Add ceiling fixture and wall switch from ceiling outlet


  #1  
Old 03-26-05, 02:17 PM
itsmike29
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Add ceiling fixture and wall switch from ceiling outlet

I have a ceiling outlet with white and black running to it - its an always on regular outlet. Normally I have a hanging lamp plugged in and I use the switch on the lamp to turn it on or off.

Instead of that lamp I want to extend power to track lighting but have the track lighting controlled by a wall switch.

For some reason this seemed easy. I ran all the wiring and have power to the light. I used an old garage fixture just to test. It works with the switch in the off position but when I turn the switch on my breaker pops.

It doesnt matter if I have white or black on the top or bottom of the wall switch, when its down/off it works, but when I turn it on it pops.

What could cause this and how can I fix this?

Thanks
 
  #2  
Old 03-26-05, 04:16 PM
J
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You have wired the switch across the line. I think I know what you did but please tell us how you ran the wires and how you connected them.
For example you ran a new NM cable from the receptacle to the fixture then to the switch or you ran the new cables from the receptacle to the switch to the fixture.
 
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Old 03-26-05, 04:58 PM
R
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You did not wire the switch properly. You have a neutral wire connected to the switch, and when you turn on the switch the breaker trips.

Now for the bad news. If this circuit has no ground wires then you have an unsafe situation. I would never install track lighting without a properly grounded circuit, there is too much metal exposed and I would not chance a problem.
 
  #4  
Old 03-26-05, 06:14 PM
itsmike29
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At the wall switch I have a white/black/green - all 3 wires are connected to the switch. Its labeled TOP in front and I have the black on top and white on bottom and green to green. That wire is 14/2 BX (I think) and runs about 25' to my new square box that I put in the ceiling. I attached the old garage light black to black and white to white - no green on that fixture so I attached the green to the box itself. Also from this same box I have a 6' piece of BX that I attached the white and black (same as the white black from the wall switch) and that piece runs to my ceiling outlet again attaching white to white and black to black and green to the silver box in the ceiling that the outlet is housed in.

Does that help? I tried switching white/black at the switch and I found it odd that the light still is on in the down position for the switch but when I flip that switch on I can hear the burst and the breaker pop.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense but obviously I have no idea what I am doing and my wife wont let me pay to have someone add lights to my basement so here I am

If I need something other than what I have please let me know what else to do.

Thanks for your time and for helping me

Mike

If it would help I could get some digital pictures - let me know
 
  #5  
Old 03-26-05, 06:45 PM
J
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You say that at the ceiling you connected black to black and white to white. But how many black wires and how many white wires are at the ceiling, not counting the wires from the fixture itself, and not counting any wires you may have added.
 
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Old 03-26-05, 07:41 PM
F
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I would suggest you buy a book at any home center on elementary wiring and see how to wire a light-with-switch circuit.
 
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Old 03-26-05, 08:02 PM
R
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I am still not sure exactly how these are wired, but I do know that you attached both the hot and the neutral to the switch, which is wrong. In the setup you have. the switch is not doing anything but creating a dead short (when turned on) between the hot and the neutral. And of course swapping the wires on the switch has no effect. A dead short is a dead short, and it makes no difference which way the electrons flow.

If all you have at the switch is the black and white (plus the ground) then you need to create a switch loop. A switch loop means that at one place you will have a white wire connected to a black wire.

However, I agree with Fred, by a book (and I recommend Wiring Simplified), so that you learn what you need to do.

And I echo my previous statement. Even properly wired with the wires you have, without a ground this installation will be unsafe. Please properly ground this setup so that you don't electrocute yourself.
 
  #8  
Old 03-27-05, 07:39 AM
J
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I think you have this.
power to the light, 14/2 from light to receptacle. 14/2 from receptacle to the switch. You can't switch the light with this setup. You can only switch the receptacle.
If you want to switch the light and not the receptacle you need 14/3 from light to receptacle or you need to move the switch cable from the receptacle to the light fixture.
You have also miswired the switch loop. Tell me how you intend to fix the cabling and I will tell you the connections. You will actually have a white and black connected together.
 
  #9  
Old 03-27-05, 09:13 AM
itsmike29
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Where would be the obvious place to connect the black to a white? At the light itself?

From the outlet in the ceiling there are 3 black and 3 white - 2 of each come and go in the conduit and 1 of each go to the outlet. I added my black and white so now there are 4 of each color in the screw nut - I think this is where the problem is.

As for the ground, if I attach all the ground wires to the metal boxes am I grounded or is there something more?
 
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Old 03-27-05, 09:22 AM
R
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I am still unsure of the layout of the boxes. Please try again to describe what order the boxes are in.

As for the ground, the only way to ground this circuit is a ground wire all the way back to the panel, unless by some change the existing wiring is run in conduit and the conduit provides the ground.
 
  #11  
Old 03-27-05, 09:53 AM
J
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Mike, you are correct. The wiring mistake is at the ceiling. You have four black/white pairs:
  1. The power supply (P).
  2. The cable to the switch (S).
  3. The cable to your new track lights (L).
  4. The cable supplying downstream power elsewhere (D).
Your first task is to positively 100% identify which cable is which (although it isn't important to know the difference between P and D). Once you have identified the cables, make these connections at the ceiling:
  • Pb to Db to Sw to receptacle brass screw.
  • Pw to Dw to Lw to receptacle silver screw.
  • Sb to Lb.
That's all there is to it. Of course all the usual caveats apply (no more than one wire under a screw, don't use backstabs, remark Sw with a black marker, connect all grounding wires together).
 
  #12  
Old 03-27-05, 11:39 AM
itsmike29
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Originally Posted by John Nelson
Mike, you are correct. The wiring mistake is at the ceiling. You have four black/white pairs:
  1. The power supply (P).
  2. The cable to the switch (S).
  3. The cable to your new track lights (L).
  4. The cable supplying downstream power elsewhere (D).
Your first task is to positively 100% identify which cable is which (although it isn't important to know the difference between P and D). Once you have identified the cables, make these connections at the ceiling:
  • Pb to Db to Sw to receptacle brass screw.
  • Pw to Dw to Lw to receptacle silver screw.
  • Sb to Lb.
That's all there is to it. Of course all the usual caveats apply (no more than one wire under a screw, don't use backstabs, remark Sw with a black marker, connect all grounding wires together).
That did it At the light box I connected the Sw to the PbDb and then the Lb to the Sb. My PwDwLw were already connected. I grounded everything to the conduit/boxes.

When the switch is off, the light is off. When I turn the switch on, the light goes on and my breaker doesnt pop and I am VERY happy.

Thanks for your help, to those who actually helped. Its people like you that make sites like this work. Responses like "Buy a book" and "You have something wrong, fix it" are just not right for someone trying to do it themselves.

Mike
 
 

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