New door / Walkout Basement - Over-sized?

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  #1  
Old 11-21-14, 11:47 AM
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New door / Walkout Basement - Over-sized?

I have a walkout basement. The backside of the basement is half concrete, top half framed. On one end of the backside, there is already a sliding glass door. On the other side, under my sun room extension, I want to put a over-sized door, where a window is installed today. I want a door wide enough to take large items in and out, including motorcycles. I had settled on a 42"x80" plain panel steel door.

I called around and have an installer and concrete cutter lined up, but when I went to go purchase a door I found out that no one stocks 42" doors. The installer I talked to suggested I go instead with a 72" double door, just based on availability.

I did end up locating a 42" door from a lumberyard that can be delivered in about 10 days.

Sorry, my question.

Is there a reason 42" doors are not more common place? Is there some structural, code, or other reason why I should consider using a 72" double in place of a 42"?

Thanks!

-Matt
 
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  #2  
Old 11-21-14, 11:55 AM
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Cutting concrete for new basement entry door.

I have an installer and concrete cutter lined up to install a new entry door in my walkout basement. Basement pad and covered patio are the same height. Chosen location is in a wall that is 3.5' concrete, and topped with a 2x4" framed wall.

Is there anything I should consider when installing this door?

-Bottom cut height?

-2x4 or 2x6 framing with a concrete half wall?

-Any issues with in-swing doors with the concrete is thicker than the 2x4 framed wall?

Any other warnings or suggestions appreciated!

Thanks,

-Matt
 
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Old 11-21-14, 02:56 PM
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No pictures, not on site hard to say.
What are the plans for a header?
Always best to have the threshold higher then the slab outside so water does not get in under the threshold.
By the sounds of it an out swing door would be best. A regular prehung door made for 2 X 4 or 2 X 6 opening will not swing all the way open with a wall that thick.
Are they going to allow for the 2 X's needed to frame in the prehung door?
 
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Old 11-22-14, 05:13 PM
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By the sounds of it an out swing door would be best. A regular prehung door made for 2 X 4 or 2 X 6 opening will not swing all the way open with a wall that thick.
Good point! Kind of overlooked that one. I was wanting it to swing in to avoid it being snowed shut and leave the the future possibility of a screen door.

Pics.





 
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Old 11-23-14, 07:32 AM
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I merged the two threads you had going since they dealt with the same project.
 
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Old 11-23-14, 07:36 AM
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If your door will be the same width as your existing window, your header problem is already in place. Cutting the monolith will be a bear, but using the right type saw, it is doable. You will need to cut back 1 1/2" so a new jack can be placed full length in the opening to hold the header. An inswing door may be problematic since it may hit the monolith and limit the opening swing arc. Since it is under cover, you may not need a storm door unless you want to let the light in. What is the measurement from the concrete floor to the bottom of the header?
 
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Old 11-23-14, 10:02 AM
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Not sure why you'd need a 42" door for getting a motorcycle into the basement. Unless you ride a Hog with lots of stuff attached, or a 3-wheeler. But to answer your initial question, the reason you don't see many 42" doors around is a matter of economics--there's just very little demand for them.
 
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Old 11-23-14, 02:26 PM
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83 1/2" high to Window header, and existing window is 36 1/2" wide.

Sliding glass door opens to about 33". I can get our bikes through with some effort. GF on the other hand cannot muscle it through the opening without damaging either the bike, or myself when she gets back up stairs. Figured adding 9" was a better bet than adding only 3".
 
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Old 11-23-14, 02:48 PM
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It will entail rebuilding the header, but taking one of the jacks completely out will give you 38", enough for a 36" door. You will need to support your joists with a false wall, cut the concrete behind one jack and behind one king for the opening to be 38". Replace the header with new jacks and you have a door 4" wider (32 versus 36"). Locating much wider may be a challenge. It should come in its own frame for easier installation (Prehung).
 
  #10  
Old 11-24-14, 12:26 AM
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Local lumber yard can have me a 42" prehung 80" door in 10 days. I ordered a in-swing, but will be calling Monday to change it to out-swing.

May not have been very obvious in the 2nd picture, but there is a steel beam under the floor joists about 3' from the window. Will this the beam be enough to support the joists (in place of a false wall) while the header is reconstructed for the new door?
 
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Old 11-24-14, 03:41 AM
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I see the steel beam, and yes, it will suffice for support while you rebuild the header. Build the heade in the exact sequence you see on your original for good support.
 
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Old 11-24-14, 03:36 PM
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The steel beam supporting the floor joists appears to be more than 3' away from the wall being worked on. Don't be surprised if the cantilevered joists deflect appreciably (and require jacking back up to their previous location) while you remove the window and install a new header--remember, that wall is also supporting the covered roof assembly outside as well as all the interior loads. To avoid having to mess around with jacking things back up, I'd install a temporary support or two closer to the wall, before surgery begins.
 
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Old 11-24-14, 04:36 PM
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Thanks again chandler.

I've done a bunch more measuring today. The outside pad is 2 inches higher than the basement pad.

Should the concrete be cut level with the outside pad? If not how much higher?

Should a pressure treated sill plate be installed under the door frame, or does it sit directly on the concrete?

BridgeMan45: The beam is 3' 10" from the wall.
 
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Old 11-24-14, 09:21 PM
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Not knowing if I need to add a sill plate under the door frame or not, I've sketched up my idea for using 2x10s to rough in the door frame.

Inside


Inside


Outside
 
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Old 11-24-14, 09:39 PM
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Your sketch is missing the header. A flat 2 x 10 won't support wall loads without sagging. To avoid building in a tripping hazard (because of the exterior slab being higher than the interior floor), you should consider constructing (or buying) a tapered floor transition piece.
 
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Old 11-24-14, 09:48 PM
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I haven't sketched the header yet due to not knowing if I should install a pressure treated sill plate below the door frame (or of the pre-hung frame sits directly on the sill pan / concrete). I need 82" vertical for the door. With a sill plate I have 5 1/16" for a header between the jack studs and the double top plate. Without, 6 9/16".

I plan on building / buying ramped transition pieces on both sides to be able to easily roll items in and out.
 

Last edited by EvilBetty; 11-24-14 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 11-24-14, 10:18 PM
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Here is an edit with no added sill plate. I assumed since the top plates were 2x4, I only needed the header width to be the same width.

 
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Old 11-24-14, 11:39 PM
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After seeing how much lumber and work that is going to consume, I'm thinking about going back to the out-swing option.

 
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Old 11-25-14, 03:09 AM
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Looks much better. Your header must lay in the position you show in the last picture. Box headers usually don't pass inspection because the lumber is basically laying flat with cripples.
 
  #20  
Old 12-03-14, 12:04 AM
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Thanks again, guys.

The door showed up today and I'm a little worried. I sat it up against the wall and was shocked how close it was to the outside joists. I haven't measured the door frame, but I'm guessing it needs a 7'x3'8" rough-in.

I measured again from the pad to the joists and get 91". From my error prone math, I think that only leaves me about 4" for a header.

 
  #21  
Old 12-20-14, 01:24 AM
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Door is installed.

BIG chunk of concrete we had to flip out of the installers way. Cutters just dropped it down in front of the opening.








I've got some problems though. The installer says it's the door. He made comments about the "reveal" which I assumed was about the brick mold, but then said something about the door still sealing tight.

Well after they left and sun started to set I noticed this:







In that last photo, the bottom 4" of gap is caused by the bottom weatherstrip pinching the side strip. This I could fix. But the rest of it looks as if the door isn't closing all the way. If I unlatch the door knob and pull on the handle I still can't get it to seal out all the light.

Then there is the bottom sill plate. I can see light under it as well. I told them I was going to spray foam the gaps around the door myself, but I thought the sill plate would have been sealed with silicone or flashing of some kind.

I'm prepared to go back to the lumberyard and talk to them about a replacement door, but is there any chance any or all of this is a fault of the installers? I'm trying to prepare for a finger pointing contest between the lumber yard and the installers.
 
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Old 12-20-14, 04:48 AM
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First check to see that the door frame is perfectly plumb in the opening on both the latch and the hinge sides. That often causes air gaps. Next set your latch plate a little back to allow a tighter closing against the rubber gaskets.
 
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Old 12-21-14, 10:06 PM
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Door frame is plumb. When I open the door out 90 deg, the door stays plumb.

With the door knob removed, I cannot push the door closed enough to eliminate the light coming in.

The light under the door frame bothers me. I thought that would be sealed in tight with lots of silicone / flashing.
 
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Old 12-22-14, 03:21 AM
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Just jabbing for answers. Do you have door seals in place around the perimeter where the door closes? There should have been silicone in an abundant supply provided under the threshold piece.
 
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Old 12-22-14, 01:05 PM
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Yes, door seals are in place.

Firstly, this is the weatherstripping "pinch" that is causing the biggest gap of light around the door. I think a little trimming would fix this.



Looks right to my untrained eyes everywhere else.





 
  #26  
Old 12-22-14, 01:19 PM
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As for the threshold, I don't think there is anything underneath it.




Passing this folder underneath in with no problem near the hinge side. Toward the handle side, I think I'm hitting the outside part of the threshold, as if it overhangs more there.

So I got down on the floor. This doesn't seem right to me.





Other than adhesive, should a sill pan or something else have gone down first here? How should that slopped floor / threshold transition been handled?
 
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Old 12-22-14, 01:31 PM
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And the issue with the rough-in.

Above, I drew up the plans for the rough in with treated lumber jack studs lining the rough opening. I talked about this with the installers prior to them telling the concrete cutters what to cut. When I came down when they were installing the door I asked about this again, they said that the door would be installed right in the concrete opening. They said this wasn't an issue.

As they were packing up I asked them about the missing screws from the hinges and they said they couldn't use the longer ones, there was nothing to drive them into, and suggested I use Tapcon's, as they did in the strike plates.








We hadn't picked out door hardware yet so I had them install and old lock set from the front door. When I went to change this out I remembered the problem with Tapcons. They (and the holes) are single use. I can use wall anchors but before I start modifying their install job I want to make sure I'm not going to be having them come back out to fix anything.

If the lack of framing along the concrete is a no-go, my only options are to pay the concrete cutters to come out and cut it wider, or get a smaller door.

-Matt
 
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Old 12-22-14, 01:46 PM
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The cutters didn't do such a hot job on the horizontal cut at the bottom. It should have been ground smooth and level for the door threshold to have something to sit on without bowing. At a minimum, the door installer should have shimmed the threshold to keep it from bowing down, and definitely should have used two generous beads of silicone along the bottom and up on the two sides about 6" or so to prevent water infiltration.

The longer screws are installed into at least the top hinge to keep it plumb and keep the door from sagging. Can't say I am a fan of their positioning of the striker, but that is not a big deal. The big honking screws through the door casing, IMO, should have been countersunk a little to allow you to putty over them to hide the heads.

I like to install doors in a wood frame, but the concrete cutters needed to make sure from the door frame size that is what you wanted. I am sure you told them, but adding 3" may not have been on their mind. What you have is OK, not super, but it will work. I see the tapcons, just wish they had countersunk them.

You will also need to fit in a tapered piece of 1x or 5/4 board under the threshold where it hangs out into oblivion, as the metal can fatigue at that point with foot traffic.
 
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Old 12-22-14, 01:52 PM
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And I think I understand what the installer was referring to as the "reveal".

It gets narrower at the sides.




The inside looks like this:

 
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Old 12-31-14, 12:48 AM
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Ok, thanks Chandler.

Found a lot more wrong with the door. Waiting on the door company (kinda local it turns out) to come out and inspect / order a new door. Will either be them or the lumber yard.

After I have a commitment from one of them I'm going to call the concrete cutters back to have them grind down the sill, and the installers back to have them install it properly with some kind of seal under the door sill.
 
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Old 12-31-14, 05:54 AM
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BAM!! Good handling. It could have been done DIY, but it was not your responsibility. Glad the installers were up front.
 
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Old 01-18-15, 10:32 AM
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Not going so smooth so far.

Door guy came out. Agreed with all the problems wrong with the door itself, found no real installation issues other than the concrete cutting. Refused to replace the door. He's insistent shimming the hinges, replacing the weather stripping, and shimming the hell out of the top of the door frame to force it straight are all that is needed. The rest of the problems he's just going to grind and putty.

I had the concrete guys back out. One of the two anyway. I pulled the door and he used a straight board to find the bow in the middle and ground it down. Then when he went back with the straight board, found a problem that couldn't be fixed grinding. It like a combination of the saw getting crooked toward the end of the cut, and the corner finish with the chain saw digging deeper, a slope was created. If this had been on the other side it wouldn't have been a big deal. But on this end it put the sill below the pad outside, creating a lovely water infiltration spot.





I decided to build a door pan to bring it back up level. I bought some door tape, and a piece of sloped ceder siding, but I need to fill and support this void below it first.

I looked at using self-leveling concrete / crack filler, but the concrete doesn't seem to like being any less than a 1/4 thick, and the crack filler is flexible.

Any suggestions on what to put under this? I've got the weather and time today, and need to get this knocked out.
 
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Old 01-18-15, 10:44 AM
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The shingle will probably work fine. Definitely build a pan and bring it up on the sides of the concrete. When you set the door, be sure, as mentioned you lay in several bold strips of silicone along the bottom and up on the sides. This will further keep water at bay.
 
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Old 01-18-15, 10:45 AM
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Any advise on what to put under the shingle where the void is?
 
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Old 01-18-15, 11:02 AM
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You could use silicone, but your pan will extend outward a ways to help keep water away.
 
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