically pull all the house siding to do this to look consistent?
 
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Old 03-07-11, 07:13 PM
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There will be no way to make your windows look identical if you use 2 different types of windows.

The ones with the nailing flanges will actually make the outside glass be practically level with your vinyl siding... whereas a replacement window would "normally" be set about 2 1/8" back from the face of your exterior trim. With the additional layers of siding you have on your house, a replacement window that goes into the existing frame would appear VERY sunken in, when compared to the ones you mount on the foam. But you can't have it both ways.

You could trim the new construction windows with a sill nose and brickmould (like I mentioned earlier) so that the TRIM looks more like the trim on your windows that will keep the original frames. You would then put new j-channels around your new exterior trim to receive your vinyl siding (which you would remove around each window).
 
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Old 03-08-11, 06:12 PM
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Thanks XSleeper - something to really think about.
 
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Old 03-08-11, 07:10 PM
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Like Xsleeper said, if you are using 2 different windows, you won't be able to make the installation look the same. Also, you won't have the same look as what's there (as far as the windows being trimmed with nothing but aluminum coil) unless you duplicate that look as well. YOU CAN DO IT, but how much experience do you have bending the coil with the brake?? It's a LOT cheaper to mess up a piece of vinyl "j' than it is to mess up several feet of trim coil. The coil comes in 100 sq. ft. rolls -- 50' X 24" -- and they are about $125 to $150 per roll.

Looking at the pictures of what's there now, there are some pretty intricate bends. Only experience will tell you which ones have to be done first on some of those pieces. And knowing how much to allow for the hand bends that were done once the coil was installed, and how to cut to get those bends -- that only comes from having done it. And which pieces have to be installed first so water is deflected rather than being allowed to run BEHIND the coil and into the wall,...

There are a lot of DETAILS involved in doing what you have and getting it done correctly. I can see somebody wasting a couple rolls of coil before they get it right.
 
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Old 03-10-11, 01:18 PM
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Thanks lefty. I can't pull the siding off of the whole house to change the windows so I'm still trying to figure out a way to make it work. I hear all the great advice here, but I'm still trying to find some way to avoid just slapping in replacement windows.
 
 

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