Advice on glass glazing & wood species for wood windows
#1
08-25-20, 08:09 PM
Advice on glass glazing & wood species for wood windows
Hi,
We have original single glazing wood windows overlooking an inside/indoor open air patio that have gone bad and need to be replaced. I attached some images. The windows may look decent from the inside, but the outside is another story.
We are looking to replace them with newly constructed wood windows and not with known brands. The window maker company we are talking to is recommending Alaska White (Yellow) Cedar instead of Douglas Fir, and they're recommending using laminated glass instead of single glazing. They have said that the cedar would tolerate heat better than Douglas fir. This is San Francisco, so not hot but the patio does get sun, when the sun actually comes out.
Any advice on the pros and cons of the wood species and types of glass? They have explained the benefits of laminated glass (safety, noise reduction, UV ray blocking), but we still feel that we need advice on pros and cons. We also don't know anything about wood species, so any advice there would be very appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
rimael
We have original single glazing wood windows overlooking an inside/indoor open air patio that have gone bad and need to be replaced. I attached some images. The windows may look decent from the inside, but the outside is another story.
We are looking to replace them with newly constructed wood windows and not with known brands. The window maker company we are talking to is recommending Alaska White (Yellow) Cedar instead of Douglas Fir, and they're recommending using laminated glass instead of single glazing. They have said that the cedar would tolerate heat better than Douglas fir. This is San Francisco, so not hot but the patio does get sun, when the sun actually comes out.
Any advice on the pros and cons of the wood species and types of glass? They have explained the benefits of laminated glass (safety, noise reduction, UV ray blocking), but we still feel that we need advice on pros and cons. We also don't know anything about wood species, so any advice there would be very appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
rimael
Top Answer
08-29-20, 08:33 AM
Member
Rimael, you're welcome and I am glad that my comments helped.
I am really curious about the window company that you are talking with, and even more so about the window rep. Honestly I am floored by what you are being told by the window company rep, and I am wondering if what she is saying is a reflection on the company, or on her, or on both.
You described weatherstriping perfectly in your previous post, and that she suggested it was industry standard to use it on laminated glass windows but not on non-laminated glass windows is ludicrous and no where close to being even remotely factual. After you had mentioned it the first time, I was at a loss and since I knew that she couldn't be talking about actual weatherstripping, she had to be talking about something else...apparently she wasn't.
You can't use linseed oil based window putty when installing IG units (dual pane) or laminated glass because the linseed oil will attack the the sealants in the IG and the interlayer in the laminated glass causing failure. Beyond that, with the exception of small usually highly customized shops, you really won't find any window company that uses putty to glaze windows. In modern windows the glass is held in place by a glazing bead against a fixed stop. The glazing bead may snap into place or it could be attached using brads or staples or even tiny screws. Also there is usually going to be either glazing tape or silicone or other adhesive sealant between the stop and the glass. However, I don't know any company that uses an epoxy in that application, and i would never recommend using an epoxy in any case because it lacks flexibility.
Despite what the window company rep believes, dual pane windows don't all fail. While most IG units (especially for vinyl windows) are manufactured by the window company, over 1/3 of all IG units used in the US and Canada are manufactured by Cardinal Glass. I mention Cardinal because 1) they are more than 1/3 of all IGU's produced, 2) they closely monitor and track field failures, and 3) because that's who manufactured the IG units in your Marvin windows.
Do they fail?
Cardinal projected a .25% failure rate over 20 years and .5% over 50 years for their XL spacer based IGU system when it was introduced in 1992. In the 28 years since introduction, the XL field failure rate is almost dead-on .20%, .05% better than predicted. A few years back Cardinal introduced the Endur spacer system that improves energy performance while maintaining the long term reliability of the XL. Also since Cardinal has something close to 500,000,000 IG units currently under warranty, not having failures is something that they are very focused on.
Although it's pretty much impossible to accurately track, the remaining 2/3rds of dual pane units produced are generally claimed (or extrapolated) to have failure rates of somewhere between <1% to >6% based on the system used, the quality of the manufacturing facility, and the diligence of the company to track the data. Although there are a few specific outliers that are much worse than the 1-6%, information that I have seen does seem to support those numbers.
In any case, the actual data pretty much repudiates the window rep's opinion of not using dual pane glass units because they fail.
I am also curious how the window company proposes working around title 24 using single pane glass?
I am really curious about the window company that you are talking with, and even more so about the window rep. Honestly I am floored by what you are being told by the window company rep, and I am wondering if what she is saying is a reflection on the company, or on her, or on both.
You described weatherstriping perfectly in your previous post, and that she suggested it was industry standard to use it on laminated glass windows but not on non-laminated glass windows is ludicrous and no where close to being even remotely factual. After you had mentioned it the first time, I was at a loss and since I knew that she couldn't be talking about actual weatherstripping, she had to be talking about something else...apparently she wasn't.
You can't use linseed oil based window putty when installing IG units (dual pane) or laminated glass because the linseed oil will attack the the sealants in the IG and the interlayer in the laminated glass causing failure. Beyond that, with the exception of small usually highly customized shops, you really won't find any window company that uses putty to glaze windows. In modern windows the glass is held in place by a glazing bead against a fixed stop. The glazing bead may snap into place or it could be attached using brads or staples or even tiny screws. Also there is usually going to be either glazing tape or silicone or other adhesive sealant between the stop and the glass. However, I don't know any company that uses an epoxy in that application, and i would never recommend using an epoxy in any case because it lacks flexibility.
Despite what the window company rep believes, dual pane windows don't all fail. While most IG units (especially for vinyl windows) are manufactured by the window company, over 1/3 of all IG units used in the US and Canada are manufactured by Cardinal Glass. I mention Cardinal because 1) they are more than 1/3 of all IGU's produced, 2) they closely monitor and track field failures, and 3) because that's who manufactured the IG units in your Marvin windows.
Do they fail?
Cardinal projected a .25% failure rate over 20 years and .5% over 50 years for their XL spacer based IGU system when it was introduced in 1992. In the 28 years since introduction, the XL field failure rate is almost dead-on .20%, .05% better than predicted. A few years back Cardinal introduced the Endur spacer system that improves energy performance while maintaining the long term reliability of the XL. Also since Cardinal has something close to 500,000,000 IG units currently under warranty, not having failures is something that they are very focused on.
Although it's pretty much impossible to accurately track, the remaining 2/3rds of dual pane units produced are generally claimed (or extrapolated) to have failure rates of somewhere between <1% to >6% based on the system used, the quality of the manufacturing facility, and the diligence of the company to track the data. Although there are a few specific outliers that are much worse than the 1-6%, information that I have seen does seem to support those numbers.
In any case, the actual data pretty much repudiates the window rep's opinion of not using dual pane glass units because they fail.
I am also curious how the window company proposes working around title 24 using single pane glass?
#2
08-25-20, 08:29 PM
Group Moderator
I don't have much to comment on, other than the "laminated glass" comment. I think you are confusing that term with something else.
Laminated glass means the glass has a plastic/vinyl interlayer between the glass, like the windshield of your car has. It is a safety feature that keeps the glass together if it breaks. It's obviously better than regular glass but it's not really more energy efficient. Is glass breakage a problem? If not why the upgrade? I think they are overexagerating the benefits. PM our member Oberon if you want the specifics on that glass.
From what I see through the windows they look fine. Probably just need standard reglazing and paint. Hope they arent taking advantage of you.
Laminated glass means the glass has a plastic/vinyl interlayer between the glass, like the windshield of your car has. It is a safety feature that keeps the glass together if it breaks. It's obviously better than regular glass but it's not really more energy efficient. Is glass breakage a problem? If not why the upgrade? I think they are overexagerating the benefits. PM our member Oberon if you want the specifics on that glass.
From what I see through the windows they look fine. Probably just need standard reglazing and paint. Hope they arent taking advantage of you.
#3
08-25-20, 09:45 PM
Hi,
Thanks so much for responding. I knew what laminated glass was - the company had explained what it was and said it would be like windshield glass, and the cost of using that over single glazing (single pane glass) wasn't high. We just weren't sure it was something we would need given this is an indoor patio, so low of risk of breaking and no noise. We were concerned about the look (1/4" thick compared to 1/8" for single glazing). I don't know how to PM here.
The windows look fine from the inside, but each window has a different problem. The opening/weight mechanism of the single hung is completed busted - we're holding up the upper sash with a broom so it doesn't fall. The bottom rail of the lower sash has dry rot.
The hinges on both casement windows are rusted and need to be replaced. The windows don't open properly.
The windows had started leaking a few years ago, so my husband put some type of sealant on the outside over the putty. The sealant is dirty, but the leaks still need to be repaired, so all the putty needs to come off. Some of the glass panes are already broken, so trying to scrape off the putty without breaking the glass would be a lot of work. We've brought two companies and both said it would be cheaper and better to build new windows than to try and repair these. I can post some pictures for the outside, but the reality is we would need someone to be willing to do the work at a reasonable price.
Thanks so much for responding. I knew what laminated glass was - the company had explained what it was and said it would be like windshield glass, and the cost of using that over single glazing (single pane glass) wasn't high. We just weren't sure it was something we would need given this is an indoor patio, so low of risk of breaking and no noise. We were concerned about the look (1/4" thick compared to 1/8" for single glazing). I don't know how to PM here.
The windows look fine from the inside, but each window has a different problem. The opening/weight mechanism of the single hung is completed busted - we're holding up the upper sash with a broom so it doesn't fall. The bottom rail of the lower sash has dry rot.
The hinges on both casement windows are rusted and need to be replaced. The windows don't open properly.
The windows had started leaking a few years ago, so my husband put some type of sealant on the outside over the putty. The sealant is dirty, but the leaks still need to be repaired, so all the putty needs to come off. Some of the glass panes are already broken, so trying to scrape off the putty without breaking the glass would be a lot of work. We've brought two companies and both said it would be cheaper and better to build new windows than to try and repair these. I can post some pictures for the outside, but the reality is we would need someone to be willing to do the work at a reasonable price.
#6
08-26-20, 08:46 AM
You would never notice a difference visually between laminated and single pane glass, but like you and XSleeper I am also puzzled why they suggested it in your application.
If you were concerned about safety, or security, or noise, or whatever, it would make sense to recommend laminated, but none of those seem to apply in your case.
If you were concerned about safety, or security, or noise, or whatever, it would make sense to recommend laminated, but none of those seem to apply in your case.
Last edited by Oberon; 08-26-20 at 08:47 AM. Reason: update
Norm201
voted this post useful.
#7
08-26-20, 08:53 AM
Group Moderator
I'd guess it has more to do with accidental breakage during assembly and that the other benefits are just a bonus or selling point... I can't count the number of times I have accidentally broken a piece of single pane glass when I'm doing sash repairs for someone. Push in a glazing point and accidentally break the glass because there was a spec of old glazing or something causing a pressure point. Kind of eats up the profit real quick on a job that was bid, and that is already taking too long.
If the cost to upgrade is minimal I can see why they might recommend it as their standard.
I guess I'm not clear on whether the OP is getting new sashes, or entirely new windows. Also unsure why the OP wants to stick with wood, unless it has to do with the charm of wood... or if the neighborhood has historical preservation reasons. Seems most people would want to upgrade to a double pane window for better energy conservation and comfort.
If the cost to upgrade is minimal I can see why they might recommend it as their standard.
I guess I'm not clear on whether the OP is getting new sashes, or entirely new windows. Also unsure why the OP wants to stick with wood, unless it has to do with the charm of wood... or if the neighborhood has historical preservation reasons. Seems most people would want to upgrade to a double pane window for better energy conservation and comfort.
#8
08-26-20, 12:33 PM
There are more than a few places online that recommend laminated glass for "improved energy performance", including some window companies on their websites, so perhaps that is what they are thinking?
I have had discussions with people who thought laminated glass was as good as an IG in energy terms, no matter what I tried to tell them.
However all that aside, If the cost difference is minimal, and using single pane was still the option, I would use the lami for the real benefits of the product.
I have had discussions with people who thought laminated glass was as good as an IG in energy terms, no matter what I tried to tell them.
However all that aside, If the cost difference is minimal, and using single pane was still the option, I would use the lami for the real benefits of the product.
Last edited by Oberon; 08-26-20 at 12:36 PM. Reason: update
#9
08-27-20, 08:34 PM
Thank you so much for all the responses. Apologies for not responding yesterday - I was offline.
Norm201 - can you clarify what you mean by new inserts? What we're getting is a replacement of what's visible, basically the glass and the wood pieces that surround the glass, plus new hinges for the casement windows. We're calling those replacement windows. One company is calling them 'sashes'. Another is calling them windows. I'm attaching a screenshot of one estimate so everyone can see what we're getting, and you can see the difference in price between laminated glass and single glazed glass.
Oberon - the company suggested laminated glass for 4 reasons: safety, noise, 25% more insulation and UV ray protection. I explained that neither safety nor noise were issues for us. The rep explained that for laminated glass they install weather stripping. I asked why they only install weather stripping with laminated glass and not with single glazed glass, and she said that's how the industry does it. The UV ray protection was a plus for us because we have an antique'ish rug that we try to protect with a window covering. We were concerned about the visual difference between laminated and single glazing, but the rep said it's barely noticeable, but the laminated glass may have a blueish or greyish hue.
XSleeper - We're using wood because there is also a door that overlooks the same patio that we're not replacing because it still functions well. The door is visible in the single casement picture. That's why we're looking for new windows that look exactly like what we have. Plus, we like the charming look. Last year we looked into upgrading to double pane clad wood. The estimate for 3 Marvin windows + one door (installed) was $10K. That's almost twice what we would pay now. Because this is an indoor patio, it doesn't get the harsh wind or rain we get at the west-facing front of the house. That's our main reason for feeling it would be ok to keep single glass instead of double pane, although I'm sure we would have better energy conservation and comfort with double pane windows. The cost is too high. Ideally, we would be able to find someone who can fix what we have instead of replacing them, but we haven't found anyone who's willing to do that.
Also, does anyone have thoughts about the wood species? One company said they would use douglas fir, but this company wants to use Alaska white cedar saying it has better properties than douglas fir and does better under heat (sun). We live in the west part of the city, about 1.5 miles away from the ocean, so not sure if that is a consideration.
Thank you again for all your inputs.
Norm201 - can you clarify what you mean by new inserts? What we're getting is a replacement of what's visible, basically the glass and the wood pieces that surround the glass, plus new hinges for the casement windows. We're calling those replacement windows. One company is calling them 'sashes'. Another is calling them windows. I'm attaching a screenshot of one estimate so everyone can see what we're getting, and you can see the difference in price between laminated glass and single glazed glass.
Oberon - the company suggested laminated glass for 4 reasons: safety, noise, 25% more insulation and UV ray protection. I explained that neither safety nor noise were issues for us. The rep explained that for laminated glass they install weather stripping. I asked why they only install weather stripping with laminated glass and not with single glazed glass, and she said that's how the industry does it. The UV ray protection was a plus for us because we have an antique'ish rug that we try to protect with a window covering. We were concerned about the visual difference between laminated and single glazing, but the rep said it's barely noticeable, but the laminated glass may have a blueish or greyish hue.
XSleeper - We're using wood because there is also a door that overlooks the same patio that we're not replacing because it still functions well. The door is visible in the single casement picture. That's why we're looking for new windows that look exactly like what we have. Plus, we like the charming look. Last year we looked into upgrading to double pane clad wood. The estimate for 3 Marvin windows + one door (installed) was $10K. That's almost twice what we would pay now. Because this is an indoor patio, it doesn't get the harsh wind or rain we get at the west-facing front of the house. That's our main reason for feeling it would be ok to keep single glass instead of double pane, although I'm sure we would have better energy conservation and comfort with double pane windows. The cost is too high. Ideally, we would be able to find someone who can fix what we have instead of replacing them, but we haven't found anyone who's willing to do that.
Also, does anyone have thoughts about the wood species? One company said they would use douglas fir, but this company wants to use Alaska white cedar saying it has better properties than douglas fir and does better under heat (sun). We live in the west part of the city, about 1.5 miles away from the ocean, so not sure if that is a consideration.
Thank you again for all your inputs.
#10
08-28-20, 05:36 AM
Member
An insert is a whole window replacement (including all parts) that will fit into the existing rough framing. edit...see next post for correction of what I posted. Usually they will be slightly smaller than the originals. For the most part they are quite easy to install yourself. Everything is done from the inside except maybe caulking on the outside. Removing the old window is probably the hardest part. If you DIY, with an insert you can usually get a better quality unit since labor accounts for at least half the cost. Proper measurement of the old window is paramount for proper sizing.
Single pane windows to me is a total waste of money. They have very little insulation properties compared to double pane. Most double pane glass windows have a inert gas between panes to help with insulation properties. And almost all double pane window will have UV coating on them. You can always put on a UV laminate later on. In your case however, you say it's not in direct contact with outside weather. So I suppose single pane will suffice. Also the laminated glass does not seem to be of any real value in your case. As far as the material goes, Douglas Fir is usually a better grade of wood material. But a cedar is good to repel possible termite or similar damage. Perhaps your location in the country may have a bearing on that.
If it was me, and with an inside sunporch or patio, in an effort o keep cost low I would buy replacement windows at the big box store and either have them installed or DIY.
Single pane windows to me is a total waste of money. They have very little insulation properties compared to double pane. Most double pane glass windows have a inert gas between panes to help with insulation properties. And almost all double pane window will have UV coating on them. You can always put on a UV laminate later on. In your case however, you say it's not in direct contact with outside weather. So I suppose single pane will suffice. Also the laminated glass does not seem to be of any real value in your case. As far as the material goes, Douglas Fir is usually a better grade of wood material. But a cedar is good to repel possible termite or similar damage. Perhaps your location in the country may have a bearing on that.
If it was me, and with an inside sunporch or patio, in an effort o keep cost low I would buy replacement windows at the big box store and either have them installed or DIY.
Last edited by Norm201; 08-28-20 at 05:59 AM.
#11
08-28-20, 05:55 AM
Group Moderator
By definition, a window "insert" is a custom sized replacement window (also called retrofit) that gets "insert" into the existing window and frame... it is not a total window replacement that goes in the rough opening. (Total replacement is also called new construction replacement).
#12
08-28-20, 08:18 AM
Good morning rimael,
Although probably overkill, I am going to address several of the different points that the window rep made because frankly it appears that either the rep or the company doesn't appear to know a lot about laminated glass, and some of her replies to your questions are either questionable or else simply wrong.
the company suggested laminated glass for 4 reasons: safety, noise, 25% more insulation and UV ray protection. --- Laminated glass will improve window performance in safety, security, noise, and UV protection. Laminated glass will not provide 25% improvement in insulation versus monolithic single pane glass. The real world difference in insulating value between laminated and regular glass is negligible.
The rep explained that for laminated glass they install weather stripping. I asked why they only install weather stripping with laminated glass and not with single glazed glass, --- This really doesn't make sense to me at all, I would also ask her to explain this one.
and she said that's how the industry does it. --- While in some situations this can be true, this really is no answer in yours and I would ask her to do better
The UV ray protection was a plus for us because we have an antique'ish rug that we try to protect with a window covering. --- Laminated glass will block better than 95% UV (up to 99% depending on product), which is the majority of the cause, but visible light also contributes significantly to fading and clear laminated glass does not address the visible light part of the problem. You would need either a low solar gain LowE coating or tinted glass as part of the laminated to really eliminate fading.
We were concerned about the visual difference between laminated and single glazing, but the rep said it's barely noticeable, --- In normal conditions you won't see any difference between laminated glass and single pane glass in your windows. There is no barely noticeable. There is not noticeable at all.
but the laminated glass may have a blueish or greyish hue. --- Laminated glass consists of two layers of glass bonded together using a plastic interlayer. With a few exceptions (none would apply to you) there are two primary types of interlayers used for residential laminated glass - polyvinyl butyral or PVB, and SentryGlas or SGP. SGP may have a slight (or more than slight) blue tint IF it was cooled incorrectly after being laminated. Standard residential or automotive PVB will never look blue in any conditions.
Both interlayers will be clear without any hue if manufactured correctly.
Hope this helps your decision, but like other posters I am wondering why the window company simply isn't offering a and more-or-less standard dual-pane option.
Although probably overkill, I am going to address several of the different points that the window rep made because frankly it appears that either the rep or the company doesn't appear to know a lot about laminated glass, and some of her replies to your questions are either questionable or else simply wrong.
the company suggested laminated glass for 4 reasons: safety, noise, 25% more insulation and UV ray protection. --- Laminated glass will improve window performance in safety, security, noise, and UV protection. Laminated glass will not provide 25% improvement in insulation versus monolithic single pane glass. The real world difference in insulating value between laminated and regular glass is negligible.
The rep explained that for laminated glass they install weather stripping. I asked why they only install weather stripping with laminated glass and not with single glazed glass, --- This really doesn't make sense to me at all, I would also ask her to explain this one.
and she said that's how the industry does it. --- While in some situations this can be true, this really is no answer in yours and I would ask her to do better
The UV ray protection was a plus for us because we have an antique'ish rug that we try to protect with a window covering. --- Laminated glass will block better than 95% UV (up to 99% depending on product), which is the majority of the cause, but visible light also contributes significantly to fading and clear laminated glass does not address the visible light part of the problem. You would need either a low solar gain LowE coating or tinted glass as part of the laminated to really eliminate fading.
We were concerned about the visual difference between laminated and single glazing, but the rep said it's barely noticeable, --- In normal conditions you won't see any difference between laminated glass and single pane glass in your windows. There is no barely noticeable. There is not noticeable at all.
but the laminated glass may have a blueish or greyish hue. --- Laminated glass consists of two layers of glass bonded together using a plastic interlayer. With a few exceptions (none would apply to you) there are two primary types of interlayers used for residential laminated glass - polyvinyl butyral or PVB, and SentryGlas or SGP. SGP may have a slight (or more than slight) blue tint IF it was cooled incorrectly after being laminated. Standard residential or automotive PVB will never look blue in any conditions.
Both interlayers will be clear without any hue if manufactured correctly.
Hope this helps your decision, but like other posters I am wondering why the window company simply isn't offering a and more-or-less standard dual-pane option.
Last edited by Oberon; 08-28-20 at 08:25 AM. Reason: spelling
#13
08-28-20, 08:42 AM
Group Moderator
I find it hard to believe that that glass could meet minimum standards for fenestration in California under title 24, part 6 California energy code. But there are a lot of things about Cali that are hard to understand. 
https://www.woodsidetown.org/sites/d...ation.2019.pdf
Maybe they don't classify it as an "alteration" if you are replacing like for like. (Historical replacement)
And I bet that by "weatherstripping" they were probably trying to describe the vinyl glazing boot that would be used to glaze (surround) the glass edge.
Weatherstripping would be applied to the sash or frame, not to the glass.
https://www.woodsidetown.org/sites/d...ation.2019.pdf
Maybe they don't classify it as an "alteration" if you are replacing like for like. (Historical replacement)
And I bet that by "weatherstripping" they were probably trying to describe the vinyl glazing boot that would be used to glaze (surround) the glass edge.
Weatherstripping would be applied to the sash or frame, not to the glass.
#14
08-28-20, 10:02 AM
And I bet that by "weatherstripping" they were probably trying to describe the vinyl glazing boot that would be used to glaze (surround) the glass edge.
That was my thought as well
That was my thought as well
#15
08-28-20, 05:28 PM
Hi, thank you all for the responses.
XSleeper - Thanks for clarifying the definition. I'm familiar with new construction windows vs. replacement windows. New construction is what we had to do at the front of the house a few years ago. This is definitely a 'replacement window' job.
Norm201 - Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately, we would not be capable of doing this work ourselves. Other than both of us working full time and not having the time to do this, we really have no expertise and would likely not do a god job of it, although I would love to be able to do that! Our house is from 1941, and these are original wood windows which I'm assuming are not standard sizes, or at least I don't think they are.
Oberon - not an overkill at all : ) Thank you so much for taking the time to comment on each aspect of my message. It all makes sense to me. I tried to reach the rep today to ask her to explain what the weather stripping looks like, where it's applied and why they only apply it when they install laminated glass. I wasn't able to reach her. Looking back at my notes from Tuesday, she had said the weather stripping would go on the 'jamb'. I looked up images of jamb online, and it's definitely not around the glass. I will call again Monday. When I talked to her on Tuesday, I asked her about the putty on the outside, and she said they use wood stops and epoxy instead of putty. This is regardless of the type of glass. She included that in the estimate I attached. Is it standard to use 'stops' instead of putty? I don't even know what that would look like. I need to ask her to send me images. I will also ask her if they make dual pane windows. She is an interesting person - older woman (based on her voice), lives in San Francisco, has clearly been in the business for a long time (the company is from 1972) and has her own opinions. Initially when I spoke with her, she expressed that she doesn't like dual pane windows because they fail. I don't know if that's true when they're wood on the outside and they're not properly maintained. Our clad-wood dual pane Marvin windows in the front of the house are amazing. But again, this is the inner courtyard, and we don't want to spend 10K to replace them with standard brand dual pane clad wood. We just want working windows. We did get an estimate from another window maker who does make dual pane, so it sounds from everything everyone said here that this is the way to go. And the difference between single glass and dual pane was only $1000. If using wood stops and epoxy is better than putty, maybe we can ask the other company to do the same if we move forward with them.
XSleeper - Thanks for clarifying the definition. I'm familiar with new construction windows vs. replacement windows. New construction is what we had to do at the front of the house a few years ago. This is definitely a 'replacement window' job.
Norm201 - Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately, we would not be capable of doing this work ourselves. Other than both of us working full time and not having the time to do this, we really have no expertise and would likely not do a god job of it, although I would love to be able to do that! Our house is from 1941, and these are original wood windows which I'm assuming are not standard sizes, or at least I don't think they are.
Oberon - not an overkill at all : ) Thank you so much for taking the time to comment on each aspect of my message. It all makes sense to me. I tried to reach the rep today to ask her to explain what the weather stripping looks like, where it's applied and why they only apply it when they install laminated glass. I wasn't able to reach her. Looking back at my notes from Tuesday, she had said the weather stripping would go on the 'jamb'. I looked up images of jamb online, and it's definitely not around the glass. I will call again Monday. When I talked to her on Tuesday, I asked her about the putty on the outside, and she said they use wood stops and epoxy instead of putty. This is regardless of the type of glass. She included that in the estimate I attached. Is it standard to use 'stops' instead of putty? I don't even know what that would look like. I need to ask her to send me images. I will also ask her if they make dual pane windows. She is an interesting person - older woman (based on her voice), lives in San Francisco, has clearly been in the business for a long time (the company is from 1972) and has her own opinions. Initially when I spoke with her, she expressed that she doesn't like dual pane windows because they fail. I don't know if that's true when they're wood on the outside and they're not properly maintained. Our clad-wood dual pane Marvin windows in the front of the house are amazing. But again, this is the inner courtyard, and we don't want to spend 10K to replace them with standard brand dual pane clad wood. We just want working windows. We did get an estimate from another window maker who does make dual pane, so it sounds from everything everyone said here that this is the way to go. And the difference between single glass and dual pane was only $1000. If using wood stops and epoxy is better than putty, maybe we can ask the other company to do the same if we move forward with them.
Last edited by rimael; 08-28-20 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Corrected name
#16
08-29-20, 08:33 AM
Rimael, you're welcome and I am glad that my comments helped.
I am really curious about the window company that you are talking with, and even more so about the window rep. Honestly I am floored by what you are being told by the window company rep, and I am wondering if what she is saying is a reflection on the company, or on her, or on both.
You described weatherstriping perfectly in your previous post, and that she suggested it was industry standard to use it on laminated glass windows but not on non-laminated glass windows is ludicrous and no where close to being even remotely factual. After you had mentioned it the first time, I was at a loss and since I knew that she couldn't be talking about actual weatherstripping, she had to be talking about something else...apparently she wasn't.
You can't use linseed oil based window putty when installing IG units (dual pane) or laminated glass because the linseed oil will attack the the sealants in the IG and the interlayer in the laminated glass causing failure. Beyond that, with the exception of small usually highly customized shops, you really won't find any window company that uses putty to glaze windows. In modern windows the glass is held in place by a glazing bead against a fixed stop. The glazing bead may snap into place or it could be attached using brads or staples or even tiny screws. Also there is usually going to be either glazing tape or silicone or other adhesive sealant between the stop and the glass. However, I don't know any company that uses an epoxy in that application, and i would never recommend using an epoxy in any case because it lacks flexibility.
Despite what the window company rep believes, dual pane windows don't all fail. While most IG units (especially for vinyl windows) are manufactured by the window company, over 1/3 of all IG units used in the US and Canada are manufactured by Cardinal Glass. I mention Cardinal because 1) they are more than 1/3 of all IGU's produced, 2) they closely monitor and track field failures, and 3) because that's who manufactured the IG units in your Marvin windows.
Do they fail?
Cardinal projected a .25% failure rate over 20 years and .5% over 50 years for their XL spacer based IGU system when it was introduced in 1992. In the 28 years since introduction, the XL field failure rate is almost dead-on .20%, .05% better than predicted. A few years back Cardinal introduced the Endur spacer system that improves energy performance while maintaining the long term reliability of the XL. Also since Cardinal has something close to 500,000,000 IG units currently under warranty, not having failures is something that they are very focused on.
Although it's pretty much impossible to accurately track, the remaining 2/3rds of dual pane units produced are generally claimed (or extrapolated) to have failure rates of somewhere between <1% to >6% based on the system used, the quality of the manufacturing facility, and the diligence of the company to track the data. Although there are a few specific outliers that are much worse than the 1-6%, information that I have seen does seem to support those numbers.
In any case, the actual data pretty much repudiates the window rep's opinion of not using dual pane glass units because they fail.
I am also curious how the window company proposes working around title 24 using single pane glass?
I am really curious about the window company that you are talking with, and even more so about the window rep. Honestly I am floored by what you are being told by the window company rep, and I am wondering if what she is saying is a reflection on the company, or on her, or on both.
You described weatherstriping perfectly in your previous post, and that she suggested it was industry standard to use it on laminated glass windows but not on non-laminated glass windows is ludicrous and no where close to being even remotely factual. After you had mentioned it the first time, I was at a loss and since I knew that she couldn't be talking about actual weatherstripping, she had to be talking about something else...apparently she wasn't.
You can't use linseed oil based window putty when installing IG units (dual pane) or laminated glass because the linseed oil will attack the the sealants in the IG and the interlayer in the laminated glass causing failure. Beyond that, with the exception of small usually highly customized shops, you really won't find any window company that uses putty to glaze windows. In modern windows the glass is held in place by a glazing bead against a fixed stop. The glazing bead may snap into place or it could be attached using brads or staples or even tiny screws. Also there is usually going to be either glazing tape or silicone or other adhesive sealant between the stop and the glass. However, I don't know any company that uses an epoxy in that application, and i would never recommend using an epoxy in any case because it lacks flexibility.
Despite what the window company rep believes, dual pane windows don't all fail. While most IG units (especially for vinyl windows) are manufactured by the window company, over 1/3 of all IG units used in the US and Canada are manufactured by Cardinal Glass. I mention Cardinal because 1) they are more than 1/3 of all IGU's produced, 2) they closely monitor and track field failures, and 3) because that's who manufactured the IG units in your Marvin windows.
Do they fail?
Cardinal projected a .25% failure rate over 20 years and .5% over 50 years for their XL spacer based IGU system when it was introduced in 1992. In the 28 years since introduction, the XL field failure rate is almost dead-on .20%, .05% better than predicted. A few years back Cardinal introduced the Endur spacer system that improves energy performance while maintaining the long term reliability of the XL. Also since Cardinal has something close to 500,000,000 IG units currently under warranty, not having failures is something that they are very focused on.
Although it's pretty much impossible to accurately track, the remaining 2/3rds of dual pane units produced are generally claimed (or extrapolated) to have failure rates of somewhere between <1% to >6% based on the system used, the quality of the manufacturing facility, and the diligence of the company to track the data. Although there are a few specific outliers that are much worse than the 1-6%, information that I have seen does seem to support those numbers.
In any case, the actual data pretty much repudiates the window rep's opinion of not using dual pane glass units because they fail.
I am also curious how the window company proposes working around title 24 using single pane glass?
#17
08-29-20, 08:00 PM
Oberon,
Thank you so much for again taking the time to respond with all these details and the data. You've given me so much information. I now know I need to ask more probing questions from any company we move forward with but especially this one.
I need to understand from her why she thinks dual pane windows fail and how single glass meets or doesn't meet the California energy code. I will also ask her to explain again how they would use epoxy and will be asking other companies how they glaze the windows, especially if we decide to go with dual pane so we don't end up with linseed oil based putty.
You and everyone have been so helpful. Thank you so much.
Rimael
Thank you so much for again taking the time to respond with all these details and the data. You've given me so much information. I now know I need to ask more probing questions from any company we move forward with but especially this one.
I need to understand from her why she thinks dual pane windows fail and how single glass meets or doesn't meet the California energy code. I will also ask her to explain again how they would use epoxy and will be asking other companies how they glaze the windows, especially if we decide to go with dual pane so we don't end up with linseed oil based putty.
You and everyone have been so helpful. Thank you so much.
Rimael
