Welcome to the DoItYourself Forums!

To post questions, help other DIYers and reduce advertising (like the one on your left), join our DIY community. It's free!

Bad Workmanship? Entry door attached to brick veneer


ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 09:23 AM   #1  
Bad Workmanship? Entry door attached to brick veneer

So I'm currently fighting with a (bad) contractor I hired to remove and replace the exterior front entry door to my condo. I'd appreciate some feedback on this issue. The old door was attached to the CMU foundation that makes up the lower level of the building. The contractor removed the old door, and installed the new door 4 inches forward, attached to the brick veneer. I'm arguing that this is completely insane, as to the best of my knowledge, brick veneer is not a structural element. It's maybe 2" thick brick that to my understanding is purely decorative, and attached the the structure with just enough strength to keep it from coming off in a strong storm. It has no structural value. The contractor is claiming they do this all the time, and it is completely legit building code. I am highly suspicious of this claim.

So..... Yes, No? I'll be surprised if this is considered an acceptable thing, but I also build roads not structures, so what do I know. Thanks in advance!

- Brett

 
Sponsored Links
marksr's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 42,809
TN

04-06-17, 09:26 AM   #2  
Welcome to the forums Brett!

pics could be helpful - http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html

Does the door swing in or out? The side with the hinges should be flush with the wall. The door doesn't generally get directly fastened to the block or brick, there should be a pressure treated 2x fastened to the masonry with the door secured to those 2xs


retired painter/contractor avid DIYer

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 09:45 AM   #3  
Thanks Mark. See Pics below. The hinges are mounted to the wood frame of the door, which is attached to the brick veneer. My issue is not with the quality of work out of context, but that they relocated the door from being attached to a structural element to being attached to a non-structural element. I can't see any value in doing that, and I see considerable negative issues in attaching an exterior door to non-structural elements (particularly when you have a structural element to use).

Additionally, by moving the door to the outermost layer of the building, it would seem it would /increase/ the energy loss, which is a major reason we replaced the door in the first place.

They were hired to remove and replace. This should mean put the new door back where you found the old door.

Name:  20170403_165630.jpg
Views: 90
Size:  24.3 KB
Name:  20170403_193959.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  23.5 KB

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 09:49 AM   #4  
Oh, and it swings in. I won't even get into how they put the door too low, such that it can't clear the flooring by a good 1/2 inch.

 
marksr's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 42,809
TN

04-06-17, 10:20 AM   #5  
Have you paid them yet? if not, don't!

Hard to tell from the pic - is there a threshold? Where did you find this contractor? The inside of the door should be flush with the interior wall.


retired painter/contractor avid DIYer

 
Esand1's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 513
Non-US

04-06-17, 10:38 AM   #6  
It looks terrible but it seems to me like the structural non structural thing is a bit of a non issue. The bricks will hold the hinges and unless the entire veneer falls off....

The main point though is:

They were hired to remove and replace. This should mean put the new door back where you found the old door.
You'd think that would be obvious.

 
XSleeper's Avatar
Group Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 19,320
NE

04-06-17, 11:02 AM   #7  
The biggest factor that should be driving the placement of the door in the wall is that technically, there is supposed to be a 1" space behind brick as a drainage plane. Water that gets behind the brick would run down the sheathing (in your case, the cmu) and needs to be able to drain out from the front edge of the brick lentil. (Assuming the lentil is properly flashed and weep holes or wicks are installed) As long as that drainage plane is not blocked, its fine.

The other factor is anchoring the door. Your brick is not going anywhere. You dont bolt deck ledgers to brick but a door? Meh. It looks like its half on brick half on cmu to me.

One other thing... at some point your insulated concrete floor ends and the uninsulated sidewalk begins. I would not move the door out beyond the edge of the insulated floor pad. (There should be a definite expansion joint that is the demarcation between the two.)

Door should have been ordered with a wider jamb, sill and threshold in the first place if you ask me.

Bottom line, if it was previously installed farther in, what makes them think its ok to just decide to move it way out without your prior consent?

 
marksr's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 42,809
TN

04-06-17, 11:05 AM   #8  
Is the new door wider than the original door? What is the distance between the studs next to the carpet where the old door was? What size is the new door? I'm thinking maybe they tried to install a wider door - which won't fit correctly. Any halfway decent carpenter would know if the door was too wide for the opening and bring that to your attention.


retired painter/contractor avid DIYer

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 11:40 AM   #9  
Thanks everyone for chiming in, I appreciate it.

Hard to tell from the pic - is there a threshold?
There is not a significant concrete threshold. The interior concrete slopes down to the exterior sidewalk by maybe 1/4 inch. The original builder has a 1.5" high wood threshold installed under the metal threshold plate. Presumably this was to accommodate the hardwood that was originally installed (ripped out by previous owners after a burst water pipe flood).

The biggest factor that should be driving the placement of the door in the wall is that technically, there is supposed to be a 1" space behind brick as a drainage plane.
So would you say this is a factor indicating it should be attached to the interior side of that gap, rather than the exterior? The door is attached entirely to the brick veneer, so the gap is between the door and the interior. Even if "it's fine" or "it'll do", the question is how should it have been done? Or more accurately, where would it typically be attached by most contractors?

Meh. It looks like its half on brick half on cmu to me
No, the door frame is attached entirely to the brick veneer.

As for the comments on moving the door without my consent. They're trying to claim because I wasn't onsite, they had no choice but to install "by their judgement". Except, you know, phones and everything. Moreover, I'm questioning their judgement. It just seems across the board, even if "it'll do", the best place to install is attached to the CMU. Which is where it was attached, and thus there is no justification to install it differently.

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 11:49 AM   #10  
Is the new door wider than the original door? What is the distance between the studs next to the carpet where the old door was? What size is the new door? I'm thinking maybe they tried to install a wider door - which won't fit correctly. Any halfway decent carpenter would know if the door was too wide for the opening and bring that to your attention.
The door is the exact same size height/width as the previous door. Less thick though.

So part of what makes this whole thing less straight forward, is the opening in the CMU and wood is actually 2" higher than the brick veneer. From the inside you can see the first layer of the brick over the metal lintel.

The width is pretty much the same all the way through. The height is the big difference. Part of their argument for why they installed in the brick veneer opening is the door fit better there, and didn't require building the frame up on the top and bottom. Which might be a valid point, except the door does not currently clear the flooring, and I don't think you can move the frame up at all because of the metal lintel. So again, we're back to it not being installed correctly.

 
marksr's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 42,809
TN

04-06-17, 12:08 PM   #11  
Assuming this was a prehung door it should have come with an aluminum threshold attached to the bottom of the jambs. You can't get a good seal at the bottom of the door without a metal or wooden threshold.

I think they were just a bunch of hacks not qualified to install a door! Don't see how they can claim the door fit better where they installed it rather than where the old one was. I hope they haven't been paid yet!!


retired painter/contractor avid DIYer

 
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 39,968
GA

04-06-17, 01:36 PM   #12  
Sorry I'm late to the party, but geesh, what a cruddy install. What was in each of the circles? Blue? Red? Yellow. Was there a jamb extension? Was there framing? Does this entire door sit inside a cave like soffit?

Name:  door.jpg
Views: 85
Size:  23.1 KB

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 04:21 PM   #13  
Assuming the lentil is properly flashed and weep holes or wicks are installed
Checked around the edges of the building, don't see anything that looks like weep holes or wicks. The brick looks to go one layer below the PCC sidewalk, so they may be there (which is probably not good).

Sorry I'm late to the party,
No worries, any help is appreciated.

What was in each of the circles? Blue? Red? Yellow.
Do you mean between the layers? Or generally occupying that space? I'll answer both for expediency.

Blue: Nothing appears to be between the CMU and Brick. There was some insulation around the immediate door area, but otherwise it's just an air gap. At that location was metal flashing that covered the gap between the CMU and brick (originally, that location was outside the door). The flashing was not tightly placed against the masonry, which I think was contributing to the draft problems.

Yellow: Between the wood framing and CMU appears to be standard fiber insulation. That's where the door was, you can see where the carpet ends is where the wood threshold was.

Red: That's the wood framing for the drywall. There was a thin piece of wood there that evened the section out with the door frame.

Oh Hey! Look what I found. A picture before the dingbats ripped everything up. This is looking from outside to inside, whereas the previous pictures are inside looking out (and the opposite side of doorway).

Name:  20170211_114705.jpg
Views: 55
Size:  27.5 KB

Was there a jamb extension? Was there framing?
Errm..... Well, based on the description of "jamb extension" on this site, I would say yes. And I believe there was probably additional framing around the door jambs. The rough opening in the CMU is 84x40 for an 80x36 door. Part of what they were supposed to do was rebuild all that framing to ensure it was all sealed, because we had considerable drafting problems with the doorway.

Does this entire door sit inside a cave like soffit?
Erm..... Not sure. Individual words make sense, but I'm not picturing what you mean. I build roads.....

- Brett

 
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 39,968
GA

04-06-17, 05:10 PM   #14  
Now that we've seen normalcy, how about a picture from the outside as it sits now. Crack the door open the same amount and use the same angle. That would help greatly.

Just looking at the door installation it appears there is a soffit overhead and a deep well like indentation of many inches before you even reach the door handle, which is sunk in another 4 inches past normal.

 
ThatBrett's Avatar
Member

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
IL

04-06-17, 05:46 PM   #15  
Yes. Previously, the door handle was 4" from the interior wall. Now it is 9".

Ok, Here is the best I can do because currently the door only opens a few inches (it was installed too low and catches on the carpet, including the underlayment).

Name:  20170406_193803 2.jpg
Views: 111
Size:  32.3 KB

Attached Images
     
 
Gunguy45's Avatar
Super Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 20,664
AZ

04-06-17, 11:18 PM   #16  
Hacks...that's all I can say. They were hacks pure and simple. I'm no Pro but have installed my share of doors (and sold a ton more) and that is pure junk. It will need to be ripped out (carefully) and reinstalled properly. New wood framing to the cmu maybe, a treated spacer underneath the sill to raise it, either site built extension jambs or a new frame ordered. If at all possible, I'd get every dime back from the first guys. I won't call them carpenters or even installers because they are neither. Dispute the charge if it was on a CC. Cancel the check. Whatever you can do.


Vic
"I sometimes wonder how some people ever made it to adulthood..."

 
XSleeper's Avatar
Group Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 19,320
NE

04-07-17, 05:23 AM   #17  
Normally the face of the brickmould should be inset into the brick. If you measured from the face of the brick back to the brickmould, the distance would be about 3 - 3 1/2". Anything else is abnormal.

There is a straight crack on your original door photo that is about 3/4" in front of the original door. That, IMO, is the maximum amount that the door should/could be moved out.

 
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 39,968
GA

04-07-17, 02:32 PM   #18  
After seeing the outside picture, I can't add anything that Vic didn't say on a family type forums. Ghastly installation at best. I am sorry you are having to go through this.

 
Search this Thread