New circuit installation
#1
11-30-03, 08:18 AM
New circuit installation
I would like to install a new circuit for a whirlpool bath and would like some clarification. I'll be running approx. 35 feet of wire up the wall, into the attic, outside the house (only of which 15 inches are outside) and into the junction box. Is half inch conduit large enough? The required eletrical specs for the circuit are 120V, 15A and 60Hz using a GFCI.
Can I use 14/2 Romex or does it require something larger like 12 or 10?
Is there checklist or something that professionals generally follow when connecting a circuit breaker? In other words, a procedure which will reduce the chance of me getting hurt or worse?
I've done a bit of electrical inside the house, running new wire, installing ceiling fans, etc. but never have installed a totally new circuit. Also, I don't mind hiring an electrician to do this, should that be a better way to go.
Thank you,
Kevin
wayfarer007@netzero.net
Can I use 14/2 Romex or does it require something larger like 12 or 10?
Is there checklist or something that professionals generally follow when connecting a circuit breaker? In other words, a procedure which will reduce the chance of me getting hurt or worse?
I've done a bit of electrical inside the house, running new wire, installing ceiling fans, etc. but never have installed a totally new circuit. Also, I don't mind hiring an electrician to do this, should that be a better way to go.
Thank you,
Kevin
wayfarer007@netzero.net
#2
11-30-03, 08:30 AM
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Re: New circuit installation
If you have never done work in a panel then get help from someone with experience.
It is a bad idea to run romex in conduit for any substantial length. measure the romex width at it's largest dimension. Using that with calculate the area of a circle with that diameter. double that area and you have the minimum cross sectional area of the conduit you must use to hold that cable. I would guess that you will need 3/4" conduit for that cable.
--
Tom H
(JN: edited to remove unnecessary quoting of previous post)
It is a bad idea to run romex in conduit for any substantial length. measure the romex width at it's largest dimension. Using that with calculate the area of a circle with that diameter. double that area and you have the minimum cross sectional area of the conduit you must use to hold that cable. I would guess that you will need 3/4" conduit for that cable.
--
Tom H
(JN: edited to remove unnecessary quoting of previous post)
Last edited by John Nelson; 11-30-03 at 09:10 AM.
#3
11-30-03, 09:17 AM
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1/2" PVC is probably enough but 3/4" will let you slide the wire in alot easier.
This is a case where I would run 12/2, even though the spec is for only a 15 amp circuit. We always run #12 to a tub.
A GFCI breaker (GFCB) is the way to go, as opposed to a receptacle. You will need an access panel to get to the electrical connections and the motor but if the GFI trips it may be a pain to get in there and reset it. The access is code and make sure it is big enough to get the motor out if it fails. I've seen the alternative and it's not pretty.
Install a single receptacle in a convenient spot under the tub so that the cord can reach.
Remember connections to a GFCB are different. The black & white go to the breaker. There is a white lead off the breaker which goes to the neutral buss. Ground goes typically to ground.
By the way, the code term for this is a "hydromassage tub".
This is a case where I would run 12/2, even though the spec is for only a 15 amp circuit. We always run #12 to a tub.
A GFCI breaker (GFCB) is the way to go, as opposed to a receptacle. You will need an access panel to get to the electrical connections and the motor but if the GFI trips it may be a pain to get in there and reset it. The access is code and make sure it is big enough to get the motor out if it fails. I've seen the alternative and it's not pretty.
Install a single receptacle in a convenient spot under the tub so that the cord can reach.
Remember connections to a GFCB are different. The black & white go to the breaker. There is a white lead off the breaker which goes to the neutral buss. Ground goes typically to ground.
By the way, the code term for this is a "hydromassage tub".
#4
11-30-03, 11:31 AM
Re: Re: New circuit installation
It is a bad idea to run romex in conduit for any substantial length.
Regardless, I would go through the trouble of keeping this installation in-wall if at all possible, even considering drywall repairs inside.
Fishing a new romex into a hot panel can be very dangerous, shut down the main and physically remove the meter before doing so. Burns cause by arc-flash are quite nasty, and proper protection should always be worn when working with a hot enclosure.
-Noxx
#5
11-30-03, 11:44 AM
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noxx-- Are you actually telling someone who questions running a new circuit to pull his meter??!!!!!
Regardless, in most states this is highly illegal, and quite unnecessary.
I would also try to keep the installation in the walls but this seems to not be on option for him, at least he didn't say it was.
The assembly (romex) in a conduit has been a contentious issue for some time now. Many say it can be done. In fact there is no direct refrence to the fact that you cannot. The code is like the law, as long as it doesn't say "you can't", you can.
I can provide a couple of links to code and contractor forums where this issue is being hotly debated.
Regardless, in most states this is highly illegal, and quite unnecessary.I would also try to keep the installation in the walls but this seems to not be on option for him, at least he didn't say it was.
The assembly (romex) in a conduit has been a contentious issue for some time now. Many say it can be done. In fact there is no direct refrence to the fact that you cannot. The code is like the law, as long as it doesn't say "you can't", you can.
I can provide a couple of links to code and contractor forums where this issue is being hotly debated.
#6
11-30-03, 12:03 PM
I'd certainly rather see unqualified personell pull a plug in meter than run amok in a hot panel.
You and I both know that the "correct" answer is to hire a licensed electrician, however as this is a DIY forum, I can simply suggest what seems "most safe" to me in light of folks insistence on their own work.
Legality on removing the meter btw depends largely on what view your local PoCo takes of it. Regardless, the homowner owns the enlcosure and may remove the meter for any legitimate work, altho in some areas it is required to notify Ed beforehand.
-Noxx
You and I both know that the "correct" answer is to hire a licensed electrician, however as this is a DIY forum, I can simply suggest what seems "most safe" to me in light of folks insistence on their own work.
Legality on removing the meter btw depends largely on what view your local PoCo takes of it. Regardless, the homowner owns the enlcosure and may remove the meter for any legitimate work, altho in some areas it is required to notify Ed beforehand.
-Noxx
#8
11-30-03, 02:38 PM
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noxx, is this prohibition against running NM cable in conduit something local to your area? It's certainly not in the NEC, since the NEC even tells you the proper way to compute conduit fill for cable inside complete conduit systems. The NEC has many other references to cable in conduit too. And where did that 60" number come from? Is that a local code too?
Although I certainly agree that NM cable in conduit is not usually a great idea, it is not prohibited in most areas.
Although I certainly agree that NM cable in conduit is not usually a great idea, it is not prohibited in most areas.
#10
11-30-03, 04:09 PM
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You absolutely can not use 14/2 NM for this install even thought it is only a 15 amp circuit. The equipment grounding conductor must be no smaller than a #12AWG.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
John
Up until the '02 it was perfectly compliant to use NM in complete conduit systems. Through an oversight between code making panels (which I believe is supposed to be corrected in the '05) many cables are now not allowed. I think it has to do with the xx.22 section of the individual cable articles. I don't have an '02 handy.
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John
Up until the '02 it was perfectly compliant to use NM in complete conduit systems. Through an oversight between code making panels (which I believe is supposed to be corrected in the '05) many cables are now not allowed. I think it has to do with the xx.22 section of the individual cable articles. I don't have an '02 handy.
#11
11-30-03, 04:17 PM
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Bolted, in 680, VII, nowhere does it say anything about a #12 ground. I does specifically say that this section of the article SHALL NOT be required to comply with other parts of this article.
#12 is not required, but like I said, I still would run it.
#12 is not required, but like I said, I still would run it.
#12
11-30-03, 04:24 PM
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#13
11-30-03, 05:09 PM
I also do not have my book handy as I am out for the weekend, however, you will not in article 334, 2002 NEC that permitted uses of NM cable does not say you *can* use it in a raceway, whereas other cabling systems, such as type AC are specifically permitted in a raceway.
The only way to read this, as I see it, is that since one cable article specifically permits it, and another does not list it at all....that by exclusion it is *not* allowed. Will dig up my book and clarify later. I agree that this is an interesting subject on which there is much debate.
-Noxx
The only way to read this, as I see it, is that since one cable article specifically permits it, and another does not list it at all....that by exclusion it is *not* allowed. Will dig up my book and clarify later. I agree that this is an interesting subject on which there is much debate.
-Noxx
#14
11-30-03, 05:15 PM
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noxx, and anyone else interested, check this link for a good debate on the subject. Lots of real good points of view.
Can cable be installed in a raceway? Debate
Can cable be installed in a raceway? Debate
#15
11-30-03, 05:33 PM
Also here...Mike Holt forum is a brief but informative debate on the issue.
Knotty mess tho, hope 2005 clears this up.
-Noxx
Knotty mess tho, hope 2005 clears this up.
-Noxx
