GFCI neutral grounded

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  #1  
Old 07-08-05, 12:31 PM
njpatriot1
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Unhappy GFCI neutral grounded

Hope someone can help. Im installing a 60 amp gfic breaker (w sub panel). The breaker trips. I disconnected the neutral wire (white) and the gfci DOES NOT TRIP. This means the Neutral is grounded. What must I do to correct this. thank you in advance..
 
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  #2  
Old 07-08-05, 12:40 PM
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What are you going to use the sub panel for ?
most of the time the neutral bar is floating in the sub panel.
 
  #3  
Old 07-08-05, 12:40 PM
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Did you connect the circuits neutral wire to the GFCI breaker?

Are the neutral and ground properly isolated at the sub panel?

Have you tried the breaker with the sub panel main breaker turned off?
 
  #4  
Old 07-08-05, 12:58 PM
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This sounds like a spa sub-panel? If so I think Bob has it with the gfci being incorrectly wired.
 
  #5  
Old 07-09-05, 03:12 AM
njpatriot1
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yes it is a spa sub panel.. there is a 60 amp breaker in the main box, which leads to the sub spa sub panel.. thank you
 
  #6  
Old 07-09-05, 03:13 AM
njpatriot1
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yes i turned off the sub panel breaker, then turned on main breaker- the sub panel breaker then clicks off...
 
  #7  
Old 07-09-05, 03:16 AM
njpatriot1
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in the spa sub panel .... yes the white neutral is connected to the bar with the white pigtail from gfci,, the ground to ground bar,,,

could it be that in the main breakers the neutral is on the bar with grounds? (i think it is anyway- ill re check)
 
  #8  
Old 07-09-05, 05:39 AM
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We need a better picture of what you have.

Where is the GFCI breaker. What load do you have on that breaker? ow many ground/neutral bars do you have in the sub panekl, and is the neutral bar isolated from the subpanel box and the ground bar?
 
  #9  
Old 07-09-05, 06:34 AM
njpatriot1
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the gfci sub panel is mounted about 35 feet from main panel. the sub panel is a cutler hammer 60 amp spa sub panel with gfci,,

the sub panel has seperate neutral and ground bars,,,

i connected the white wire (neutral from main panel) to the bar in the sub panel that has the gfci pig tail... then grounds to ground bar,

could it be my house main panel has neutral and whites connected on the same bar (older style panel- 10 years old)
 
  #10  
Old 07-09-05, 07:37 AM
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You need to remove the neutral of the circuit going to the spa (load side of gfci) and connect it to the gfci not the neutral bar. This is what Bob was saying earlier in a post. Does it look like this diagram in the link below? The neutral doesnt connect with the red wire but a lug underneath in the photo ...look at the right hand diagram for more clarity.
http://www.emeraldspa.com/wire.htm
 
  #11  
Old 07-09-05, 08:53 AM
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I still don't know where the GFCI is located. Yes, it's in the sub panel. But are you trying to feed the sub panel through the GFCI? Does the sub panel have a main breaker?

At the sub panel you have four wires from your main panel. You connect the neutral wire to the neutral bus. You connect the ground wire to the ground bus. You connect the two hot wires to the breaker (non-GFCI) that controls the panel (if there is one) or you connect it then to the main lugs for that panel.

The GFCI is used to protect the wires that feed the spa.

Your main panel and the fact that the ground and neutral are connected there) has nothing to do with this setup. The ground and neutral should be connected together there.
 
  #12  
Old 07-09-05, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by njpatriot1
yes i turned off the sub panel breaker, then turned on main breaker- the sub panel breaker then clicks off...
I see where you going Bob, I must have read right by this part.
 
  #13  
Old 07-09-05, 12:04 PM
njpatriot1
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the sub panel contains only the gfci breaker that is used to power the hot tub,,, the spa panel is power by a breaker in the main panel...

the power from the main panel goes into spa panel,,, attached to lugs- 220v

when i power the spa gfci breaker- it shuts off immediately..

according to the gfci cutler mammer directions...

troubleshooting,,, GFCI trips immediately,,,
disconnect the neutral wire from gfci and reset,,, if gfci does not trip, the neutral wire is grounded
 
  #14  
Old 07-09-05, 12:14 PM
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So you have the same set up as the link I posted shows? Do you have the 2 hot wires from the main panel connected to the line terminals of the gfci and the 2 hot wires going to the spa connected to the load terminals of the gfci? Everything else as the diagram shows? If you do then describe how you connected the wires at the spa itself.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-09-05 at 12:29 PM.
  #15  
Old 07-09-05, 12:58 PM
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How are the wires going from the subpanel to the spa connected to the GFCI breaker? Only the ground to the spa connects to the ground bus in the subpanel, the two hots and neutral all connect to the GFCI breaker (i.e., the neutral to the spa does not connect to the neutral bar in the subpanel).
 
  #16  
Old 07-09-05, 01:38 PM
njpatriot1
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aaaa,, neutral for both supply and to spa connect to the gfci? i have the neutral from the power source connected to the bar,, the neutral to the spa to the gfci white lug,,,,
 
  #17  
Old 07-09-05, 01:44 PM
njpatriot1
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currently, the spa side goes only to safety pull out, not even fully wired to spa...... is not connectd to spa...

i have as follows

from main panel

white to neutral bar
red to gfci breaker lug
black to other gfci breaker lug
ground to ground bar..

from spa- but with safety to out

white to gfci (under pig tail
red to output side of gfci
black to other side
ground to ground bar

if i disconnect the neutral from the nuetral bar (from main panel) the gfci stays on,,, if the neutral is connected it pops off immediately,,,
 
  #18  
Old 07-09-05, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by njpatriot1
aaaa,, neutral for both supply and to spa connect to the gfci? i have the neutral from the power source connected to the bar,, the neutral to the spa to the gfci white lug,,,,
No... the neutral from the supply connects to the neutral bar in the subpanel not the gfci> What do you mean wired to a safety pullout? You have another disconnect after the spa panel? Humor me and disconnect all the wires from this saftety pull out keep them apart from each other and then turn on the gfci and see if it holds.

The fact that your disconnecting the neutral at the main panel and the gfci holds is telling me you have a small leakage of current flowing on the neutral and causing the gfci to trip. When you disconnect the neutral that stops the current flow and it holds.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-09-05 at 02:36 PM.
  #19  
Old 07-09-05, 02:35 PM
njpatriot1
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will try disconnecting the safety pull out, thank you
 
  #20  
Old 07-09-05, 03:40 PM
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Does the GFCI trip when the spa wires are disconnected from it?
 
  #21  
Old 07-12-05, 08:26 AM
Duckman_wi
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GFCI Problem with SPA

Since there have been no new postings to this I'll assume he's got it working. Roger gave him a great link on how its suppose to be wired up on the breaker. He may have a main panel, a sub-panel next to the main and then a pull-out near the spa. Hard to tell from his varying descriptions. I'm surprised he broke the ground wire from the main to the spa at the sub panels. In my state the ground must be unbroken all the way from the main to the spa and all wires must be in an approved raceway (conduit), no cable wiring. All metal objects larger than 4" within 5' must be bonded and they really like it if you put in a grounding pad under the spa (in the concrete) and ground rod just to be extra safe. (City code)

In his last wiring description I did not see the Pig-Tail neutral being connected to the sub-panel neutral bar. The fact he said he connected the white from the spa to the GFCI breaker under the pig tail says he should have the right type of breaker. I've seen some people try to install a 220v GFCI on a spa where the breaker was meant for 220V pool pumps. A spa uses one leg of the 220V for the controller (110V) which will trip a 220V pool pump style GFCI since it is drawing current down one leg and not both equally. Does not matter if the pig-tail is hooked up or not and there is no 3rd connector for your neutral wire on those.

If it is still tripping the GFCI then you need to take note to Roger's message on leakage. Try disconnecting all pumps, blowers, ozone, heater... until it stays on. You must have some device somewhere in the system that is getting its return path through ground and not neutral. Also make sure that you connected the neutral at the spa to the proper neutral lug and have not the reversed ground and neutral. Check all nuts and lugs in the SPA pack to make sure they are tight. When I test a system I can simply use my Wiggy voltage tester between line and ground and it should trip the GFCI. Thats just enough current flow leakage to trip one.
 
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