Electrical Problem!!!!


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Old 12-30-04, 03:21 PM
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Unhappy Electrical Problem!!!!

Hello guys,today i took a small project. Have a older home ranch style about 1,200 square feet 3 bedrooms 1 bath 1 living room hall way kitchen mud room / Laundry room. 100 AMP service with about 12 slots. So i took a ride to
home depote and pick up some outlets to replace all the ones in my house as they where all 2 hole with now ground conextion, so i figure i run a extra outlet to one the rooms that i needed for a tv / dvd player, so i find a junction box in the attic that was going to use for this extra outlet i was going to install , so i proced to shut the breaker off to get an idea on what is running thru this junction to my suprised to find out that this junction box ran most of the darn house here is what on this line this is all on a 15 AMP breaker--- 3 outlets to 1 room, 1 out side light, 1 Laundry room light, 1 hallway light, 1 bathroom light and exuast fan, 1 kitchen stove which is gas but has light in the oven, 1 stove hood exuast fan, 1 attic light, 1 attic fan, 2 bedroom 52" cieling fans w/ lights, 1 outlet in room two, and 1 outlet in room three. Needless to say i did not install the extra outlet i needed. Will half to do some rewiring here, so i am trying to figure out how may outlets i can wire together. All i have to work with is a crawl space and a crawl space attic, would be a good idea to run a new junction box to run cieling fans and lights if so how many can i put on one circuit. Need some input here.
Thanks Ice199
 
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Old 12-30-04, 04:31 PM
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You need to stop looking for junction boxes, and start with a new breaker and a new cable directly from the panel. You cannot legally extend an ungrounded circuit, and you don't want to anyway since they are all loaded to the max. And you can't legally put a 3-hole receptacle on an ungrounded circuit without GFCI protection.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by John Nelson
You need to stop looking for junction boxes, and start with a new breaker and a new cable directly from the panel. You cannot legally extend an ungrounded circuit, and you don't want to anyway since they are all loaded to the max. And you can't legally put a 3-hole receptacle on an ungrounded circuit without GFCI protection.
The two hole receptacle that i replaced had a ground wire but was connected to the receptacle box which in tern was connected to the main panel. So i connected the ground to the new 3-hole receptacle. Was this incorrect? As for the junction box thats what i ment run a new line to a new junction baox a go from there. Again how many receptacles can i run on one line and how many cieling fans or for that matter regular lights?
 
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Old 12-30-04, 04:53 PM
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If you have a grounding wire, then you can use the 3-hole receptacle.

There is no maximum number of outlets on a circuit mandated by the National Electrical Code. Rule of thumb is 8 on a 15-amp circuit and 10 on a 20-amp circuit. But you are allowed to go up or down from there based on your knowledge of what will be connected to each outlet. In this context, the word "outlet" includes receptacles, lighting fixtures, and hard-wired appliances.

So proper design is a good idea. A 15-amp circuit supplies up to 1800 watts and a 20-amp circuit up to 2400 watts. A good rule of thumb is to design for no more than 80% of that. A ceiling fan only uses about 65 watts on high speed, but if it has a light kit, the lights usually use more than the fan. Other things can be factored in by examining how many watts each thing has. Of course, in most cases not everything on the circuit will be on at the same time. You get to decide for yourself how agressive or conservative you want to be. The price for being too aggressive is continually tripping breakers, which is really annoying. Most people advise being conservative, but space limitations in your panel may not allow you to be too conservative.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 05:07 PM
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If I may, Ice199, if you didn't know about all this stuff being on one breaker until now, it obviously hasn't been a problem. Why make it one? As long as the wiring is covered by and appropriately sized breaker, there's no hazard. Just run a new circuit for the new TV/DVD receptacle.

Doug M.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dougm
If I may, Ice199, if you didn't know about all this stuff being on one breaker until now, it obviously hasn't been a problem. Why make it one? As long as the wiring is covered by and appropriately sized breaker, there's no hazard. Just run a new circuit for the new TV/DVD receptacle.

Doug M.
Doug you are right if it's not broken why fix it but it just seems like way to much for a 15 Amp breaker, obviously it has not been a problem have been living here 10 years and has never tripped. Would be a good idea to maybe up the breaker to say 20 Amp? Like John said before not every thing is always running all at the same time. Will run a new line friday would it be a good idea to run into a new junction box any way just in case some thing new pops up?
Will run 12 gauge wire with a 20 Amp breaker.

Thanks for all the help
 
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Old 12-30-04, 06:24 PM
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Would be a good idea to maybe up the breaker to say 20 Amp?
When I'm trying to burn my house down, I prefer gasoline and a match. It is slightly more effective than upping a breaker.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by John Nelson
When I'm trying to burn my house down, I prefer gasoline and a match. It is slightly more effective than upping a breaker.
Come on John Nelson you are making me feel like you'r punching bag man. If i new the answer to my own question i would not be looking for advice here.

Thanks Ice199
 
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Old 12-30-04, 06:42 PM
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John's answer was very clear. No, you cannot up the breaker. Doing so risks overloading the circuit. Overloaded circuits cause heat. Heat causes fires.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 06:47 PM
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Thanks for the reply racraft, either way i will be running a few new line and removing some of the fans, and lights of this breaker as feel there are way to many things hooked to it why take the chance i do have a few open slots in panel.
thanks again Ice199
 
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Old 12-30-04, 07:21 PM
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Sorry Ice, I was not intending to put you down. I was just trying to answer your question with a bit of levity. It obviously missed the mark.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 08:18 PM
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Breaking up the circuit certainly will not hurt, but again, leaving it the way it is isn't a hazard of any kind nor is it taking any chances (unless you up the breaker without changing out all the associated wire). It could be an annoyance if the breaker was tripping all the time, but it isn't. I have a circuit like this in my house built in 1999. It runs part of the family room, part of the breakfast nook, all the kitchen lights and some of the master bedroom. When I discovered it shortly after moving in, I was highly annoyed at the electrician, especially since everything else was done so well, but after over 5 years, it's never been a problem so I'm leaving it just the way it is.

Doug M.
 
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Old 12-30-04, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ice199
Thanks for the reply racraft, either way i will be running a few new line and removing some of the fans, and lights of this breaker as feel there are way to many things hooked to it why take the chance i do have a few open slots in panel.
thanks again Ice199
Just remember: if you split anything off this circuit thats on 14 guage wire, and put it on a new circuit, you will then be limited to a 15AMP breaker on this new circuit...
 
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Old 01-01-05, 08:38 AM
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Thanks to everyone for the replys and the input. No problem John Nelson no hard feelings here.
 
 

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