Need to add outlet for welder...suggestions.

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  #1  
Old 06-11-05, 03:42 PM
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Need to add outlet for welder...suggestions.

I am thinking about getting a welder and will need to add another outlet for it. Here is the one I'm looking at.

THUNDERBOLT XL AC/DC 225

I believe these are the power requirements for this welder:

Thunderbolt ®XL225 AC/150 DC
230 V, 50/60 Hz. (Includes 5 ft power cord w/230 V plug)

I'm assuming it's 230v and 50 amps...??? I took some electrical classes in the Military and am fairly confident I can do this myself. I read here on the forum that the breaker and wire should be selected based on the specific piece of equipment that it will be feeding. My question is, what gauge/type wire should I use and what type of breaker would I get. I understand that the hot bar would provide 120 to a single pole breaker and 240 to a 2-pole breaker, but what determines the amperage going through to the receptacle...the breaker? Thanks for the help....
 
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  #2  
Old 06-11-05, 04:45 PM
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From what you have shown here a 50 amp curcuit would be fine. You need 6 guage wire.

To answer one of your questions - what determines the amperage going thru the recepticle is the item you have plugged into it. It will draw exactly what it needs. What the breaker does is to insure that there is no more than a set amount of amperage flowing. So this 500 amp breaker will allow up to 50 amps to flow in the curcuit.

For a 220 volt outlet you will have two hot wires and a neutral. There may also be a ground - you need to look at the prongs on the plug - if there are 3 you have no ground, if ther are 4 you do have a ground - count on there being one though.

Your ground wire will go the the ground bar, the neutral to the neutral bar, and one hot wire from each pole of the breaker. There are several different types of 220 volt outlets out there, so the best thing to do is if you have take the plug to your local Lowes/Home Depot they can show you exactly which one you need, and which screw each wire should go to. You will have two hot screws and it does not matter which hot wire goes to which one, but the neutral and ground wires do need to go the right place, although that is still easy to do.

By the way you should be able to get a 6 guage bundle cable that will have all 4 wires in it like a big extention cord. This will make it easier to run as you will only have one cable to run.
 
  #3  
Old 06-11-05, 06:27 PM
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Not quite correct. There is always a ground. There is probably not a neutral wire.

The type of wire to run is determined by local codes and by where the wire has to run and/or on how you run it.
 
  #4  
Old 06-11-05, 06:39 PM
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Racraft is correct. I have never seen a stick welder which needed a neutral and this one is no differrent. If it did the input voltage would have been: "120/240vac", not just 230v.
 
  #5  
Old 06-11-05, 07:13 PM
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You have yourself one darn good welder. If you look at the specification sheet on the miller link it states that the input amperage is 47.5 amps at max output. So you need two #6 awg copper Thhn conductors and #10 ground wire. No neutral is needed as stated previously.
 
  #6  
Old 06-11-05, 07:25 PM
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Right, no neutral. There are a couple of factors about wire for this machine. Is this a wire thats going to be in the wall or piped or a recept attatched near the box or how far is it going to run. That machine requires a 50A circuuit with a minimum of number 10 wire. (actually allow number 12 but the recept is listed for minimum of 10) Before you guys scream look at 630.11 But, this makes it a welder circuit for this machine and not a general purpose 50A circuit. I always look at wire size for these circuits and never hook up a new piece of equipment and assume anything about it. Hooking a pottery kiln to it would cause a fire as it runs continious. Following the code minimums are not good for home use but number 8 wire is plenty good for these machines. This machine uses a 6-50-R recept.
 
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Old 06-11-05, 07:36 PM
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Here you can find anything you want to know about this machine, a forum similar to this one. http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/ Here is the owners manual for this machine. http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o316q_mil.pdf
 
  #8  
Old 06-11-05, 07:37 PM
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Good catch....afterall this is an "arc" welder. For some reason that went right by me. You have to consider the duty cycle and multiply the primary amperage by the correct factor.
 
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Old 06-11-05, 07:50 PM
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Thanks Rodger, I am current with wiring specs for most of these machines. I do have a gripe with the way they write some of the manuals. The machines are marketed more and more to the Home/hobby/DIY crowd and they spec them for someone who has a through understanding of code/nema specs. If you notice they allow a 12 ground which would be legal if you didnt breaker it over 50A but then you see a 70 max breaker allowance and a 10 wire size min. You could run 10 up to 60 I believe and if you went to 60 you would need a 10 ground. The Hobart handler 175 comes with 6-50-P on it but the manual shows 14 wire with 12 ground and 30A breaker. Clear as mud,,, but it means that with the min wire size the 30 is the limit, 12 or above you can use 50 and this machine is allowed to be used on common 50A welder circuits. The machine does have a number 12 cord. Lots of them are about as confusing.
 
  #10  
Old 06-11-05, 08:07 PM
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thanks for clearing up the amps question i had, makes perfect sense now. Regarding the 230v...would i still just set this up for 240v and it would pull the necessary 230 or do i need to do something different there?

I can either install the outlet under the breaker panel or on the adjoining wall about 10 feet away...whichever would be best. I am assuming the closer the better?

Yea i jumped over to the welding section of this forum and a lot of people recommended that welder...up until then i was gonna get one of those cheap ones from harbor freight but found out that would probably be a waste of money...so I'm gonna have to save up for this one...
 
  #11  
Old 06-11-05, 08:22 PM
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230 volts is just a nominal voltage usually associated with welders and other equipment. 230 is wired the same as 240 or 220 single phase voltages. You will have one of these voltages just depends on what voltage your utility is bringing in to service your home.
 
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Old 06-11-05, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sberry27
....Before you guys scream look at 630.11 But, this makes it a welder circuit for this machine and not a general purpose 50A circuit........... Hooking a pottery kiln to it would cause a fire as it runs continious. Following the code minimums are not good for home use but number 8 wire is plenty good for these machines.....
This is why I NEVER use or quote Art.630 for home use. I have had this argument a few times with another "person" on a different board. He insisted it is perfectly safe and basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about.
I have a real problem with the fact that Art. 630 does not have a stipulation that is is for commercial use only.

In a home who is to say what the next guy, or even the wife of the guy with the welder, will plug in there. Even if you put a nice laminated label "Welder Use Only" on the receptacle, do you think it will prevent anyone from plugging in their nice new kiln???
 
  #13  
Old 06-11-05, 08:47 PM
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how would the distance from the outlet to the breaker play into this?
 
  #14  
Old 06-11-05, 08:56 PM
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Distance affects voltage drop, but for 240-volt circuits it isn't usually an issue until you get out at least 150 feet. A difference of 10 feet is so small as to be meaningless (even more meaningless if you use #8 or #6 wire). Install the receptacle as close as you can to where you will normally use the welder.
 
  #15  
Old 06-11-05, 10:13 PM
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So i would be ok in using this:

GE 50 Amp, Double Pole 1" Circuit Breaker

and then use a #6 wire for all connections?
 
  #16  
Old 06-12-05, 07:48 AM
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If you are going to run individual wires run 2 6's and a 10 for a ground, so much easier with the smaller ground wire. 10 is good for ground to 60A. With the 6 do a nice job of pre-bending the conductors so they lay in the box without putting a lot of stress on the recept when its installed. You can come right off the panel with an offset nipple, short conduit to a 4x4 box, makes for a nice install. I dont recall how well 6's fit thru a 3/4 offset, they will go thru 3/4 emt though. I personally like 8 for this install. So much easier to route the wires. These large wires are good for this istall and the minimums allowed by the mfg are way too light as these machines will run way past their duty cycle although they almost never get ran wide open. I have ran mine 3/4 open inn a cool garage as fast as I could put electrodes in for an hour on a couple of occasions but in a home shop that isnt likely to happen. The machine you got is very good, identical to a Hobart Stickmate, the Hobart is a bit cheaper though, only difference is the paint. They have a great arc especially considerig the cost and are VERY reliable. I have machines that cost near 10 times as much and dont know if I could tell the difference if pressed to do so. My little one is a Lincoln but its all I use for sticks in the shop. http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...chmentid=11273 There is a pic.
 
  #17  
Old 06-12-05, 07:51 AM
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There are some welder pics on this site I think. http://www.urkafarms.com/Welder_Index.htm This pic is a wire feed one but a skilled operator can make them with the Thunderbolt also. http://www.urkafarms.com/Welder_Pict...art_wire_3.JPG
 
  #18  
Old 06-12-05, 07:59 PM
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sberry27 how do you like your stick welder? Still trying to decide if I should get the stick or the mig. The stick has a lot better price tag on it and if i end up getting the miller it will be a while before i can save up the $$$ for it, but will wait if it would be a better deal...
 
  #19  
Old 06-12-05, 08:49 PM
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The Hobart Stickmate is cheaper, you can get them off the shelf at TSC stores, exact same machine as the blue one. Hobart and Miller are the same company but all their other models except for this one have differences, they are marketed a bit differently though. The choices with welding machines depend on what you want to do with it, each type has its issues thats why I link you to Hobart forum. The whole range is covered there, thousands of posts. For light home work a small MIG may be better, more suitable for light matls. If you are doing logging equipment the stick is more suitable especially if it is dirty. In our shop the MIG's are the workhorses, I wouldnt be without stick machines but we do all the work with mig we can.
 
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