240V electric dryer outlet - confused

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  #1  
Old 05-17-05, 10:34 PM
fatty44
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240V electric dryer outlet - confused

I just wired in a 240v electric dryer outlet. I used two 10g wire feeds which would equal two black 10g, two white 10g & two ground 10g wires. I i'm wiring a 4 prong outlet for the dryer. I have wired the two black wires to a standared dual 30amp breaker which was used previously for a 3 prong electric stove. And I have wired the two white wires to the netural/ground harness in the elctrical box. The 2 ground wires weren't needed cause I used one of the white wires for my grounding wire. Is it ok to wire both the ground & the netural wire to the netrual/ground harnes in the electrical breaker box?

I have pluged in my bran new dryer, confirmed the dryer plug was wired correctly. It beeped to indicate it was on, and I felt a tingling when I touched the rear vent of the dryer. I unplug'd the dryer, checked the wiring again & everything looks good. I plug'd the dryer back in & now nothing works on it?

Did I wire the ckt correctly with the ground & the netural wires tied into the netural/ground harness in the electrical breaker box? Or is that totally wrong? Would that have fried the electronics in my new dryer?

Or do I just have a faulty new dryer?
 
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  #2  
Old 05-18-05, 05:30 AM
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You did not wire this correctly. You cannot (by code) use a white wire as the ground wire. You should not have used two cables for this. Go to the store and buy the proper cable, which would be 10-3 with ground.

Now as for your problem. When you connect the new cable, make sure that none of the wires are accidentally touching in the receptacle. At the panel connect the ground and neutral wires to the proper busses, which may be the same one. Take your cue from where other ground and neutral wires are connected. Then make sure that dryer is properly set up for a four wire connection.
 
  #3  
Old 05-18-05, 06:21 AM
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fatty44,

Yes, rac is correct as you should have run 10-3 w/G but since you did not it sounds to me like you may have your terminations in the panel in too far and could possibly be touching something energized. Rac is correct in that you really need to check your plug and make sure you wired it correctly and that you did not strip off too much jacket and wire inside the plug possibly touching another terminal.

In future electrical issues try coming here and posting before and we could have set you straight on the correct wire to use.....Thats what we are here for...
 
  #4  
Old 05-18-05, 07:37 AM
fatty44
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thanks for the help. Yes, I should have found this website first. My problem is I've already put up drywall and painted, so I have the exsiting wires ran.

The other problem is I tied both the netural & the ground wire side-by-side on the netural/ground buss in the breaker box, is that ok? Or should I have grounded the ground wire to the metal electrical box the wires go into in the basement before running through the flex tub to the breaker box? Or should I have tied the netural wire to the netural buss & the ground wire to the ground buss... even though the busses are connected at the top of the breaker box? The reason I ask this is because on the 4 prong dryer outlet, it sez to make sure you wire the ground & netural to the correct locations, but the two hot wires can be reversable. Well, why would you need to make sure the ground & the netural wires are connected to the correct location on the outlet if they run to the same place in the breaker box? I hope some of this is making sense.

When the breaker is on, I have a tool that indicate if there is voltage or not by beeping, and with the dryer plugg'd in I get the beeping all the way to the back of the dryer. So the dryer is getting voltage to it, but it isn't turning on?

I will check the connections on the outlet plug and in the breaker box to verify the connections aren't touching any other locations.

 
  #5  
Old 05-18-05, 08:28 AM
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The neutral and the ground should be connected at one and only one place in your electrical system. In most home setups this is usually the main panel. If the two bars in your main panel are electrically connected and there are neutral and ground wires connected to each, then this is the location where that connection is made.

Make sure that the two hot wires are electrically connected to a proper 240 colt breaker. Use an analog multimeter to measure the voltage between them at the receptacle. You should get 240 volts. If you get zero volts then you donít have a 240 volt breaker, or you have the breaker installed improperly depending on your panel. Is this breaker twice the size (width) of your 120 volt breakers?

Now to address your incorrect wiring. What you have is not up to code. What you have may be dangerous. You should correct it, and chalk the extra work up as a learning experience. This could come back to haunt you when you try to sell the house. If I were buying a house and noticed this mistake, I would become leery about what other much more serious electrical mistakes could exist.

However, you will most likely ignore my advice and leave what you have in place. To make this installation as safe as possible, run the cables next to each other for their entire run. This should include using the same point of entry into your circuit breaker panel. I would even go further, and use one cable's black and white as my hot feeds, and use the white of the other cable as the neutral feed for this circuit. I would properly connect both ground wires and use them as the ground. The extra black wire I would cap off on both ends.
 
  #6  
Old 05-18-05, 09:44 AM
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From the looks of your post I'd say it's wired 'correctly'. The wire colors are another matter, but how you hooked things up should be working.

I'd say check all of your connections. These guys and gals give superb advice. You probably have something touching something else where it shouldn't be.

Why was this 30 amp breaker previously hooked to a stove?

Why didn't you just buy 10-3 with ground to wire up the dryer?

I wouldn't feel comfortable using a white wire for a ground myself. I'd probably leave the 2 blacks as hots, leave one white for a neutral and use a bare for the ground, capping off the unused wires that'll be left (well, I guess not the bare ground).
 
  #7  
Old 05-18-05, 10:56 AM
fatty44
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Originally Posted by Jason R
From the looks of your post I'd say it's wired 'correctly'. The wire colors are another matter, but how you hooked things up should be working.

I'd say check all of your connections. These guys and gals give superb advice. You probably have something touching something else where it shouldn't be.

Why was this 30 amp breaker previously hooked to a stove?

Why didn't you just buy 10-3 with ground to wire up the dryer?

I wouldn't feel comfortable using a white wire for a ground myself. I'd probably leave the 2 blacks as hots, leave one white for a neutral and use a bare for the ground, capping off the unused wires that'll be left (well, I guess not the bare ground).
It is a duplex unit, and the previous owner had his stove hooked up to the other units electricity, stealing from them I guess. The washer & dryer was shared in the basement, so I got a new washer & dryer for the other unit, and I took out the stove wiring from my unit, and I'm using the stove breaker for their dryer cause it is on their electricty. make sense?

I didn't know you could just by a 10-3 wire or else I would have, would have saved me money I'm sure.

My dumb ass cut the ground wires off at the two splice points & at the outlet wiring..... but I'm going to label each wire at all splice points & at the outlet.

another issue is I used both white wires for the ground & netural, so I'm not sure which white wire is the ground & which is the netural, but it shouldn't matter cause I have them both terminated at the netural/ground buss
 
  #8  
Old 05-18-05, 01:09 PM
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If you refuse to replace the wire with the corect cable(10/3) then abandon one of the cable and get a 3 prong receptacle and cord for the dryer.
Also the stove breaker is too large for a dryer. It is likely 40 or 50 amps. A dryer on #10 wire must be a 30 amp breaker.
 
  #9  
Old 05-18-05, 02:05 PM
fatty44
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Originally Posted by joed
If you refuse to replace the wire with the corect cable(10/3) then abandon one of the cable and get a 3 prong receptacle and cord for the dryer.
Also the stove breaker is too large for a dryer. It is likely 40 or 50 amps. A dryer on #10 wire must be a 30 amp breaker.
I don't refuse to replace the wire, I can't replace it. It is already in the wall & the wall is finished. I have the same wires, just 2black, 2white, and 2 grounds, I can't see why the color of the jacket would make the any difference besides down the road when another person buys the place & they don't know about the wiring, which I'm going to label at each junctions so that shouldn't matter.

The stove breaker that was previously in there is a 30amp dual breaker that is used for dryers.

I'm going to recheck all my splice points & the wiring on the dryer cord tonight.

thanks for everyones help!
 
  #10  
Old 05-18-05, 02:19 PM
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10/2 was never code, no matter how you slice it. A dryer always needed a neutral, in the past it didn't need a ground. In any case 10/3 was always required.

Bottom line is this installation will never be legal or code, or safe.
If you use one cable (bl,wh,gnd), the ground will be carrying current. Very bad, very unsafe.
If you use wires from both cables (bl,wh, gnd from one and bl from the other) this is also not to code as conductors for a circuit must be run the same conduit or cable. If someone removes on cable you are left with either hot wires connected to a load with no neutral and ground or the opposite.

Neither scenario is acceptable or safe. Please find an alternative solution to this problem.

I am curious, who told you to run two cables for one circuit anyway???
 
  #11  
Old 05-18-05, 03:01 PM
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Of course you can replace the cable. Yes, you will have to redo your drywall, but consider a lesson learned.

Leaving it the way it is will be against code and is unsafe, no matter how you slice it.

Do the right thing and replace the wire.
 
  #12  
Old 05-18-05, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fatty44
I don't refuse to replace the wire, I can't replace it.
You can always replace the wire. You might have to cut holes in your new wall but you can replace the wire.
 
  #13  
Old 05-19-05, 07:24 AM
fatty44
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Talking

thanks for all the help! I went back through my wiring and found I had connected the ground & netural wire together at the first splice point, rather than connecting them to the outlet wires... ooops.

thanks
 
  #14  
Old 05-19-05, 11:20 AM
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I spoke a while back with someone who sells US made appliances on an international market. He says that while some clothes dryers are manufacturered differently for different markets, some others are manufactured the same for all markets. He said the electronics are run from 230 volts, and the motor can be rewired to either 115 volts or 230 volts. He also described that both the motor and the drum had belt rims of slightly different size so you could just switch the belt position to change the motor to drum speed ratio to adapt to 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz (a few countries that have 230 volts or 240 volts standard do use 60 Hz instead of 50 Hz).

So if the dryer can be re-adapted to plain 230 or 240 volts, then you would not need an actual neutral and could power it with 10/2+G cable. You must then use a NEMA 6-30R receptacle and change the cord to use a NEMA 6-30P plug. A competent appliance service technician should understand what this is about and know if your model is capable of the change.
 
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Old 05-19-05, 01:54 PM
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I have never, ever, seen a domestic dryer for use in the US that ran off straight 240 volts.
European manufacturers would b a different story.
 
  #16  
Old 05-19-05, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
I have never, ever, seen a domestic dryer for use in the US that ran off straight 240 volts.
European manufacturers would b a different story.
Neither have I ... yet. However, this guy described to me the exact particulars in how it could be modified to do so ... if it is one of those models that is manufactured ready to adapt to any market. He did indicate that only two domestic manufacturers did it this was. He named them but I have since forgotten which they were. They were major names. I had asked him about any available models specifically for 240 volts only and 60 Hz, noting the drum speed issue of using one designed for 240 volts and 50 Hz on 60 Hz power and having the drum rotate too fast. That's when he told me how two of these manufacturers do it. He did say the rest are harder to modify, but still could be done by taking an international model and changing the motor pulley to a larger size to account for the faster motor at 60 Hz, and get a slightly shorter belt.

If you are a manufacturer of an appliance and selling your appliance in different markets with different voltage and frequency, it can save you money to utilize any simple solutions to make a single model that can work on any standard. And it really is not hard to do at all. You would have to be working with 230 volt versions of every component in the appliance anyway. Why complicate your manufacturing workflow by having either separate production lines or separate production runs just to handle different voltages, when it can all be done on one. Units can be built nearly to completion before even knowing which market it is going to on a single production line. Then at the last moment, set the motor/drum belt for the target power frequency, attach the appropriate power cord, insert instructions in the appropriate language, and box it up.

Speaking of the power cord ... suppose you do manufacter a dryer that runs entirely on just the 240 volt lines with no connection to the neutral. Would you put a NEMA 6-30P plug or a NEMA 14-30P plug on it? Since almost no one has a 6-30R to plug in to, just go ahead and put a cord with a 14-30P on there. The neutral would simply not be connected to anything internally. So it is plausible to see an appliance that does not actually use a neutral, but has a plug to mate with a receptacle that does have a neutral simply because that is the common type available.

I also asked him about electric ranges. He said he was not aware of US manufacturers making those easy to convert to pure 240 volt, but did say most European ones would work fine, but a few might have minor problems.

I'll see if I can track down which manufacturers were doing this.
 
  #17  
Old 05-23-05, 07:44 AM
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Isn't the reason a dryer needs a neutral because of the light bulb (and maybe timers)? How do any changes to the motor affect that? Unless it uses a 220V light bulb (Does such exist? Is that what they use in Europe?), it seems like you still need a neutral. Am I missing something here?
 
  #18  
Old 05-23-05, 08:00 AM
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Not all dryers have light bulbs. The cheaper models have none.

The 120 volt components of a typical dryer include the drum motor and the timer, plus the light if one is present.
 
  #19  
Old 05-23-05, 11:46 AM
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Modern dryers have electronic logic that probably involves a power supply to provide low voltage. The light could run from that. Low voltage bulbs tend to have a stronger filament, which would be a good thing in a dryer.

Other things, like the motor and timer drive (if the timing is not electronic) could just as easily run from 208-240 volts by series wiring dual windings instead of parallel.

Having any load run as a 2-wire load instead of as a 3-wire load would be fewer things to go wrong, and less wasteful of power.
 
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