Hey all I'm new here and I need some help wiring my garage. I was going to start with installing some grounded outlets... only to discover that the wire coming from the circuit breaker in the house has no ground wire. So I figure I have to wait until spring, dig it up and run a new wire. But my friend said I could just stick a metal pole in the ground and use that to ground. He says it will be fine, but you know how those people are... well maybe you don't. Anyways would that work? Would it be safe? I already have an air compressor and a benchgrinder and I plan on getting welding equipment, drill press maybe, all sorts of other power tools. So I may have to run a whole new wire anyways to run all this stuff. Thanks for your time and help me out please

 

I'm not sure how big this wire is, but if its a single cable that's feeding outlets it will likely be too small to meet the needs of a welder. Does this circuit also feed your garage lighting?

A sub-panel in your garage would be a good choice. A 60 amp subpanel is usually sufficient to supply lighting, plugs, and a medium-size 240V welder. You'd have to get a #6 or #4 cable rated for direct burial, and a 60 amp breaker for your main panel in the house. A local electrician or the Home Depot clerks should be able to help you further.

 

Yea this is a 50 year old house, they said they rewired it 10 years ago, but they sure did it ghetto. The whole garage is on one circuit. The steps to the basement, and the utilities minus the dryer are also on the same circuit. And there is only one wire running to the garage, I'm not sure what gauge it is, but probably not big enough.

 

Hard as it is for those of us on this forum to believe, the majority of people do very little DIY work. So the garage is just a place to park cars and store the snow shovel, and one circuit for the garage is plenty. Builders typically build houses for the masses, and they don't like to spend extra money on things that only a minority of people are going to need. Those of us who want a shop in our garage have to do it ourselves.

Most people, including your friend, have very little understanding of how grounding works. There are two separate grounding systems, one for lightning protection and one for personnel protection. The metal pole in the ground, properly done, provides the former but not the latter. However, personnel protection grounding can still be done with just the three-wire feeder. After all, your utility company only runs three wires to your house.

I just covered the highlights. There are a million more details we can explore if you want. Ask questions or review old posts.

 

Thanks for the info, I don't have any other particular questions, but could you point me to good posts relating to this topic? I couldn't find much using the search function, mostly because I couldn't figure out how to make it search only one sub-forum.

 

ANY Ground is better than NO Ground, so a Grounding Electrode connected to the "metallic" system--metal cables and boxes-is an improvement.

You can provide GFI protection for ALL receptacle-outlets by installing a few GFI receptacles at "stategic" locations-this arrangement provides maximum protection from shock-hazard.

GFI protection for garage-receptacles is a Code-requirement, and if you install a "Feeder" to the garage in the future, you'll need the Grounding Electrode.

It's possible the Neutral Conductor is serving as the Equiptment Grounding Conductor. Check to determine if the Neutral Conductor ( White wire) of the Feeder cable from the house is "bonded" to the metal surface of the enclosure where the Neutral conductor terminates.

Good Luck & Enjoy the Experience!!!!!

 

Good page for detached garages.

 

In a way, that's true. However, it is somewhat like saying that any tires on a car are better than no tires. But at least with no tires, you know the car won't run and you're not lulled into a false sense of security that everything is okay.

 

JN----Let's compare jaxle's use of an un-Grounded electrical system to someone who is driving a car with defective tires. If that person persists in driving the car, the best advise you can give him in the circumstance is "Don't drive over 20 MPH."

If we don't advise jaxle to dis-continue using the electrical system in his garage, what do we advise him to do?

jaxle should arrange GFI protection for all his receptacle outlets pronto, and "Bond" the "metallic system" to a Grounding Electrode. This should be accomplished even if the Neutral is already connected as an Eqiptment Grounding Conductor.

jaxle---- Please know that a shock-hazard will exist if a "live-wire" makes "contact" with ANY metal-surface ANYWHERE. To prevent this, the "potential" between a "live-wire" and any metallic-surface
should be the same as the potential between the "live-wire"and the Neutral wire, the 2 conductors of a "basic" 120-volt circuit. This requires, at some point, a connection between the Neutral Conductor and the "metallic-system", such a connection referred to as a "Bond". Sound Bonding and Grounding conections will result in a "Fault-Current" that will "trip" the circuit-breaker and open the circuit should a "live-wire" be Grounded.

It's possible that the Neutral Conductor from the Service is serving as the Equiptment Grounding Conductor for the garage and is "Bonded" the the "metallic-system". I strongly urge you to investigate this possibility.

 

thanks for the help guys, im going to run a new wire this spring so dont worry about me

 

Thanks jaxle. Always good to see someone who wants to do things right.

 

A grounding Rod is not allowed by Code, Except at the Service Entrance!!after that the ground must come from the house system !!! The only time The ground is connected to the Neutral is at the Service Entrance, after the Service entrance the Neutral and the Ground become separate entities !!! Only one ground allowed per system!! Now this ground can be a ground rod, city metallic water pipe system but again ONLY one ground per system!!! When you run a cable to the garage you will need a 3 wire UF cable with a separate grounding conductor within!!!

 

Jerry, thanks for your comments. As you say, grounding rods are not allowed when adding a subpanel in the same structure as a panel already connected to the earth with a grounding electrode conductor. However, we inferred (never actually confirmed) that jaxle's garage was detached. If that inference is correct, then grounding rods would be required for the garage (whether or not he runs an equipment grounding conductor from the house). Whether or not an EGC is absolutely required for a detached structure depends on the "metallic path" rule, but we always strongly recommend it anyway.

So jaxle, is your garage attached or detached? Did we infer correctly?

Obviously there are quite a few details we didn't discuss in this thread.

 

its detached, so in addition to running wire with a ground from the houses' circuit breaker i also have to have a grounding rod?

 

At least one. Maybe two.

Be careful. There are a hundred ways to go wrong with this project.

 

Mr Nelson, please quote codes section and paragraph, I can't find that!!! I realize I am a Newbie but not in Electrical Construction !!!

BTW I only have listed my most important qualifications, I am a Member of IAEI, Was a member of Article 250 Code commitee from 1960 to 1968

May I suggest you read Article 250-24 exception 2

Thank you for your indulgence !!! Jerry

 

I cannot find your reference in the 2002 NEC. To which NEC version are you referring?

 

I am using an OLD code book "2000" will go buy a new one tomorrow, retired dont have much use for it now, but if I am here I will have to give current Article Numbers!!!

CYA then !!!!

But Quote "A grounded circuit conductor connection to the grounding electrode shall not be required at a separate building if an equipment grounding conductor is run with the circuit conductors.

Article 250-24 ex 2

 

Jerry, I'm very confused. There is no 2000 NEC. Are you quoting from the NEC, or some other code book?

 

I have often urged people who install electrical equiptments in an "out-doors" location to "re-inforce" the Equiptment Grounding by driving Ground-rods adjacent to the equiptments.

I cite Art 250.24, Supplementry Grounding Electrodes, which reads-------"Supplementry Grounding Electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to ( Equiptment Grounding Conductors)."

I reason that connecting the metal of all out-doors electrical-equiptments to Ground "potential" via a "Supplemetary Grounding Electrode" adjacent to the equiptments is "insurance" against the shock-hazard that would exist should a "break" or "open" occur in the Equiptment Grounded Conductor that is required to be installed along with the Branch-Circuit/ Feeder Conductors.

For example, the metal of a switch/circuit-breaker enclosure which is at "Ground-potential" because, in addition to the Equiptment Grounding Conductor, there is a Grounding Electrode connection at the equiptment-location, is safer than one without the "Supplementary" Grounding-connection.

It must be understood that EXCLUDED from such GROUNDING conductor-connections are GROUNDED conductor connections.

 

I screwed up, I was using a 2000 NYC Electric Code book, but I just bought a 2002 NEC, But the damn thing is so big it doesnt fit in my pocket like the old one did !!!

More concise National Answers from now on!!!! Jerry

See I admit when I am wrong!!! Or forgot (see sig)BTW Pat we must know each other or ar least have mutual friends ie Tom Murray, Dick Tyrrell ETC LOL