kitchen circuits and I am in a bind!!!

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  #1  
Old 08-20-02, 09:44 PM
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kitchen circuits and I am in a bind!!!

I am sorry to read that WG {and possibly John Nelson} may have left the forum. John along with others discovered an important code violation in my kitchen wiring that must be corrected before my house inspection Friday!

Please accept my apologies for my impatience, but I need to know if the corrections I have suggested in this thread are acceptable. I am doing the work in the evenings and have only two more evenings left.


As previously posted, I have three countertop outlets, an over-the-stove microwave outlet and a 110 gas stove outlet connected through a 20a GFCI to a single 20a breaker in my SUB panel. {In my previous post I found out I need two circuits} I have plenty of capacity in my main and sub panels to correct my mistakes and not cause any type of overload.

QUESTIONS

On my existing kitchen circuit fed from my SUB panel inside the laundry room, can I:

1. Connect the 20a GFCI {Counter outlet #1} to the 15a-rated outlet{counter outlet #2}

2. Connect EITHER the outlet for the over-stove microwave to same circuit AND/OR connect the 110volt plug for the gas stove.

THEN, TO CREATE THE REQUIRED SECOND CIRCUIT FOR THE KITCHEN COUNTERTOP OUTLETS:

1. Could I install a 20a breaker in my MAIN-panel to feed the required second circuit?

This circuit would feed the third and last GFCI countertop outlet, either the stove outlet and/or microwave outlet and balance the load between the two circuits.

{This would mean one kitchen circuit would feed from my SUB-panel in the laundry room and the second kitchen circuit would feed from the MAIN-panel located outside}
WOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE TO HAVE THE TWO REQUIRED CIRCUITS COMING FROM TWO DIFFERENT PANELS ON THE SAME POWER METER?

I copied the previous thread below if it helps any:


Sparksone42

"...it would appear that you ran only ONE 20a circuit for the small appliance receptacles that are located in the kitchen for the countertop. If this is true then you do have violation!! The code requires a "minimum" of two small appliance circuits in every dwelling in the kitchen. If you only ran one then you will need to run a second circuit."


Housemarried
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This is what I have:
One circuit for the fridge
One circuit for the dishwasher
One circuit for the disposal
One circuit for the countertop, stove and microwave hood {5 outlets}


John Nelson

"Code requires you to have two 20-amp GFCI protected circuits for the counter receptacles, and you may have no lighting on either of these circuits"


Housemarried

AND LASTLY

Thank you to all for not being overly-critical of my mistakes. I understand the danger and responsibility of electrical work. I completed my electrical training over fifteen years ago and went into a different line of work. I consider myself a decent electrician have kept myself in practice over the years without any mishaps.
When people ask me a more-than-basic electrical related question I refer them to a full time electrician.

The mistakes in my kitchen were made by myself and the city inspector whom I consulted when I pulled my permit. Both he and I honestly considered the two separate dishwasher and disposal circuits AND lighting on the kitchen circuit as within the code requirement. In any case, it is still my responsibility to make sure everything is done according to code.
 
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Old 08-21-02, 06:16 AM
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If it was mine I think I would want them coming from the same panel,, just so it wasnt a mix and match thing. I believe John said there is an exception for connectiong the gas stove to one of the kitchen circuits also.
 
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Old 08-21-02, 09:23 AM
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The breakers for the kitchen branch-circuit can be in seperate panels. If you must connect an additional home-run I suggest you use a 12/3 cable which provides two 20-amp circuits. The Black of the 12/3 would terminate on a counter-top receptacle making that receptacle a seperate-circuit. The Red could connect to the Black that previously was feeding the receptacle and this Black would "back-feed" to the receptacle it was connected to at it's other end so that receptacle would be another seperate-circuit.----for example---You have 3 counter-top receptacles,L,C, and R on one 2-wire 20 amp circuit, with a 12/2 home-run to L,12/2 from L to C, and 12/2 from C to R. You run a 12/3 to the R receptacle and the Black of the 12/3 connects to the R receptacle which is now a seperate circuit. At the C receptacle you dis-connect the Black of the 12/2 feeding from the L receptacle and at the R receptacle connect the Black of the 12/2 to the Red of the 12/3 and the C receptacle is now a seperate-circuit.At the L receptacle you to dis-connect the Black that was feeding the C receptacle and the L receptacle is now another seperate-circuit.You now have: Black of the 12/2 home-run to the L receptacle, Red of the12/3 home-run to Black 12/2 to C receptacle, and Black of the 12 HR to the R receptacle.Of course you could bring the 12/3 to the C receptacle and seperate the circuits at that point. You'll have to determine how the existing 12/2 cables are connected between the outlet boxes to decide which procedure is best.---Good Luck!!!
 
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Old 08-21-02, 07:14 PM
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PATTBAA and SBERRY27 I cannot thank you enough! I know I can run both required kitchen circuits using the 12/3 idea IF and this is a big IF! I do not have to alternate the feeds of the outlets.

EXAMPLE:

LEFT and CENTER outlets {both on the SOUTH wall}would be on one circuit...
RIGHT outlet {on the NORTH wall} would be on the second circuit.

I can only feed the 12/3 to the RIGHT{north} outlet, connect it with the red wire, then feed the CENTER and LEFT {south} outlets from the black wire of the 12/3. This would mean BOTH outlets on the south wall will be on the same circuit - IS THIS OKAY?

Also, I am going to run the power for the gas stove and microwave hood out thru the wall to its own circuit in the outside main panel. This will completely remove them from the kitchen outlet scene.

Thanks again guys, if you find yourself heading to the south Florida area for any reason let me know - I owe you at least a dinner or two!
 
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Old 08-22-02, 07:40 PM
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I don't know about screwing around with 12/3. Maybe it's fine. I prefer separate runs, but that is not because of Code. All I know is that if you have two 20A circuits dedicated to small appliance branch circuit receptacles only, with no lighting or other ckts. connected, you will be alright. If connecting a major appliance such as DW ior disposal, that appliance must occupy no more than 50% of the circuit's rating. Personally, I preferred to put my DW and refrigerator on separate ckt. I bought a 30 space panel for this reason. Code does not require fridge on separate ckt.)

Hope that's helpful.

Juice
 
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Old 08-23-02, 05:02 AM
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Thanks Juicehead,

The 12/3 solution is safe and to code. Otherwise I have to completely rip out kitchen cabinets, sinks and drywall - a 7 month long kitchen remodel just to to wire one outlet!

The lights are on a separate circuit
The fridge is on a separate circuit
The dishwasher is on a separate 20a circuit with a GFCI
The disposal is on a separate circuit with a GFCI

Then after the changes I will make:

One counter outlet will be on a separate 20a circuit with a GFCI
Three counter outlets will be on another 20a circuit with a GFCI
Outlets for the gas stove and microwave hood will be on a 15a breaker {wired with 12/2 in case it needed to be upgraded to a 20a breaker}
 
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Old 08-27-02, 07:55 PM
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You kick butt! You have over-done it and should have no problem whatsoever.

Juice
 
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Old 08-27-02, 08:26 PM
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Thanks!

I now have 7 circuit breakers for an 8'x10' kitchen! When I bought the house I only had 10 screw-in fuses in a 100 amp panel for the entire house!
 
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Old 08-27-02, 08:47 PM
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Housemarried,

You are in real luck or maybe bad luck based on a possible redo you might need.
Boynton Beach follows the code requirements for Palm Beach County. Consequently there may be some changes depending on how much reconstruction you did. If only cabinets and you are adding outlets to existing the local inspector my allow what you have.
However, for Palm Beach County, in which I am a licensed electrician, you can only have two outlets on any new circuits and they must be alternated with other outlets on the counter. All must be GFI.
The stove may be on one of those circuits because it has no load really. The micro wave is a separate circuit as well. However it does not need to be GFI nor does the dishwasher or disposal.
Reason, they are designated circuits for specific appliances not general all purpose outlets. Same for refrigerator.
I have not been on this board in over a year and just happened to see your post.
If you already have this done, which it seems, I would go through the inspection to see if it will fly. You get two inspections before you need to reapply for an additional fee.
 
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Old 08-27-02, 09:09 PM
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I have three counter outlets - two on one circuit and one on its own circuit - this meets code? The outlets on either side of the stove are on circuit A and the outlet on the opposite wall is on circuit B.

BUT

lets say I have a real long countertop with six circuits on it. I would have a maximum of two outlets on each circuit breaker for a total of three circuit breakers {for my example we will call them A, B and C}

looking at my countertop the outlets could not be wired:

A A B B C C

but could be wired:

A B C A B C

or any combination as long as two outlets of the same circuit were not side by side?

I have dropped over $7000 in this kitchen with cabinets, plumbing, drywall and electrical. All of my work has been top notch and to code except for this countertop outlet fiasco. The fiasco was created when I spoke to the inspector who told me the separate breakers for the dishwasher, disposal and fridge met the code requirements for separate appliance circuits. Two outlets are located on one wall and are on the same circuit breaker. One outlet is on the opposing wall and on a different breaker. I had to rip out 32 square feet of plaster wall, drill through concrete walls and bury conduit to correct their mistake once. I am not going to rip out $7K worth of sweat equity for one #@%#$^%$ outlet!
 
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Old 08-28-02, 05:46 AM
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In my town, the hood microwave must be on own 20 amp breaker. A conter microwave does not. Also the local will not allow 12/3 on kictern circuit although it legal by NEC, they claim it possible to get 240 on the netrual so they do not like it, and problems with gfi down stream.
 
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Old 08-28-02, 01:26 PM
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NEC Art 210-Branch-Circuits, Sec III Required outlets, 210.52 Dwelling Receptacle Outlets, (B) Small Appliances (1)---"In the kitchen two or more 20 amp small-appliance circuits shall serve all receptacle outlets."------(3) Kitchen receptacle requirements---"Receptacles installed in a kitchen counter-top shall be supplied by not fewer than two small -appliance branch-circuits (which) shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen"
 
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Old 08-28-02, 02:32 PM
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PATTBAA,

Could you translate that a little bit?


I know I have to have at least two circuit breakers in my kitchen for my three outlets. {A and B} I understand that completely...
Do I have to alternate them? Along the counter can they be A then A then B or do they have to be A then B then A???

Again, the stove and microwave outlets will have a different breaker than the counter outlets.
 
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Old 08-28-02, 02:40 PM
broadway
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housemarried,

You have learned a lesson.
Let the pros do it, they screw up, it may be more time, but the cost is all on them. You do it, the cost is on you.
That is why I get the big bucks......LOL.
 
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Old 08-28-02, 04:38 PM
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TO OTHERS WHO ASSISTED ME APPROPRIATELY, PLEASE DISREGARD THIS MESSAGE

Broadway,

I welcome yours and others assistance if you choose to provide it. Unless you are aware of the entire situation - keep your negative comments to your self

I am in this screw up because I did EXACTLY WHAT A PRO TOLD ME TO DO! Please check out my original post regarding this issue if you would like to know the WHOLE story!

I was told by THE INSPECTOR - THE PRO THAT SEPARATE CIRCUIT BREAKERS FOR THE COUNTERTOP WERE NOT NEEDED SINCE THE FRIDGE, DISHWASHER AND DISPOSAL WERE ON THEIR OWN BREAKERS. MY PLANS WERE SIGNED OFF BY THE CITY AND I BEGAN MY WORK. IT WAS AFTER I COMPLETED MY WORK THAT THE INSPECTOR - THE PRO SAID THERE WAS AN ERROR. THE PROBLEM IS MINE EVEN THOUGH THE CITY ADMITTED THE ERROR IN APPROVING THE PLANS.

HAD I DONE IT MY WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE I WOULD HAVE BEEN TO CODE AND WOULDN'T BE READING A COMMENT SUCH AS YOURS...BIG MONEY PRO
 
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Old 08-28-02, 08:23 PM
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You do not need to alternate, but you can if you want, and it's not a bad idea.
 
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Old 08-28-02, 08:33 PM
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Hey John, glad to hear {read} from you!

Looking further into a corrective plan of action I will be able to alternate the circuits for the counter AND have a separate circuit for the over head microwave and range outlets.

Do you know if the NEC codebook is available electronically online? The big book store wants big $$$$$ for a new copy.

Again, to everyone please accept my gratitude for your help and an apology for my previous response to a certain "pro". Negative posts are out of character for me but I felt it was justified.
 
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Old 08-28-02, 08:53 PM
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As far as I know, the NEC is not available on-line. It used to be a couple of years ago, but this violated the copyright, so the site was forced to remove it. A copy can be had for about $60, but it is available for reference at almost all public libraries.

As an unsolicited piece of advice, I have found that it is best to completely ignore negative and offensive posts.
 
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Old 08-29-02, 04:54 PM
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Below is the rules that apply to this subject. Hope this helps clear things up as to the rules and using the Handbook commentary to clear up the accepted intent of those NEC rules. Remember that the Handbook commentary is explanatory only and not enforcable in most jurisdictions. Only the NEC rules may be normally enforcable. Don't normally post this much copied section but seems to be some verification needed in this post.

Hope this helps

Wg

Copied section of 2002 NEC;

210.11
(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
(C) Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (5).
(1) Wall Counter Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
(2) Island Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.
(3) Peninsular Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (2), and (3).
(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.
Exception: To comply with the conditions specified in (a) or (b), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.
(a) Construction for the physically impaired.
(b) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Section 210.52(B) requires two or more 20-ampere circuits for all receptacle outlets for the small-appliance loads, including refrigeration equipment, in the kitchen, dining room, pantry, and breakfast room of a dwelling unit. The countertop receptacle outlets in kitchens must be supplied by no fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits. These circuits may also supply receptacle outlets in the pantry, dining room, and breakfast room, as well as an electric clock receptacle and electric loads associated with gas-fired appliances, but these circuits are to have no other outlets. See 210.8(A)(6) and (7) for GFCI requirements for receptacles serving countertop surfaces.
No restriction is placed on the number of outlets connected to a general-lighting or small-appliance branch circuit. The minimum number of receptacle outlets in a room is determined by 210.52(A) based on the room perimeter. It may be desirable to provide more than the minimum number of receptacle outlets required, thereby further reducing the need for extension cords.
Exhibit 210.25 illustrates the application of the requirements of 210.52(B)(1), (2), and (3). The small-appliance branch circuits illustrated are not permitted to serve any other outlets, such as might be connected to exhaust hoods or fans, disposals, or dishwashers. The countertop receptacles are also required to be supplied by these two circuits. Receptacles installed to serve countertop surfaces are required to be GFCI protected in accordance with 210.8(A)(6). The dining room switched receptacle on a 15-ampere general-purpose branch circuit is permitted according to 210.52(B)(1), Exception No. 1. The refrigerator receptacle supplied by a 15-ampere individual branch circuit (Exhibit 210.25, bottom) is permitted by 210.52(B)(1), Exception No. 2.

Exception No. 1 to 210.52(B)(1) permits switched receptacles supplied from general-purpose 15-ampere branch circuits to be located in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, and similar areas. See 210.70(A) and Exhibit 210.25 for details.

Exception No. 2 to 210.52(B)(1) allows a choice for refrigeration equipment receptacle outlets located in a kitchen or similar area. An individual 15-ampere or larger branch circuit may serve this equipment, or it may be included in the 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuit. Refrigeration equipment is also exempt from the GFCI requirements of 210.8. See Exhibit 210.25 for an illustration.

Exception No. 2 to 210.52(B)(2) allows the small electrical loads associated with gas-fired appliances to be connected to small-appliance branch circuits. See Exhibit 210.25 for an illustration.

Dwelling unit receptacles that serve countertop spaces in kitchens, dining areas, and similar rooms, as illustrated in Exhibit 210.26, are required to be installed as follows:
(1) In each wall space wider than 12 in. and spaced so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 in. from a receptacle
(2) Not more than 20 in. above the countertop [According to 406.4(E), receptacles cannot be installed in a face-up position. Receptacles installed in a face-up position in a countertop could collect crumbs, liquids, and other debris, resulting in a potential fire or shock hazard.]
(3) At each countertop island and peninsular countertop with a short dimension of at least 12 in. and a long dimension of at least 24 in. (The measurement of a peninsular-type countertop is from the edge connecting to the nonpeninsular counter.)
(4) Accessible for use and not blocked by appliances occupying dedicated space or fastened in place
(5) Fed from two or more of the required 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits and GFCI protected according to 210.8(A)(6)
For the 2002 Code, the maximum permitted height of a receptacle serving a countertop was revised in 210.52(C)(5) upward from 18 in. to 20 in. as a practical consideration.
 
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Old 08-29-02, 05:37 PM
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Wgoodrich, THANK YOU!

I now see where I think the city inspector's confusion came from and that my corrections coincide with the NEC, the city inspector and the code requirements.
 
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Old 08-30-02, 12:41 PM
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Housemarried, you seem to be one of the most concerned and able lay people I have transacted with on this site. (And I agree with your assesment of negative commentary by an individual who seems to resent ordinary folk doing their own electrical work. I wonder if he hires a union plumber to change a faucet washeror plunge his plugged toilet, or perhaps hires a union painter to change the color of his dining room.)

Anyway, much NEC info can be obtained from this very useful website:

http://www.mikeholt.com/

Hope that helps.

Juice
 
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Old 08-30-02, 09:12 PM
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Thanks Juicehead,

I am a proud new homeowner who is even more proud when I can say "I did it myself and it is above the standard"

I think it was destiny that I had to add an extra circuit to my kitchen. For six months I have been contemplating returning this extra 20a breaker I bought by mistake, but didn't because I couldn't find the reciept! {can you hear the Twilight Zone music in the background!}
 
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