I just found this site yesterday and wish I found it long ago... From the looks of the messages and replies, I'm in good company. Here goes...


I built a big deck and ran 120V wires from the outside breaker box to some outlets and ceiling fans in and on it. Please comment on the good and the bad below...maybe I can still fix something if there's a problem.

-I have the house meter with a small breaker box mounted on the front of my house (it looks like a single unit). I enclosed it with house siding and put a hinged door on the front with a good amount of room around the box.

-From this box, I ran a UF #12 from each side of an unused 20A double-throw breaker (I couldn't find any replacements at Home Depot - it's from the early 70's)

-...to a pair of blue plastic double gang boxes each with GFCI outlet and regular outlet (after GFCI) screwed (drywall screws on the inside of the box) just below the breaker box onto a 2x4.

-From one of these double gangs (after the GFCI), I ran a wire out of the back through a hole in the bottom of the siding enclosure (through 3/4" PVC pipe siliconed in place as a grommet)

-and stapled it to the bottom of a joist (~ every 14-16") and winding around supporting piers and from joist to joist in some places.

-I have outdoor-rated outlets both outside this covered porch area and inside...all are metal and I grounded them.

-I ran wires to pancake boxes mounted to 2x6's for future ceiling fans; I capped the wires and covered the boxes with supplied covers; pancakes are screwed to support with hole drilled in center

Any really wrong here? Nice comments also accepted.

 

If you reviewed Part 1...


-I built a covered porch with a shed roof (it comes straight down from the side of the house at 1" per foot); it has a plastic roof

-On the outside of the rafter header (just below where the plastic roof dumps rain water), I mounted some wet-rated floodlights

-I used a router to make a groove in the board behind the floodlight box (actually it's a circlular box), ran the wire out of the middle back of the box into the groove out to the side of the box and siliconed everything thoroughly - very nice tight seal, I think

-I ran the wire down the outside face of one of the supporting posts with staples every 12-14" or so

-When I got the wire to the bottom of the post, I drilled a hole through the joist header and ran it to the underside interior of the deck (it seemed safer that way)

-I ran this wire along the outlet and ceiling fan wire mentioned in Part 1; in some places, I put this wire on top of the other wire (for space reasons) and used one stapled to hold the top wire down (which also will hold the bottom wire, but the bottom wire was already stapled enough)

-When I got the wire back to the double-gang box at the outside breaker box, I put a two-prong outdoor plug on the end

-I plugged this into an X-10 lamp module and plugged the module into on of the GFCI outlets

-Now, I can control my floods from inside the house

Ok electrical wizards...let me have it.

 

Since you seem to know what's what, I don't want to insult you but-
You didn't run the neutral through that double pole breaker, did you? If so, that's a definite do-over.
Also, if you're running separate circuits through each pole, be advised that a fault on one will cause the second to trip as well.
Might complicate troubleshooting. Since a failure of the 30 year old ckt brkr will leave you in the dark any way, A simple pre-emptive change to new 1 pole 20A breakers in the panel feeding the 20A 2-pole might give you marginally greater peace of mind.
They're pretty cheap and then you can just remove the 2-pole altogether.

Other than that, it sounds about how I'd have done it. Applause.

 

Thanks for the feedback, grignon!

I don't think I know what you mean about running the neutral through the breaker. The neutral and ground for each of the wires was run to the grounding strip inside the breaker box. Only the black wires are run to the breakers. On the outlet end, I ran the ground wires to a screw inside the metal box.

So, my staple distances seem ok? I was reading something about every 4-8", but that seem way too excessive. And, doubling them up is ok, too?

I'm not a certified electrician by any stretch, but I've got a technical brain and am extremely careful...you should see how neat and orderly my wires are. I have to say that I am a bit worried about trying to sell the house and having an inspector reject some of what I've done. I just take incredible pride in knowing that I did it all myself.

 

Your best defense against the buyer's inspector, and against inadvertent hazards, is to get a permit and have your work approved by the city inspector.

Stapling is only required every 4.5 feet. And yes, you can put two cables under one staple.

There are a lot of rules on phsical protection. It's kind of hard to judge without seeing it. I am concerned by your "ran the wire down the outside face of one of the supporting posts" comment.

Neatness counts. Good for you.

 

Thanks for the advice. But, I fear city officials. Maybe I should have a certfied electrician take a look, huh? Or, would he turn me in if I didn't have him/her fix everything?

I have plans for the wire that is running down the outside of one of the 4x4 posts. I was going get a 1x4 as a cover plate and use a router to make a 1" wide grove in it that matched the travel of the wire stapled to the post. With the wooden cover plate in place, the wire would be hidden. Since I'm going to screen this porch in, this cover plate would also hide the screen edges that have been stapled.

Whatyathink?

 

Your cover idea is not legal. Someone could later put a nail in that 1x4 and puncture the wire. You must either get that cable at least 1.25" below the surface, or cover it with heavy metal.

I suggest you get over your fear, for your own safety. It is likely that you have introduced other code issues.

 

Ok, no skinny wooden cover. Bummer.

This is UF (outdoor/underground) cable (does that make a diff?) and it starts at about 4' off the ground and goes vertically up the post to a height of ~16' to a light. Stapled on top of this wire is another that goes this same route, but when it reaches the light it continues travel horizontally along the rafter header for 10' and then into a hole (in this rafter header) to service the ceiling fans inside the porch area.

This is where I get quite aggravated with code. I am totally in the woods...no neighbors...no kids...no stupid people...no one with a knife looking to cut electrical wires...etc. Ok, venting OFF.

When you say metal covering, conduit is ok, right? If so, does it need to end into the side of the metal box (with a connector) or, since it is completely out of reach of people without ladders or on stilts, can I just get the conduit near the box and run it (gasp) uncovered for a few inches to the box?

I'm a smartass, but I really appreciate your input.

 

Yes, I'd say just rout it out enough to allow room for conduit. If you don't, somebody (maybe you or a future owner) is sure to mount a flagpole here someday and pierce that cable.

People do occasionally get up on ladders you know!

The problem with inventing your own wiring methods is that you have no idea how many homes have burned down in the past due to other people who made the same invention. Most dangerous situations weren't known to be dangerous until after all the fire investigations.

Smartass comments are okay. But never get overconfident with electricity.

 

Ok, this is doable. Thank you for your patience.

Does the entire run of wire on the outside of this post need to be inside conduit all the way up to the light's box (including being connected to it) or just up to a certain height? The reason I ask is because I thought code allowed uncovered wires if there were not easily accessible, like above a certain height. (or, maybe this was just for interiors?) I've also got that wire that runs across the top rafter header on the outside...conduit needed here? or just leave it exposed (not covered) since it's not easily accessible (16' high)?

 

Originally posted by karen_z
"Ok, this is doable. Thank you for your patience.

Does the entire run of wire on the outside of this post need to be inside conduit all the way up to the light's box (including being connected to it) or just up to a certain height? The reason I ask is because I thought code allowed uncovered wires if there were not easily accessible, like above a certain height. (or, maybe this was just for interiors?) I've also got that wire that runs across the top rafter header on the outside...conduit needed here? or just leave it exposed (not covered) since it's not easily accessible (16' high)?"

Karen
Unless that post is adjacent to a walkway or driveway I think your UF cable is fine without any further protection. UF cable is run on exterior surfaces of buildings all of the time without additional protection and barring exposure to some likely source pf physical damage it should be OK.
--
Tom

 

The only time you would go around the back of the house on that side would be for crawlspace access. Doing so, you would walk right by the wire, which starts at about shoulder level before it travels up the support. I guess there could be a problem if you had really sharp teeth...

 

Originally posted by karen_z
"The only time you would go around the back of the house on that side would be for crawlspace access. Doing so, you would walk right by the wire, which starts at about shoulder level before it travels up the support. I guess there could be a problem if you had really sharp teeth... "

That being true the cable will only need protection if you conceal it within 1&1/4" of the surface behind which it is concealed.
--
Tom

 

Article 339-39(b) Type UF cable shall not be used in the following: (9) Where exposed to direct sun, unless identified as sunlight resistant. Does your cable say sunlight resistant?
(10) Where subject to physical damage

 

The cable does say "sunlight resistant". PHEW. But, that "subject to physical damage" clause sounds like it's could be widely subjective. My situation: The bottom of the deck is 4' and that's where the wire starts out before it goes vertically up the post. A maintenance person may walk by here a couple times a year...otherwise, there's nothing back here and no reason to be there...no yard, no doors, etc.

Question: If I sold the house and an inspector rules a circuit like this unsafe/not to code/whatever, could I physically disconnect it (cap the ends) and allow the future owners to make up their own minds about whether they wanted outdoor spotlights, outlets & fans? I mean, if there's no current, there's no hazard, right? Or, is just the intent bad enough?

 

If the home inspector (not a government official) finds a code violation, you are not required to do anything -- but if you don't, the buyer isn't required to buy either. What happens next is whatever you can negotiate with the buyer. I cannot imagine a buyer accepting some goofy solution. In most cases such as this, the buyer usually wins and gets it done right -- or you lose the sale.

If, however, someone (perhaps a new neighbor who is upset by your politics or your dog) reports this unpermitted work to the city -- and this can happen at any time -- you will likely be required to rip out all your work, no matter how much that costs, probably even the parts that are compliant with the code in effect at that future date (if the work is not completely open to inspection).

There are risks with flaunting the law, although you're far from being the first to do it.

 

Should I breakdown and pay an electrician to evaluate my situation? Cha-ching. Would he be likely to report me if I didn't pay him/her to fix any violations?

 

Just personal opinion, but I'd say your money would be better spent on a permit. As long as you can make all your work visible for inspection, you should be all right. In most areas, the inspector will be professional and helpful, and wants to help you find the easiest way to do it safely. And I'm sure you actually would prefer that your work be code-compliant.

You said before that you fear city officials. Do you have good reason to believe that the inspectors in your city are unreasonable? Of course, there are always bad apples, but let's hope your city isn't full of them.

 

Karen
Contact your electrical inspectors office and ask about the process to obtain a homeowner's permit. You may have to pass a quiz based on the electrical code for one and two family dwellings. If you can get a homeowner's permit you can then get inspection and that will put all future issues to rest.

I think that some here are making too big a deal out of this. By everything you have told us the job is code compliant. I think that if the work is carefully done, neat, and completely finished the likelihood of any future problem is very small. The fact is that most electrical contractors do not obtain permits for jobs on that scale. There are parts of the country were the regimen is much stricter so that is only true in many areas rather than all. I have never had UF cable run on the outside of a home away from finished walks or driveways even questioned let alone fail inspection. If the cable were close enough to the ground to be within reach of lawn care equipment or it had shrubbery that needs trimming right by it then there would be a concern but starting four feet off the ground I don't buy the concern.
--
Tom

 

So, invite the fox into the hen house, eh? Did I mention that I replaced my interior circuit-breaker box myself?

I really like the idea of being completely legal, but I'm afraid that they will surely find something big and reg-tag my hiney. For instance, "So, who was the electrician that did your work? . . . You mean that YOU did all of the wiring?!" GULP.

And, with my brand-new BIG, uninspected deck staring them in the face, they may just run me out of town for not getting their permission first...you know how fragile and territorial that male ego can be, dontchaknow? Gosh, I've got some big thinking to do about this.

I appreciate the input. I'm thinking that it might be easier to pay the piper sooner than later. (insert funeral music here)