code for combined breaker amps in 200amp panel

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  #1  
Old 02-11-04, 08:59 PM
larryhe
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code for combined breaker amps in 200amp panel

I have a 200 amp service and would like to know if there is a limit on the number of combined breaker amps. My panel is full and a few of the 15s are twin. I want to make space by replacing singles with twins.
Thanks
Larry
 
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  #2  
Old 02-11-04, 09:26 PM
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The exercise of adding the handle amp rating of each installed circuit breaker is of no concequence. No relavance to any code.
You may replace breakers with "twins", if your panel permits it. The list of allowed breaker models is listed on the inside of the panel door.
Generally if twins are permitted, the circuit breaker numbering embosed on the trim, will say 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B etc. but not always.
You may need to install a sub panel to get more breaker positions.
 
  #3  
Old 02-13-04, 07:53 PM
imjerry
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Simple Enough

Capacity of 5 amps per CB installed

100 AMP Service 20 Breakers Max

150 AMP 30 Breakers Max

200 AMP 40 Breakers Max

42 Breakers Max undert any circumstances (2 extra for Main )
 
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Old 02-14-04, 10:06 AM
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What is the total-number of C-B "Poles" in operation?

Three 2-Pole C'B's = 6 Poles. 10 "standard" Single Pole C-B's = 10 Poles. Four tandem/duplex C-B's = 8 Poles.

You may have a 200-amp Service panel manufactured with the minimum number of C-B positions for a panel rated at 200-amps, an installation that inevitably becomes problematic as you expand the electrical system with additional connected-loads.

The existing connected loads are an indefinite "per-centage" of the maximum power-capacity of your service. This is determined by a specific type of "Calculation" which is based on certain "factors"---- area of the structure, specific loads such as AC-units, etc.


Good Luck & Enjoy the Experience!!!!
 
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Old 02-14-04, 10:23 AM
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Capacity of 5 amps per CB installed

100 AMP Service 20 Breakers Max

150 AMP 30 Breakers Max

200 AMP 40 Breakers Max

42 Breakers Max undert any circumstances (2 extra for Main )
Jerry, this is your rule of thumb and not the code.
 
  #6  
Old 02-14-04, 03:27 PM
imjerry
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Not a Rule of Thumb

This is the code section :
Number of Devices in Panelboards;
A maximum of 42 overcurrent devices (excluding the main device) are permitted to be installed in a lighting / and appliance branch circuit panelboard per NEC Section 384-15. In addition, a physical means to prevent the installation of more devices than that for which the panelboard has been designed, rated or approved must be provided. Lastly, a multiple pole circuit breaker or fused switch is considered to be a multiple overcunent device equal to the number of poles. Thus, a two pole circuit breaker is considered as two overcurrent devices.

At that point the information was passed on to the NEMA supervisor of code provisions who in turn sent it to the Manufacturers as a Manufacturing code with UL Approval !!!The 100AMP panel can only hold 20 BRKRS without illegal modification same with 150 and 200 whic can legally hold 42 Breakers 2 being the main!!!

The violation of the code is when an illegal modification of the panel occurs!!

Without circumventing the manufacturers intent you cannot get extra breakers in!!

An example is a 200 AMP 30 CKT panel, there is space for 20 full breakers and 20 1/2 space breakers 20 + 20 = 40

Plus of course the 2 extras for the main!!!

Why did I make that statement about the code, as you know each Jurisdiction has the power to enforce the code as they see fit!! NYC code is more stringent than the National Code and they Included the 5 amp per breaker rule in thiers!! But it is inferred in the National Code!!!
 
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Old 02-16-04, 06:21 AM
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Jerry:

I was referring to the 5A per breaker rule as the rule of thumb, this seems to be a NYC-specific rule. In following this forum for several years I cannot recall ever seeing it before.

FWIW, I have a 42 pole 200A main panel with a 100A 20 pole subpanel. This is perfectly code compliant here, it has been inspected and approved. By your 5A per breaker rule this very common configuration would not be allowed - your rule would require 300A service.

P.S. - IMHO your posts would be a lot easier to read if you cut down on the exclamation points.
 
  #8  
Old 02-16-04, 11:32 AM
imjerry
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This is

A per panel requirement and not a per installation requirement, Therefore what you speak of is perfectly legal!!!

Most of us seem to lose track of the fact that sizing is based on square feet of habitable space !!

3 watts per sq ft for lighting
2 20 Amp small appliancxe circuits
Any special requirement Circuits Range,dryer, A/C, Heat etc

So for a 200 Ampere service as long as the load doesn't exceed 200X240=watts less necessary derating, no problems !!!
 
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Old 02-16-04, 12:00 PM
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The code varies from place to place as with everything.

In Ontario is it some kind of load analysis. I am not exactly sure how it works as my dad did it for me but he took into account all the appliances, ie electric stove, 2 freezers, Airconditoning, electric heat, and sq foot for lighting and plugs etc

This I think makes the most sense, because if you go overboard as I have seen a few people do, you could have a plug every 3 feet and lights all over, making a ton of circuits but no real load on any of them.

But of course when the panel is full and totaly twined there is nothing you can do. Except upgrade, I had to 2 weeks ago.
 
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Old 02-16-04, 12:22 PM
polyhedral
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Re: This is

Originally posted by imjerry

Most of us seem to lose track of the fact that sizing is based on square feet of habitable space !!
How true!
The conventional solution seems to be to just throw in another tandem breaker when you run out of space.
If you're out of room in a 40 space panel, chances are you'd get a lot of benefit from a good load calculation. Seasonal loads and under-utilized circuits can often be combined.
 
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Old 02-16-04, 12:50 PM
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I think everybody here (with the possible exception of the original poster) knows how this works. There is no sense debating this among ourselves--we already understand and agree. Let's concentrate on helping Larry.

Larry, do you need more help?
 
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Old 02-16-04, 01:18 PM
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Of course, Larry do you need more help.
As a side note, the outdated corrupt NYC Electric Code is no more. They have adopted the 1999 NEC with ammendments and in a few months the 2002 NEC with even less amendments. The ammendments are the method to keep old junk in there.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/pdf/elamend.pdf
The 5A per CB installed is not valid anymore.
I very often recommend that if a 100A panelboards is required, you install a 200A panelboard with a 100A main breaker, ensuring plenty of breaker positions and the ability to easily upgrade when the installer see the error in the installer ways (just being funny ).
 
  #13  
Old 02-16-04, 05:24 PM
imjerry
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Hey Ron

I think you might be mistaken!! That NYC law resolution comes around every three years and what it does is amend the NEC to meet NYC requirements and makes the amended code book NYC law! That way NYC doesnt have to write and publish there own code book!! 2001 adopted the 1999 code, 2000 adopted the 1996 Code, that is why in the beginning I was talking about the 2000 code book, That was the amended 1996 NEC code book for NYC!!

This local law is not a dropping of the NYC Code but the adoption of it amende3d and passed into Admnistrative Law.

BTW I was one of the reviewers for NYC adaptation of the NEC !

Please note that I edited this post to change from 1997 to 1996 to curb the nitpicking!!!!
 

Last edited by imjerry; 02-17-04 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 02-16-04, 08:19 PM
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There was no 1997 NEC either.
 
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Old 02-16-04, 09:57 PM
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Really, 3 watts psf?

That means I'd have 120 60watt lights in my house.. the place would be an oven!

Or (if I did the math right (7200w / 120v = 60a)), 60 AMPS worth of lighting.

Does anyone else think that's excessive?
Or are they considering all outlets that aren't appliance outlets as 'lighting' ?
 
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Old 02-16-04, 10:04 PM
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The 3 watts per square foot requirement includes lighting and general purpose receptacles. For most people, that's not excessive -- it's insufficient. But it is the minimum allowed by code.
 
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Old 02-16-04, 10:56 PM
DaveB.inVa
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Re: Not a Rule of Thumb

Originally posted by imjerry
The 100AMP panel can only hold 20 BRKRS without illegal modification...

So what does NYC do about one of these?

http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldeta...mber=QO132M100
 
  #18  
Old 02-17-04, 09:44 AM
larryhe
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I need more help. I do not understand. I am confused.


Just joking. I liked reading the debate so much I thought I would keep it going. I appreciate all the people responding. I have been on many forums. Sometimes you don't even get a response. This forum has been the best.
Thanks
Larry
 
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Old 02-17-04, 09:51 AM
imjerry
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About that Load Center

Damn I dont know, but I will try to find out, I admit when I am stumped, and I am !!
 
  #20  
Old 02-17-04, 01:03 PM
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Jerry, if it's any help, I've never heard of the 5-amps-per-breaker rule, and I don't think anybody else here has either. Try to find out where you got this from. I'll be interested to hear what you figure out.
 
  #21  
Old 02-17-04, 04:00 PM
DaveB.inVa
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I have heard of that rule before but the way it was explained to me was that it was a general guideline manufacturers used to size the number of breakers their panel would accept. But it was just a guideline, not a rule. So SquareD or anybody else could go and put up to 42 in if they wished.
 
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