Adding 220v outlets, need someone to check my work.

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  #1  
Old 07-02-05, 09:37 PM
Jim-o
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Adding 220v outlets, need someone to check my work.

I am adding (2) 220v outlets in my garage. One for a welder, one for a stove (powdercoater). Each outlet has their own wiring( 6/3 romex) and own breaker since the stove is 50a and welder is 25a (says 21a peak on the welder).

The main box is on the outside of the garage. The wiring runs from inside the box, into the wall, and to the interior wall (garage) where it is mounted as an outlet. Total wire length, 3 feet for each outlet. I have the wiring as red/blk as the 2 hots and white goes to the middle pole of each outlet and to the ground screw inside the main breaker box.

The wiring coming out of the welder is black/green/white. I have white/blk as hot, and green as ground/center pole. Other than checking what i've said to see if it checks out, my main question regards the wiring inside the drywall. There is insulation in there and I was unsure if I need to run conduit so that the 6/3 won't get too hot and light the insulation. I don't know what's code so I'm unsure if the wire is fine on its own or if it poses a fire hazard. Thansk for any input.

Jimmy.
 
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  #2  
Old 07-03-05, 05:56 AM
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Did your 6/3 cable have a ground wire? Your need a ground wire and two hot wires. From your description you wired two hot wires and a neutral, but no ground.

If you don't have a ground wire then you have a code violation. Go to the store and buy the proper wire. Use 6/2 with ground for the stove and 10/2 with ground for the welder.

No conduit required with NM cable (unless it is specifically required in your area of the country)..
 
  #3  
Old 07-03-05, 10:26 AM
Jim-o
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Yes, the 6/3 had white/red/black and a ground wire. We had the white wire going to the screw inside the box. I thought that was the ground? ie, I thought by running the white wire to the screw inside the main breaker box, we were grounding it.

edit: I just rechecked the main box. There are 3 wires coming from the pole, 2 of them go to the meter and breakers. The other goes to a long horizontal strip across the top. We have the red/blk going to the breaker and the white wire going to this horizontal strip. There is another set of screws ont he right side of the box that all the grounds are run to. It appears we should run the ground there.

By running the white wire the horizontal strip, what am I accomplishing? We thought that was the ground but since it goes to a wire on the pole, I assume not.

edit #2, after reading some more, it seems I have a seperate neutral bar and ground bar. So, the white wire is run to neutral horizontal bar, and I will run the ground wire to the bar on the right where other ground wires are run.

My question is now...If i have the ground wire grounded, where does it run on my actual outlet? There's only 3 spots which are currently white/red/blk.
 

Last edited by Jim-o; 07-03-05 at 11:37 AM.
  #4  
Old 07-03-05, 12:45 PM
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A white wire is usually a "grounded conductor" (neutral) and sometimes an "ungrounded conductor" (hot). A bare wire is a "grounding conductor". Both the "grounded" and "grounding" conductors are connected to the power company's neutral wire in the panel housing the main disconnect, but they are separate and serve separate purposes once they leave that panel.

Since you have both a black and red, you have no need to use the white wire as a hot for your welder. For units like your welder that need no neutral, you should use the black and red wires as hot (connected to the black and white wires from your welder), and not use the white wire in your 6/3 (you could have saved some money by buying 6/2 rather than 6/3). This is all assuming of course that your welder is a 240-volt welder.
 
  #5  
Old 07-03-05, 04:24 PM
Jim-o
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My welder is 240v, it has green/white/black wires. I have green as neutral/ground and white/black as hot. Everything I read said to buy 10/3 or thicker so I did, no big deal.

Does the stove plug need to be wired the same as the welder plug with the neutral being optional like you say?
Please explain why I don't want to hook the white wire up?
Also, am I doing any harm by wiring it up like I have?

Right now it's...6/3 in the main box with white going to the neutral bar, bare ground going to the ground bar, red and black going to the breaker. Then, the wall plug for the welder has white as the center pole, and red/black as the hot wires (bare ground not hooked up inside the plug).

What is the point of hooking the bare ground into the main box, without connecting it to the wall plug for the appliance?

Thanks for all the help,
Jimmy
 
  #6  
Old 07-03-05, 04:42 PM
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The welder needs no neutral. The green wire is just a grounding wire. It does not serve as a neutral. It must be connected to the bare wire in the 6/3 (by connecting that bare wire to the center connector on the receptacle). You don't want to connect the white wire to the welder for three reasons: (1) it's unnecessary, (2) it's a code violation to use a white wire as a grounding wire, (3) it'll confuse the next person to come along.

Some stoves need a neutral and some not. You'll need to check the specs for yours.

What is the point of hooking the bare ground into the main box, without connecting it to the wall plug for the appliance?
There's no point at all. That's why you absolutely must not do this. You must connect the bare wire to the receptacle.
 
  #7  
Old 07-03-05, 05:31 PM
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Jim just thought I would drop in and spend sometime to see if I can make things more clear about the ground and neutral. I'm not going to go into a bunch of theory just some practical explanation. First thing to understand is the white wire is a current carrying wire. The ground wire is a non-current carrying wire. It is more commonly called in your situation the "Equipment grounding conductor". It is there for safety and only carries current in the case of a electrical fault to ground. Lets take your stove first. One of the first things to know is....is it only 240 volts (usually cooktops or wall ovens) or is it 120/240 (usually a range, where oven and cooktop are same unit). The white wire in your 6/3 cable would be used on the range because a neutral is required in order to provide 120 volts. Without it you cant get your 120 volts. That white wire is in this case a neutral (current carrier)and provides for the 120 volts. It also carries the unbalanced current but thats another story. Your welder is only 240 volts it doesnt require 120 volts so it needs no neutral. It just needs the two hot wires from opposite legs in the panel (very important) and the green ground wire. This is the reason for the double pole breaker in the panel. The stove also has a double pole breaker.......only if it needs 120 volts and 220 volts you have to run the white neutral wire in the circuit to make this possible. I think you are confusing the ground and neutral as the same because they are connected in the panel. It does get confusing for the homeowner because the white wire can be a hot wire, a neutral or a grounded leg. Thats why it is critical that you know how to wire the white conductor based on the electrical needs of the circuit and equipment and not confuse it to be the same as ground.
 
  #8  
Old 07-03-05, 05:40 PM
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Nice explanation Roger.
 
  #9  
Old 07-04-05, 12:12 AM
Jim-o
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Originally Posted by Roger
One of the first things to know is....is it only 240 volts (usually cooktops or wall ovens) or is it 120/240 (usually a range, where oven and cooktop are same unit).
It has a range and oven. ie, 4 burners and an oven. I've always just called it a stove so I wanted to clarify. Where would I look to make sure it is 120/240, the sticker on the side of it with the electrical specs? What term should I look for? I don't have the owner's manual.

The white wire in your 6/3 cable would be used on the range because a neutral is required in order to provide 120 volts. Without it you cant get your 120 volts. That white wire is in this case a neutral (current carrier)and provides for the 120 volts. It also carries the unbalanced current but thats another story.
let me see if I understand everything correctly...

Wire the welder with blk/red as hot and the bare ground wire as the center pole..do not use the white wire at all since it is only 240volts and appliances that are only 240 do not need a neutral wire.

The stove, since it has burners and oven, wire as red/blk hot and white as neutral, not using the bare ground wire at all.

The welder has the bare wire going to the grounding strip in the main box while the stove has the white wire going to the neutral strip in the box.

sound right?

I think you are confusing the ground and neutral as the same because they are connected in the panel. It does get confusing for the homeowner because the white wire can be a hot wire, a neutral or a grounded leg.
Yes, I had no idea what the purpose of the neutral wire was because I'm used to 12v car wiring where *everything* has a ground, a power, and sometimes a signal wire. I'm not used to a wire that can change its use depending on application.

Thanls for all the help, that was a great explanation, Roger.

Also, does the wire with no conduit really pose no threat to starting an electrical fire inside the drywall with insulation? For some reason I see those metal screws on the outlet lighting the insulation, but I don't know enough to guess if that's really possible.
 
  #10  
Old 07-04-05, 02:06 AM
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Most of the time the timers and light bulbs in the range/ovens use 120 volts.
You may need the neutral to power the timers and lights at 120 volts
Look at the power terminals sometimes you will see the two Hot lines the white line and ground.
Describe the terminals and colors of the wires.
Also look for a name plate with the voltage and wattage requirements.
What is the name and model numbers ?
 

Last edited by GWIZ; 07-04-05 at 02:16 AM.
  #11  
Old 07-04-05, 08:13 AM
Bob33
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Question:
Since whites and grounds both go to the same busbar, what difference does it make if an appliance or motor has both a white and a ground connected to the "chassis" of the appliance/motor? Wouldn't the ground be unneccesary in some situations but never a danger in all situations?
 
  #12  
Old 07-04-05, 01:49 PM
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Jim lets take a look at your stove first. From your description it appears to be a range and I'm betting it is 120/240. Calling it a stove or range is really irrelevant. Understanding its voltage requirements and wattage rating is what counts. The stove has a nameplate on it somewhere. On that nameplate in the voltage block it will say 120/240 or just 240. If it lists slightly different voltages dont worry about it. If the stove/range is older it may have a 3 wire cord and plug. This was because before 1996 the neutral and ground were allowed to be shared on range circuits using only a 3 wire cable and no seperate ground. You can no longer have this arrangement in your situation because you must run a new circuit at todays code standards which is 4 wire (hot,hot,neutral and a seperate ground). If your range only has three prongs on the existing plug then you will need to convert it to a 4 prong range cord. See this link..
http://www.american-appliance.com/se...dryer_cord.htm
They use a dryer as an example but your range is the same procedure if you discover it needs this done.
I also noticed you asked if the ground wire is used on the range. YES..it is used. All 4 wires of the 6/3 have their place. If you dont have a place in the range receptacle for a ground termination then you have purchased the wrong range receptacle. Note: 6/3 cable means three current carrying conductors and a fourth wire for your ground. It maybe green or bare but it is NEVER a white wire. You need to have a 4 wire range receptacle and 4 wire range cord for your application. This is assuming of course your range is cord and plug, almost all are.
Lets talk about the ground (aka equipment ground conductor). If you follow the green or bare ground wire up the cord of a 4 wire range cord you will notice it is terminated on the frame of the range. At the receptacle it joins with the ground wire of the circuit feeder cable which runs back to the grounding bar in the panel where it terminates under a set screw. This whole grounding circuit serves as a saftey outlet in case of a short to the metal frame of the range. It NEVER should carry current unless there is a electrical fault to the frame of the range. Now lets say a one hot wire shorts, for whatever reason, to the ranges frame. If the ground wire wasn't attached to the frame then your range just became energized at 120 volts. If you walk up and touch the frame you are going to get a shock possibly fatal. But because the ground wire is attached to the frame when the short occurs it allows the current to have a low resistance path back to the panel. This in turn allows for the inrush of current created by the short to flow thru the circuit breaker and it will trip out. Effectively deenergizing the circuit.
Now Bob 33 asked what difference does it make if the ground and white wire are connected to the frame. Remember the white wire is a current carrier. It can kill you just as well as a hot wire!! If you connect the white wire (used as a neutral in this case) to the frame you just energized the frame of that range!This is why the 3 wire circuits are no longer allowed because of the risk of being shocked with that arrangement.
Your understanding of the welder is correct. Personally, I believe I would change that cable to a 6/2 since it is a welding circuit. It will avoid confusion and it is such a short run the cost isnt a factor.
You dont really have any risk of the insulation catching fire running cable through the walls as long as the conductors are sized for the ampacity of what they serve and the correct circuit breaker is used.
Since your circuits are originating in the main panel the neutral and ground bars are bonded. Some panels have only one grounded bar and both whites and bare or green grounds terminate on it. Some have two bars but it is a matter of design only. This is true unless you are dealing with sub-panels.

One last thing..whew...because you are confused about ground and neutral, you maybe thinking that the current flows to ground when it returns to the panel. This is a common misconception in AC vs. DC circuits. The current in AC systems travels out the large service neutral wire attached to the neutral bar and returns to the center tap of the transformer. Very little current is ever present on the grounding electode conductors connected to your water pipes and ground rods.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-04-05 at 10:39 PM.
  #13  
Old 07-04-05, 03:50 PM
Jim-o
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Roger,
I could not find any sticker on my stove but I did remove the back panel. I found that the wiring is 3 wire with the 50 amp, 3 prong plug, and the stove was assembled in 2000. It does have the ground strap like the 3 wire systems pictured int he link you posted.

It looks like th eonly difference between a 4 wire cord and a 3 wire cord is that the 4 wire uses the extra wire to attach to the frame directly, instead of using a grounding strap. Am I correct?
 

Last edited by Jim-o; 07-04-05 at 04:02 PM.
  #14  
Old 07-04-05, 05:35 PM
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Jim you have a 120/240 range with the wiring setup you describe. You are correct in the differences in the cords. Most important thing is you want to remove that metal strap from the neutral terminal of your range. When you remove your 3 wire cord from the range just take the strap loose where it attaches to the frame (not the wire terminal) and bend it back onto the wire terminal with the other end of the strap. It will just be looping back on itself and not fastened to the frame. Or just remove it entirely. It is this metal strap that is causing the sharing of the ground (frame of range) with the neutral white wire. This is what is no longer allowed. Then bring in your new four wire cord, connect the white wire to the center terminal with the metal strap that you bent back on itself or removed. The two hots will connect to the terminals on either side of the white wire or center terminal. It doesnt matter which The green wire you will run to the frame as the link shows. You now have effectively isolated the neutral from ground. Then install either a flush mount or surface mount range receptacle to your wall and wire up your feeder cable to it. Most range circuits now days use 6/3 with ground and a 50 amp double pole breaker.
Jim would you mind posting the make and model of your welder and what type of welder it is? ie Arc welder, wire welder etc.. I would like to look up the specs on it to be sure of your breaker size. If you have the instructions it should give you this information. It is possible you wont need 6 awg wire but only #10 awg for the welder.

Note:If your range was new in 2000 it probably was set up for a 4 wire range cord. It was converted to the old 3 wire because it was being used on a "existing" range circuit. Code allows for this if the circuit is the correct SE type cable. All new circuits must be 4 wire.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-04-05 at 05:50 PM.
  #15  
Old 07-05-05, 12:12 AM
Jim-o
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Input: 230V, 60 Hz, single phase; Welding current range: 30-120 amps; Duty cycle: 15% @ 115 amps; Draws 15 amps @ 230V; Max. open circuit voltage: 36V; Weldable wires: .023", .030", and .035 steel or stainless steel; .030" and .035" aluminum; .030" flux core

On the welder itself it says it draws a max of 21 amps. Probably on the highest setting on initial strike.
 
  #16  
Old 07-05-05, 01:41 AM
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Who makes the welder ?
Do you have a model number ?
 
  #17  
Old 07-05-05, 08:44 AM
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The metallic suface of Armored cable is an approved Equiptment Grounding Conductor, Art.250.118, (8).

If the Wiring Method to a range was Armored Cable, and the Grounded circuit condutor ( Neutral) was Bonded to the metal frame of the appliance and to the Equptment Grounding Conductor ( the metallic cable) , a parallel path for Neutral current would be formed. Should a break occur in the Neutral connection, the Neutral current-load of the appliance would be conducted thru the metallic surface of the cable armor.This condition is eliminated with the Neutral "Ground-isolated".

For EXISTING Branch-Circuits, the Neutral conductor can be used as the Equipment Grounding Conductor for Grounding the frames of ranges and dryers if the "execption" requirments of Art 250.140 are satisfied.
 
  #18  
Old 07-05-05, 11:20 AM
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Jim this is a MIG/Flux core wire welder. They usually, at 230 volts only, require #10 awg wire or smaller. Could you give us the make and model# so we can be sure of its requirements.
 
  #19  
Old 07-05-05, 01:32 PM
Jim-o
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http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=6271

Does it matter that I have 6/3 instead of 10/3? I figured a thicker wire would insure less resistance/voltage drop.
 
  #20  
Old 07-05-05, 01:50 PM
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No it wont matter, 6 awg is ok, just didnt need to be that large. You will just cap off the white wire. I was more concerned on the breaker size....what were you planning on using? If the 21 amps is the input amperage then that would give us what we need to know. Thats what I wanted to verify with the name and model#. It appears from the specs you gave us that it has an input of 15 amps at 230V. I would breaker it with a 20 amp double pole. Sometimes terminating 6 awg on a twenty amp breaker is difficult because some breakers dont accomodate that gauge of wire. You could drop down to 10 awg or even 12 awg if you like. 15 amps is the max for 14 awg so I would not drop below 12 awg for this welder.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-05-05 at 02:25 PM.
  #21  
Old 07-05-05, 03:03 PM
Jim-o
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On the welder itself it says it peaks at 21 amps at the highest setting, I am using a 25amp double pole breaker.
 
  #22  
Old 07-05-05, 03:06 PM
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Ok Jim....I'm not familiar with a welder that makes that statement "peaks at 21 amps" if that is an input amperage then I would say fine with the 25 amp breaker but if you cant get clarification I'd go with a 20 amp and see if that holds without tripping out. If you stick with the 25 amp breaker just make sure you dont go smaller than 10 awg.

FYI: Duty cycle is calculated on a 10 minute time period. A 15% duty cycle means that you can weld for a minute and a half continuously at max output amps or a factory specified amperage (in your case 115 amps output) before the welder overheats. It is calculated .15 x 10 min.= 1.5 minutes. You then must let the welder cool for 8.5 minutes. 1.5 plus 8.5 equals ten minutes.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-05-05 at 07:32 PM.
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