Wiring from house box to shed

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  #1  
Old 09-08-04, 12:52 PM
dclarolh
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Wiring from house box to shed

If anyone would take the time. I am pretty new at wiring but I have decent experience so can someone please explain. I am trying to use a fuse switch in my fuse box to connect to my shed. This will go from my fusebox in my house underground to my shed in the backyard. I just want it connected to a receptacle or two so I could plug in 4 accessories. I will also be bringing in a coaxial cable and an CAT5 cable while I am at it. Is it a good idea to bring these in together, and if it is will i need to protect the wires with anything. I need sort of a list of things I will need to get the job done. Sorry to be a pain, i'm just trying to learn.
 
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  #2  
Old 09-08-04, 01:04 PM
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We can help, but we can't do it all. Go to your home center or library and get three or four books on home wiring. Read them.

Keep coax and electrical cables at least six inches apart. Keep cat5 and electrical cables at least 12" apart. UF-B electrical cable can be direct buried at least 12" deep it protected by conduit where exposed and GFCI protected before going underground. How far it is to the shed is an important design consideration. Accurately predicting how much power you will need will help avoid unnecessary cost and future disappointment, so think well. Receptacles don't use power, but what you plug in does, so it is critical to know what you're going to plug in. Do you really have fuses, or do you have breakers? Is there any power in the shed now?

Just some things to think about. The more you read, and the more you tell us, the more we can help.
 
  #3  
Old 09-08-04, 01:36 PM
dclarolh
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I have breakers. There is no power in the shed now. I was going to use UF 12/2 wiring. I am planning on powering a midsize tv, about 350 watt stereo, a bunch of lights, maybe a computer, and a mini-fridge. I am unsure what kind of coax I will need for my directv. I have an idea (maybe rg-6 or rg-11 direct burial). I am researching as much as I can. I would just like help from experts. I don't expect you guys to do everything for me. But any help would be appreciated.
 
  #4  
Old 09-08-04, 01:37 PM
dclarolh
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Where I want the receptacle to be in the shed is about 100 feet from my breaker box.
 
  #5  
Old 09-08-04, 02:00 PM
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12-gauge is good for 20-amps, but when used over 100 feet, you might only want to count on 15 amps from it in order to get acceptable voltage drop. You might consider upgrading to 10/2 (or maybe even 10/3 for a multiwire circuit--second semester). 15 amps will give you about 1800 watts. Add up the amp or watt requirements of your TV, your mini-fridge, the lights, and the other stuff. You may find that you are uncomfortably close to the limit.

Sounds like you're planning a retreat for when you're in the doghouse. Don't forget room for a mattress on the floor.

Find some books and start reading, and keep asking questions as they arise. But don't start yet--you still don't know enough.
 
  #6  
Old 09-08-04, 03:51 PM
dclarolh
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Also the wiring in my house is kinda old, my house is about 25-30 years old maybe more. So this might limit me to certain things.
 
  #7  
Old 09-08-04, 04:08 PM
dclarolh
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if i was goin to originally use 12/2 shouldn't i just use 10/2 instead of 10/3. 10/3 is very expensive too. I mean what is the difference anyway, just an extra hot wire?
 
  #8  
Old 09-08-04, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dclarolh
I am planning on powering a midsize tv, about 350 watt stereo, a bunch of lights, maybe a computer, and a mini-fridge. I am unsure what kind of coax I will need for my directv.
Shed??? HA! Who do ya' think yer foolin'?
 
  #9  
Old 09-08-04, 04:10 PM
dclarolh
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also if i use 12/2 or 10/x I should surround with some sort of tubing such as pvc, or is this not needed?
 
  #10  
Old 09-08-04, 04:11 PM
dclarolh
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Shed??? HA! Who do ya' think yer foolin'?
well im turning it into a game room kinda thing, u know drinking football girls. I want it to be perfect.
 
  #11  
Old 09-08-04, 04:17 PM
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10/3 will allow a multiwire circuit. It not only provides twice the power, but limits the voltage drop to up to one fourth what it would be if you only had 10/2. So it's a good payback for the extra wire. As you do your research, pay attention when you read something about a multiwire (aka shared neutral) circuit.
 
  #12  
Old 09-08-04, 04:56 PM
dclarolh
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I've studied a lot a got a good idea of what i have to do. I'll still do some more research before i start, but I need to know what kind of coax cable would be good for my sattelite TV which is about 100 ft from the satellite.
 

Last edited by dclarolh; 09-08-04 at 06:17 PM. Reason: found answer
  #13  
Old 09-08-04, 07:02 PM
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RG6. Most of it can be buried, but check the specs.
 
  #14  
Old 09-09-04, 06:18 AM
dclarolh
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So should I use pvc piping to surroung the wires or will they alone be enough? or is there something else better to use. Also what is the difference between RG-6 direct burial and RG-6 quad shielded and is Quad shielded good for underground.
 
  #15  
Old 09-09-04, 06:27 AM
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PVC generally allows shallower burial depths. Depending on how hard the digging is, and the chances of future digging in the area, it may be easier to dig it deeper and skip the conduit. Code gives about 30 different burial depth requirements depending on the exact details, the deepest of which is 24". We can't tell you how deep you'll have to go until more of the details are worked out.
 
  #16  
Old 09-09-04, 06:55 AM
dclarolh
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Well here is where I am at so far, I am going to replace one of my old breakers (one that does nothing)with a GFCI breaker that I happen to have lying around. Then my 10/2 maybe 10/3 wire is going to go out from the breaker box in my closet, under my house, then 18" underground to my shed. Once in there I am goin to install a switch(to control all electricity in the shed) and then a GFCI receptacle(unsure if this is needed if I am already using the breaker). Then maybe 2 or 3 other receptacles around the room.
There will also be a coaxial RG-6 cable following this line, but always 6" away. Maybe I will add the CAT5 cable(which will be 12" away like you said), unsure if I will actually put a computer in there or not. Now is there anything I missed or is there anything wrong with this?
 
  #17  
Old 09-09-04, 07:14 AM
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Whether or not you use 10/2 or 10/3 will dictate which breaker you must use, and what kind of disconnect you need in the shed. Whether or not you want 10/2 or 10/3 is determined by how much power you need.

It all starts with a good design. And a good design depends on your power requirements. Don't start until you have a good handle on your power requirements.
 
  #18  
Old 09-09-04, 08:15 AM
dclarolh
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Well I have decided to use 10/3, along with my plans i posted earlier does it seem correct? Also I need an electrical disconnect? (What is it a requirment) Can't I just use the breaker as the disconnect.
 
  #19  
Old 09-09-04, 08:22 AM
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Using 10/3 means that you need to bury your cable deep enough to not need a GFCI at the main panel (you still need it in the shed), or you need to use a (somewhat expensive) 240 volt GFCI circuit breaker.
 
  #20  
Old 09-09-04, 08:27 AM
dclarolh
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Yea, thats what I was planning either the 240volt GFCI circuit breaker or the GFCI in the shed. Also I need an electrical disconnect? (What is it a requirment) Can't I just use the breaker as the disconnect.

Another thing I was curious about, what is the difference between a 1 gang and 2 gang box (unsure what a gang is)?
 
  #21  
Old 09-09-04, 08:45 AM
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The disconnect must be in the shed. A couple of regular switches will do, one for each leg of the multiwire circuit after you split it in the first box.

Since you're only burying the cable for 18 inches, the burial depth is not a consideration. Just go down 24 inches.

Is the breaker you "happen to have laying around" a 120/240 double-pole 20-amp GFCI breaker?

A one-gang box is about 2.25 inches wide. A two-gang box is about 4.5 inches wide.
 
  #22  
Old 09-09-04, 09:02 AM
dclarolh
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Ok, I have to say you've been a great help so far. and yes my GFCI breaker meets all those specifications. the only thing i have to do is understand how to wire boxes. Should be easy. Then I have to ask if all of this will meet inspector standards and if you know what the requirements would be to get a permit. I live in NJ (if you know the area's codes).

Another question about gang boxes. What would be the point of using one gang or 2 gang is it just the sizes or is it how many times it is going to branch off from the main line?

I wish i could post pictures on here, I would show you a sketch.
 

Last edited by dclarolh; 09-09-04 at 10:55 AM.
  #23  
Old 09-09-04, 11:21 AM
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While RG6 would probably work OK at 100', I would go with RG11 just to be on the safe side. The wider cable results in less signal loss, and a better picture. In addition, RG11 has a copper center conductor, which means less voltage loss as compared to (most flavors of) RG6.
 
  #24  
Old 09-09-04, 12:18 PM
dclarolh
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anyone know where I can get the electrical codes for my area.
 
  #25  
Old 09-09-04, 12:45 PM
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Netscape browser is not working again.

Try your local town hall, where you will get the permit needed.
 
  #26  
Old 09-09-04, 01:14 PM
dclarolh
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Is there an e-mail address where I can send any of you guys an attachment of the sketch of my plan?
 
  #27  
Old 09-09-04, 04:58 PM
dclarolh
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So once the line comes into the shed. The first thing that should be there is the GFCI receptacle right, to protect everything. Shouldn't the switch be first to be the main power disconnect? Then everything thereafter should go through the GFCI receptacle right?
 
  #28  
Old 09-09-04, 05:42 PM
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When you first enter the shed, run the 10/3 cable into a double-gang box. Put two switches in that box, one that will switch the red wire and one that will switch the black wire. Turning both switches off will kill the power to your shed.

Then run two 12/2 cables out of the box, one from each switch (with all three white wires in the box connected to each other). In the first box that each 12/2 comes to, install a GFCI receptacle.
 
  #29  
Old 09-10-04, 05:57 AM
dclarolh
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I need to also connect all neutral(White) and ground wires together right
 
  #30  
Old 09-10-04, 06:19 AM
dclarolh
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So basically it will look like this: http://danswiringpage.com/diagrams/240_conv.jpg except the receptacles will switches. A double pole breaker is the same as a muliwire circuit? If it isn't can I just use a double pole breaker for my setup?

Is this is correct I need a 30 Amp, Double Pole Circuit Breaker correct?
 

Last edited by dclarolh; 09-10-04 at 06:55 AM.
  #31  
Old 09-10-04, 07:03 AM
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Slow down. You are getting way ahead of yourself. Please do as John suggested and read several books. What you are planning to do should not be attempted without knowing exactly what you are doing. You could easily kill yourself or someone else if you make a mistake, and not all mistakes will necessarily get caught with an inspection.

A multiwire circuit is a circuit consisting of two (or more) hot wires with a single neutral wires, plus a ground wire. In a residential setting this means two hot wires.

A double pole breaker is a circuit breaker with two poles. When placed into your panel this will supply the necessary hot wires for your multiwire circuit.

You need a double pole 20 amp breaker. You cannot use a 30 amp breaker unless you provide further protection with a smaller breaker before the receptacles and switches.
 
  #32  
Old 09-10-04, 07:07 AM
dclarolh
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I no I have an electrician friend thats gonna do the Main panel part, since im inexperienced. But i'm just trying to learn. I no i shouldn't just go and do it but i've learned a lot in a few days. I'm just goin to run the wire and the shed and have my friend check it before any power is applied.

So why would I need a 20 amp when i'm using a 30 amp power line?
 
  #33  
Old 09-10-04, 07:33 AM
sjr
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You are using a 10/3 cable which has an ampacity of 30 amps. However, the reason you are using the 10/3 cable is to prevent voltage drop and allow a full 20 amp load, not to increase ampacity to 30 amps.

General use branch circuits (not dedicated circuits for dryers, range, etc) are only permitted to have a maximum 20 amp OCP device (circuit breaker).

The two-pole 20 amp breakers are available in Home Depot among other places.

The advice to read as much as you can before you begin is invaluable.
 
  #34  
Old 09-10-04, 07:38 AM
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15 and 20 amp switches and receptacles can only be protected by a maximum 20 amp circuit breaker. Normally for the setup you plan to have you would use 12 gauge wire with a 20 amp double pole breaker.

However, a long wire run from the panel to the point of use tends to lose voltage. This is referred to as voltage drop. Voltage drop is normal, but too much is not a good thing. With an incandescent light, voltage drop simply means a less bright light. However, other lights and most motors won't work if the voltage drops too much, or will work inefficiently, sometimes damaging them. The amount of voltage drop is a factor of the wire gauge and the amount of current being used. To decrease voltage drop you increase the wire size.

In your case, 100 feet is not a long distance, but should be taken into consideration. So instead of 12 gauge wire, you go up in size to 10 gauge, which will cause less voltage drop. However, you still need to use a 20 amp breaker, because you are only installing a 20 amp circuit.
 
  #35  
Old 09-10-04, 12:53 PM
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I need to also connect all neutral(White) and ground wires together right
Depends on how you parse that. Yes, you need to connect all neutrals to each other, and yes, you need to connect all grounding wires to each other. But do not connect the neutrals to the grounding wires.

A few points of terminology are probably necessary. The term "ground" is ambiguous, so you probably shouldn't use it. Those bare wires running around are called "grounding wires" or "grounding conductors". Also you should know that in some things you read, the neutral will be referred to as the "grounded" conductor. The difference between "ed" and "ing" is really important. Next, you should know that not all white wires are neutrals. So even though it is correct to connect all the neutrals (from the same circuit) together, that doesn't necessarily imply that it is correct to connect all white wires together.
 
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