My first wiring plan

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  #1  
Old 11-12-02, 06:17 PM
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Question My first wiring plan

I'd like you guys to take a look at the first draft of my wiring plan for my bathroom/mudroom addition. I am planning on doing all the work myself, and I'm learning as I go.

The .jpg's are posted at these locations:

http://bobparadise.0catch.com/bathroom-plan.jpg
http://bobparadise.0catch.com/mudroom-plan.jpg
http://bobparadise.0catch.com/exterior-plan.jpg

I appreciate any and all input. I think I'm on the right track... I'd feel better if you assured me of that.

I plan on showing my final draft to the inspector prior to doing ANY work, and of course will have it inspected properly.

(note: the (X) after every wire gauge designation is for my use.. I'm going to label each run of wire and draw a diagram to wire it properly.)

Also feel free to email me directly at [email protected] if you have any questions. Thank you in advance...

Brian
 
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Old 11-12-02, 07:00 PM
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I've only looked at the bathroom one so far. I have a few comments and a lot of questions.

I realize that this is a big bathroom, but why so many receptacles in a bathroom? You could get by with just one!

The receptacle near the door is not GFCI protected -- but it must be! You've got two GFCI receptacles in series near the sinks -- a waste of $8 for the second one. You seem to be under the impression that only receptacles near the sink need GFCI protection -- not so, all of them do.

The switch near the door controls the switch for the toilet area light. Do you really want this? It is highly unusual.

Don't understand the 12/3 between the lights. If this an attempt to provide continuous power for the receptacles while providing switched power for the lights, it isn't enough. You also need 12/3 between the switch and the first light.

And why the junction box -- it's just something you don't really need and you will need to provide permanent accessibility to. I'd omit it and just run the cable over the door from the first switch box.
 
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Old 11-12-02, 07:25 PM
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Now I'm looking at the mudroom plan. You show 14/2 from a 3-way switch to a light to another 3-way switch. These cables must be 14/3.

Again, I don't see the need for a junction box. It's a waste.
 
  #4  
Old 11-12-02, 07:30 PM
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Finally the exterior plan. You don't show any GFCI here, but you need it. And it would be useful to know how far away that shed was, and what you planned to run off those receptacles -- that will allow us to judge if voltage drop is tolerable. The inspector will also appreciate it if you mark on the diagram how deep you plan to bury that UF cable, and what kind of surface is above it (e.g., yard, driveway).

A note on all diagrams. You have a fondness for using 12/3 to run from a switch to a switched light so that you can continue unswitched power on to receptacles. This will work okay, but it's a waste to run the unswitched wire through the light box. I suggest instead that you simply run one switched 12/2 from the switch to the light, and a second unswitched 12/2 from the switch box to the receptacles.
 
  #5  
Old 11-13-02, 08:58 AM
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Question Wiring Plan

John,

See below.

BATHROOM

Here's why I have as many receptacles as I do: I want one under each window for what may be a stupid reason... christmas lights. They're under other windows in my house, and they're very convienient for that. I also will keep the one near the entry door, since it's the only one in that area. I think I'll lose the one behind the toilet. The receptacle just outside the shower is there for a portable heater (we use one occasionally now).

I wasn't sure about the GFCI's by the sink. I know that the first one will protect the rest in the circuit, but for some reason I thought that both near the sink had to be actual GFCI receptacles.

I'll change the receptacle by the door to a GFCI. Is it because of its proximity to the sinks, or do all receptacles in a bathroom have to be protected?

I want the switch by the door to turn on both lights, but I want to have the ability to switch off the light in the toilet area (hence the switch in there). Personal preference, for reasons I won't bore you with.

I will add 12/3 between the switch and first sink light... I want continuous power. I wasn't sure about that (still learning).

I also wasn't sure about the junction box...If I go from the main panel to the first receptacle, I would have one wire coming into that box, and three coming out (one to vent fan, one to ceiling lights, one around wall). Is that OK? Seemed like a lot of wires, but again, I'm learning. If it makes a difference, the junction box would be in an accessible location below the floor.


MUDROOM

I'll change the cables to 14/3 as you mentioned. I also will omit the junction box in this room.

EXTERIOR

Are you saying that the weatherproof receptacle here needs to be GFCI protected? Would I want to protect the rest of the circuit after that? I would possibly be using power tools in that shed, and even an air compressor. Does that affect whether a circuit should be GFCI protected or not?

The shed is approximately 50 feet from the corner of the house, or about 90 feet to the main panel. Wiring will be buried whatever it needs to be by code... I'll find that out and mark all of this on the plan. It's also under grass.

GENERAL

Regarding the 12/3 thing... I didn't choose one way or the other... the book that I have shows how to do it that way. The way you explain sounds easier and better to me, and I 'll most likely change my plan to reflect that.

I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your input. This is a challenge to me, but with some help I'll figure it out and do it right. With no prior experience, I've already framed and built the entire addition, ran heat to it, and plumbed it--all to code and done well.

I'd like to hear your responses to the information above, then I'll update my plan and post it again. Would you be open to me emailing you directly? If not, that's fine and I'll keep it in the forum, but I think you alone can get me where I need to be.

Thanks again!

Brian Mears
 
  #6  
Old 11-13-02, 09:29 AM
MTgets
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Very nice detailed layout,

One reccommendation though on that whirlpool:

Our inspectors like to see a faceless GFI in a single gang box outside of the whirlpool, not hidden under the removeable skirt. The 15amp feed from the panel will go to the line side of this GFI and from the load side take a cable to a standard duplex receptacle again roughed in a single gang box in by the motor area.

Make sure you know what side the pump motor is on, the factory installed cord is only 2-3feet long, not long enough to hit the other wall.
This faceless GFI I recommend is a standard GFI but without any slots to plug into, therefore you cants put anything in the circiut because it calls for a dedicated one.
 
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Old 11-13-02, 09:44 AM
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Thanks. I'm curious... what does having the faceless GFI outside the removeable skirt do for you (what is the advantage)?
 
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Old 11-13-02, 09:51 AM
MTgets
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It doesnt do anything for me(Im not that kind of guy) but it must for the inspectors and whirlpool installers.

I do like it because it doesnt hide a resettable device, think of the next homeowner trying to figure out why he has no power, and he logs into DOITYOURSELF 2015 and John Nelson has arthritis from typing in the long schpell about how to locate a "hidden"gfi in a house for 20 years!

See John, Im doing it for your sake!
 
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Old 11-13-02, 12:26 PM
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Thanks MT for looking out for me.

ALL receptacles in a bathroom need to be GFCI protected, whether they are over the sink or a long ways from it. There is no code or safety difference between providing GFCI protection with a GFCI receptacle at the outlet, or providing it with an upstream GFCI receptacle. If you omit the junction box and daisy chain everything, one GFCI receptacle (probably the one near the door) will be all you need to protect the entire bathroom circuit.

I prefer to minimize the number of receptacles in a bathroom in order to avoid suggesting uses for them. It's better to keep as many electrical appliances out of the bathroom as you can.

You want to GFCI protect ALL exterior receptacles and ALL receptacles in that shed (even if they are "weatherproof"). Furthermore, you want to GFCI protect the UF cable itself in case of accidentally hitting it with a shovel. Code doesn't require you to GFCI protect the UF, but you will have to bury it much deeper if you don't.

I've never had a power tool trip a GFCI.

With regard to junction boxes, you need to educate yourself in how to compute box fill anyway. Then use the largest boxes you can find (probably 22.5 cubic inches). In most cases, you won't have any trouble with fill violations using receptacle boxes as junction boxes.

I'd prefer to keep this discussion in the forum. I make mistakes too, and it's comforting to have all these other knowledgeable people looking over what I say. It's better for you too, in case I'm not able to get you an answer as quickly as you'd like, or in case I don't know the answer.

Nice drawings! Are you using a CAD package?
 
  #10  
Old 11-13-02, 01:25 PM
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Thanks again. I will take all comments received into consideration and post "version 2" of my wiring plans, perhaps tonight.

I am using AutoCAD to do my plan... I use it (actually Mechanical Desktop) at work. I actually modeled most of my addition before I built it so I could get a feel for how things would look and work out.

Thanks...

Brian
 
  #11  
Old 11-13-02, 06:08 PM
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NEW PLANS

My updated plans are posted at the same location:

http://bobparadise.0catch.com/bathroom-plan.jpg
http://bobparadise.0catch.com/mudroom-plan.jpg
http://bobparadise.0catch.com/exterior-plan.jpg

I'm going to check with the inspector regarding the faceless GFCI for the whirlpool tub. Otherwise, I've updated everything else.

Take a look, & let me have it. Thanks!

Brian
 
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Old 11-13-02, 08:15 PM
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Sorry, but I think I caused you trouble. That GFCI receptacle box at the entrance to the bathroom has four 12/2 cables in it. You aren't going to be able to find a box big enough. Limit yourself to three 12/2 cables in any one single-gang box (expecially when trying to fit a large GFCI receptacle in it). I suggest you bring the power first into the switch box rather than the receptacle box (the lights don't need GFCI). This will solve that problem. Or you could take power from the last receptacle to the timer switch (through the ceiling).

Lots of things will work. Just limit yourself to three 12/2 in any one box.

What is that little sectioned off area in the lower right corner of the mudroom? That isn't for a washer/dryer, is it? If so, we have other issues. If it's a closet, then make sure you maintain clearance between the light and the shelving (it looks okay, but you have no measurements on the drawings).

By the way, all of your drawings would be better with measurements.

The UF cable should be protected with schedule 80 PVC conduit while above ground and until it reaches the bottom of the trench.

It's looking pretty good.
 
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Old 11-14-02, 05:15 AM
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The 'sectioned off' area is indeed a closet. The light in there isn't quite in the correct position... I just put it on the plan to show that there would be a fluorescent light in there. I've got some plumbing to deal with in that closet so I'll have to work that out.

I have lots of good info on the exterior circuit and what I need to do to run it. I don't have all that on the plan, but I assure you that it'll be done right.

Funny you should mention dimensions.... Just after I posted the new plans last night, I thought about how it might be good to have at least some overall dimensions on there, and I added them.

I moved the switch for the vent fan to the end of the run of outlets, and brought the power into the switch box like you suggested. Also, since the first outlet near the switch is GFCI protected, none of the other outlets (i.e. the ones by the sinks) need to be GFCI's... correct? My last plan still had one as GFCI.

"Revision 3" of the plans are posted at the same location. Take a look when you have a chance.

Once again, thank you.


Brian
 

Last edited by bmears; 11-14-02 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 11-14-02, 07:37 AM
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Yes, that one GFCI will be okay for all the receptacles (although I have heard of some GFCIs that specify a limit of three downstream receptacles, I have not seen that limit on any of the GFCIs I've installed).

I can't tell if this is a problem in your drawing, but you need 15" of clearance from the center-line of the toilet to the wall on either side. I can't tell if you have it or not -- looks like you're close.

You know, if you're in there taking a bath, and somebody uses the sink and turns off the light, you're going to be left in the dark. Code requires a switched light at the main entrance to every room. I hadn't seen that door before to the toilet/tub area. That seems to make it a separate room. The inspector may have problems with the light in there being dependent on the light on the other side of the bathroom. Better ask.
 
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Old 11-14-02, 04:02 PM
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I hadn't thought of the lights in that way. I guess you have a point... I'm going to change the lights to each have its own switch. Am I correct that I can simply change the 12/2 cable to the first light to 12/3 so I can continue unswitched power past the first light to the second?

I am aware of the minimum clearance for the toilet, and I'm actually 16 inches to center on both sides.

I made the change above and reposted the bathroom plan. Do you think I'm there on the other two (bathroom and exterior)? I already have a call in to the inspector to ask some questions and I'm hoping to be able to show him what I have.

Thanks...

Brian
 
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Old 11-14-02, 05:43 PM
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What you have would work, but it's much more complicated than it needs to be. You already have power in that switch right next to the timer switch. Why not just use that power? Then you don't need the 12/3 to the first light (use 12/2 instead) and you don't need the 12/2 from the light to the timer switch. And the box won't be so full of cables.

Other than that, I think you're good to go.
 
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Old 11-14-02, 06:14 PM
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I thought about that, but then the light would be on a GFCI protected circuit. So, if something were to trip the GFCI in the bathroom, the lights would go out as well... correct? I've been told that lights shouldn't be on a GFCI for that reason.

Unless I'm misunderstanding?
 
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Old 11-14-02, 06:53 PM
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I wouldn't worry about being left in the dark. The GFCI should very rarely trip. If it does, open the door.
 
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