Older Home Needs Rewiring

Hi

Purchasing an older home closing is next week, Done some research would like to purpose my plan to people in the know before I approach the powers at be with my sketch and plan.

Home built approx. 1901 currently has knob and tube wiring 60-amp service on fuses.

Looking to upgrade service to 100-200-amp service, all panel connections will be done by an electrician.

I will be running all 12-gauge wire.

The house as 6 bedrooms, a full bath, 2 half baths, Living room, Dining room, family room, Den, kitchen and a couple of hallways

The basement has a concrete floor but is otherwise unfinished; it will be finished into a workshop, playroom, laundry, Utility and storage room. The House as an oil furnace, which I believe, requires 1

Will also be adding a couple of exterior lights and outlets.
Each bedroom will be using an arc fault breaker
Each exterior circuit will be using a GFCI breaker

Each exterior, bathroom and kitchen outlet will be using a GFCI outlet the exterior outlets will also be covered with an in use outlet cover.

Will be purchasing a new main panel (32-40 spaces) and meter connection.
I will be running all 20-amp breakers. Outlined as follows;

Each Bedroom (6)
Each Bath (3)
Kitchen-
Fridge (1)
Outlets and lights (2)
Living (1)
Dining (1)
Family (1)
Den (1)
Workshop (2)
Laundry (1)
Storage (1)
Play (1)
Furnace (1)
Other basement (2)
Exterior (2)

Leaving extra spaces in the panel for any expansion that might need to be done.

Since this is an older home and I wasn’t looking to rip out all the walls for the electric can I run conduit in the walls to hold the wire? Will that pass an inspection? What would the inspector need to actually see in order to pass?

If it matters for the response the house is located in mass. The home will be used as primary residence and I have sufficient knowledge to run the lights and outlets.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Bill

 

May I suggest that you read a good book or three first. It sounds like you want to do this yourself. You may have trouble finding an electrician to touch your work. You need to really know what you are doing before you start something like this.

Anyway, to address your proposal.

The kitchen lights cannot be on the same same circuit as any counter receptacles. You need two circuits serving counter receptacles in the kitchen, and they can't serve anything else except dining room receptacles.

 

I also don't see any 220 circuits. You might want to run at least one to the laundry room for an electric dryer. If you have a gas dryer, you might want to run an extra 120 circuit to the laundry room for it as well so it isn't sharing with the washer. The kitchen is going to need a lot more than you have listed. Dishwasher/disposal, microwave, and fridge. really all should have their own dedicated circuits. Any plan for A/C in the future?

Doug M.

 

What is the the house's square footage (using the outside dimensions) including basement and 2nd level?

 

hi

thanks for the responses, I do have a gas dryer but good point, I will add the additional.

I was unware the counter outlets needed to be seperate also forgot the microwave so I guess the kitchen would need to be run as follows;
Fridge (1)
Microwave (1)
Counter outlets (1)
Lights/wall Outlets (1)

No immediate plans for A/C or a dishwasher but would it be better to run a dedicated circuit just in case?

Not Planning for any 220v...Is that a mistake? What’s the difference in running a 220v line?

If I cannot get an electrician do make the connections I believe the panel connects are straight forward, but what is involved with switching the actual service line?

Any comments on the inspection process? Using the conduit to avoid opening all the walls?

Thanks for the input
Bill

 

The sq. Footage of the whole house is approx. 4800 sq feet. The exterior is approx. 40*40

 

Plan for the 220 now. It's easier to do it all at once so it's there when you need it. We intended to get a gas dryer when we moved into this house, but I made the builder put in the 220 plug as well. When we moved we ran out of funding for the dryer and ended up moving our old electric dryer. Thank God we had a plug.

I might also put a 220 stove plug in the kitchen behind the stove in case you ever want to convert that to electric. I had the builder do that here as well. Not sure we'll ever use it, but it's there. Might come in handy if I ever decide I want to take up welding too. Just have to set up my welder next to the stove and... never mind. The look on my wife's face just flashed into my head.

Doug M.

 

The kitchen countertop MUST be served by a minimum of two circuits. If your microwave sits in the countertop you could get away with what you have listed above for the kitchen, but I think you will trip the breaker if you get a coffee machine, electric frying pan and toaster oven on at the same time. I have been there, done that. Add another kitchen countertop circuit.

 

Wow, Seems like alittle over kill but if thats whats required not a problem. Countertop is only about 6-7 feet long

Thanks, I wouldnt have thought I needed a second one there.

 

Here's how you calculate the number of branch circuits for lighting (this includes general purpose receptacles)

4800 sq. ft. X 3VA per sq. ft. = 14,400 VAs divided by 120 Volts = 120 Amps divided by 20 amp branch circuit = 6 - 20 amp branch circuits for lighting.

You need to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the laundry room receptacles.

At least 2 dedicated circuits for the kitchen countertops and dinning room receptacles.

Yes, run a circuit to the oil furnance.

Run dedicated circuits to each bathroom.

>

I might be missing something, but how do you plan on running conduit in the walls if you're not going to rip them out?

 

Bill,

With a total rewire such as this, you really might consider tearing into the walls. I think you'd find it to be less work to tear off all the wallboard (or plaster), run wiring in an environment where you can get at it, and sheetrock again afterwards. This would also allow you to deal with any plumbing surprises you might find and insulate to modern standards.

Putting conduit into walls doesn't necessarily make it easier to run wiring. Assume that you drilled a hole in the top or bottom plate of a wall so you could run conduit to an existing switch box. How would you install a conduit fitting on the box? If you tear out the old box and put in a new box (not generally designed for conduit), how would you tighten down the set screws on the conduit?

I'd also guess that with a total rewire like this that you'll need to add receptacles in places where you may not have them now, for example long hallways. I'd suggest separating lighting from receptacle circuits. Consider adding a dedicated circuit for an A/V center. If you're in one of those neighborhoods where holiday lights will be an expectation (especially candles in windows), plan on receptacles for things like that.

With a big ole 3-story like you've got - if you can go through and update the wiring to modern code and take into consideration the conveniences you want, you'll probably be happier in the long run.

One thing I wouldn't go nuts on is running wiring for home networks. I did in our addition and now am using a wireless modem for the computer. Running RG6 Quad Shield to all the rooms for cable TV is another matter.

 

Originally was thinking I might be able to get away with only a few smaller holes but have come to the conclusion that I will have to remove a full section of wall to run the line from the basement. Also part of the surrounding walls to allow the addition of outlets and part of the ceiling for lights.

I guess that will also allow for anything that would need to be inspected as well. Will just have to leave it open until I get everything finished and ready for the inspector.

So that sovles the conduit issue, I was in the neiborhood around christmas didnt see anything that was like that there so I think I am in the clear on that one.


Good idea with the coax, Was thinking of running the cable line..I assume the RG6 Quad Shield is the better cable.

Thanks

 

Bill, do yourself a huge favor and spend $6 on the green paperback Wiring Simplified available in the electrical aisle at Home Depot. Read every word in it! The guys here have done a great job of mentioning applicable codes, but there is a lot more to it than what we have discussed here. Doing a code-compliant job is no harder than doing a job that violates a bunch of codes, but you can't follow the codes unless you know them.

If the above book sparks your interest, get the much more expensive book Wiring a House.

 

thanks john

I will pick up that book you suggested, I was at lowes the other day and looked for something like that but couldnt find anything, was starting to think I might have to by a copy of the NEC.

Which I found the couple of excerts I founf on the internet to be alittle confusing, A trip to the Ol' Barnes and Noble is planned for today i'll look there but home depot is right next door so I can run in and pick it up.

I really only want to do this job once, trying to plan for anything I can put it that wont require me to open the walls back up again.

 

If you remove the wall-finish on the exterior walls, you can insulate them to achieve a substanial fuel-cost saving over the years, and obviously the re-wiring is simplified. Consider seperate-circuits for window A-C units.

If you fasten 1" x 4" fur-strips perpendicular to the ceiling-joists you will have these advantages;

Fininishing the ceiling with 5/8" S-R give a fire-resistant ceiling far superior to the existing ceiling.

You can easily route both B-C cables and communication-cables between both the fur-strips and the joists.

The space beween the old/new ceilings is "dead" air-space which forms an effective barrier to heat-loss.

You can easily install recessed-fixtures for very effective illumination of the rooms.

*****************

As for the interior walls, cut a groove 1" in width in the exsiting wall-finish along the entire perimeter of the room approx 2' above the floor.This will expose the studs and form a "channel" for routing the B-C cables box-to-box.
Cut a 4"-sq. opening in the wall-finish next to the studs approx 16" above the floor at outlet-locations. Fasten 4"-sq. metallic outlet-boxes ( "1900" boxes) to the side of the stud, set so that the front-edge of a 3/4" "rough-cover" will be flush with the existing wall finish after it is set on the box.

You'r now ready to route the B-C cables box-to-box with a minimum of 8" of conductor-lenth for device-connections.Make the Grounding-connections , splice the B-C conductors together ,and wire-nut them.You will connect the devices to the splices with wire-leads because you don't want the "continuity" of the B-C conductors to rely upon device-connections.I suggest stranded wire - not stiff, very flexible- using crimp-lugs for the device-teminals.

Now you'r ready for a "rough-coat" of plaster-of-Paris----------

Good Luck & Enjoy the Experience

 

Few comments:

1. You don't need (6) circuits for (6) bedrooms. You should be able to put (2) or (3) bedrooms on one circuit. That will save you on the expense of arc-fault breakers.

2. Is your house 4800 sq. ft.? You said it measures "40*40 exterior". Is it 1600 sq. ft.? That's 1/3 the square footage which means 1/3 the number of required general purpose circuits.

3. If you carefully remove the baseboards and cut out the sheetrock behind them, you will have an exposed wall area where you can drill through studs and "fish" wires up to cut-in receptacle and switch boxes. Install new sheetock and mud and then replace baseboards (no need to finish the sheetrock). Since yours is an older home, you may have 6-10" tall baseboards which would make the project go very smoothly. If not, you can install new taller baseboards to cover your wire fishing channel.

4. You cannot put any lights on your two kitchen small appliance circuits.

5. I like to run all my receptacle circuits in 12 guage wire, and my lights in 14 guage wire. Lighting is a "static" load - in other words, you know what your load will be - it's simply the wattage of the bulbs / 120 volts. 14 guage is easier to work with. Most of the "box fill" restrictions work out better with 14 guage which is helpful when you start adding switch legs and 3-way switches. You need to think about where you want to put switches - I'm sure you're old house doesn't have an adequate number of switches.

6. Can romex wire (preferrable) be used in your area or do you have to use MC cable (metallic clad flexible cable)? That will make a difference in cost, ease, type of boxes, etc.

Good luck with your project. It might be hard to find an electrician who will put his license on the line when you're doing most of the work. I would suggest a talk with the local inspections department to see how you could perform your own work. Maybe they'll let you take out a permit for all the work but the "service", and the electrician can have the service permitted. Try and find an electrician to install the service who will also be willing to come by once a week for consultation and "inspection" of your work. You can ask his advice and he can make sure you're doing things by code so when the inspector comes by he won't turn you down without making it through the first room. Also, before you start, you can have him help you lay out locations for receptacles and switches, as well as number of outlets on a circuit, etc..

 

-PATTBAA

Not going to do a complete gut of the house just just the channels needed to run the wire a run around each room and up along 1 wall on each floor.

A channel from the ceiling center to the open section of wall im unsure of what b-c cable is I need to call the inspection dept. about the wire but Im planning on running 12/2 I beileve that is the correct cable.

-mcjunk

Running a circuit for each bedroom because of any possible future usage and the difference between a 15 and a 20 is little cost but good increase in what it can support. Most of the bedrooms will likely contain a couple of lights, tv, vcr/dvd, computer, Printer, radio, clock possible some task lighting and the ability to use say the vacum or small power tools as we revamp this home.

Using a rough estimate of watt usage @ 125% from full possible load came up with close to a 15 breaker now it would be the case all the time but would rather be covered an extra 100-150 dollars its worth doing.

Yes, the exterior measures approx. 40*40 but thats per floor so *3 4800 Sq. Ft. but with the current plan of branch circuits I have that issue more then covered.

Going to check on the baseboards when I go back to the house and see how it would be to remove them also how decrotive they are as a replacement possiblity.

Im not planning on any lights on the counter circuits, Actually looking like 2 GFCI outlets per Circuit. I might use a couple double gang boxes. any restrictions on these?

I have to call about the wire but I am hoping to use the standard wire, Its what I know how to use.

The house doesnt have enough of anything, currently has 1 outlet per room there might be 5 or 6 switches throught the whole house.

Thanks for the input.

 

Few more comments:

1. You will need to install a 200 amp service if you want a 42 circuit main panel. You mentioned installing a new 100-200 amp service. A 100 amp main panel will only provide 24 circuits. Plus, if you're changing the service anyway, it's not much more to put in a 200 as opposed to a 100 or 150. Most 4800 sq. ft. houses would utilize a 400 amp service, but that's due to heating and A/C loads, electric ranges, dryers, water heaters, etc.. You don't seem to have any of those "issues".

2. Does the oil furnace heat the entire 4800 sq. ft.? That's a lot of space for one unit, especially when it's divided on 3 floors. There's not a unit in the attic that heats the upstairs is there?

3. I'm assuming you have natural gas available and in place for your range, dryer, & water heater(s).

4. I'm also assuming your comfortable with the idea of not having any A/C in the house. If the house is ducted (central), you might want to consider looking into the possibility of adding a condensing unit and coil to the system. If not, dedicated circuits under outside windows for window units (especially upstairs) might be something to think about while your doing the wiring, even if you have no current plans for A/C. You could run a 12/2 to a box with a blank cover, and just stub the wire into the attic for possible later 120V or 240V connection. Just make sure you have a way to get home runs (circuits from a panel) to connect to the wires.

5. If you're planning on installing light switches to bring the house to "modern" standards, you will be installing many 3-way and possibly some 4-way switches. As I stated before, you will run into box-fill issues with 12/2 and 12/3 wire that you can avoid with 14/2 and 14/3.

6. Depending on your particular installation, it may make sense to install a 60 amp sub-panel or two (maybe one on the lower and upper floors) to cut down on lengths of home runs. Also, wherever possible, always stub a spare conduit (say, 1" PVC) from panelboards into attics or other areas of access for future use. Also, run a conduit or two from the basement ceiling into the attic if you have a good route for future use as well - might want it for TV cables, for instance.

 

More comments on rewire of old houses...

I'm in the process of a complete rewire of a 100 year old 3000 SF rowhouse in Baltimore. Some issues I've found:

1. John is as usual right on the money, you must read, re-read and completely understand several books on wiring. In addition to "Wiring Simplified" which is a good reference when you're up to speed, and Rex Cauldwell's excellent "Wiring A House" which is compulsory reading, you can ease into the subject with an intro book like the Black & Decker "Complete Guide to Home Wiring".

2. Subpanels are a blessing in a large house. 6/3 cable will supply a 60A subpanel which will supply all or most of one floor and the cable is not too hard to work with or expensive (currently about $150 for 125 feet). I initially thought I'd skip the subpanel...got as far as pulling five 80 foot runs before I reconsidered. So I got to pull them all out and am much happier with the sub panel supplying the upstairs front of the house.

3. Hear hear for 14 gauge lighting wiring. The lighting load is known in advance so overloading is not an issue if the 3 W / square foot rule is followed. I've used a lot of 3 way switches and you get close enough to box fill (this is calculated per NEC, not guessed) with 14/3 let alone using the scarce and expensive 12/3.

4. I thought I'd be able to save my internal walls and work around them. Well once you start cutting into 100 year old lath and horsehair plaster it soon gets to the point where you may as well just pull it down and be done with it. So many advantages, not the least of which is being able to properly insulate the walls and ceilings, and halve your heating and cooling bills. Also you can do a proper job on the wiring, and get to the plumbing, and have everything open for inspection.

5. I do use a wireless router but wired is always faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more secure. So I've run two Cat 5E (Ethernet and phone - or you can run phone wire) and coax (TV) to each and every room. It's not too much work if you've got the walls open and you then have complete flexibility for routing signal cable if it is all run back to a structured wiring panel. You can also get cable that has all three of these wires in one housing. I've already taken advantage of the available Ethernet to run my alarm sensors and security IP cameras (as I said, this is Baltimore!).

6. As mcjunk says I ran a spare 12/2 to under the window of each bedroom and can add A/C outlets 120 or 240V at some future date. The insulation I was able to install by pulling down the plaster made central A/C unnecessary. Put the wire in now while you can...it's cheap and relatively easy, especially if you have a subpanel nearby.

Note these are my own experiences and I am not a pro. Thank you to the pros for generously sharing their knowledge on this forum.

Andy