wiring a range 6/4 wire

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Old 08-13-05, 12:13 PM
wolfmanviagra
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wiring a range 6/4 wire

I am wiring a new range. It is a 6 gauge 4 wire cable. I know how to wire the receptacle, but how do I make the conection at the breaker box? Thanks for ay help.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 01:55 PM
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Hello,

In the panel ( Service Box ) you will need to take the White Wire to the bar where all the OTHER white wires are located. The Bare Ground wire will also go where all the OTHER Bare ground wires go.

The Black Wire and Red Wire will go to the (2) pole breaker. Now this could be a 40A ( minimum per 210-19c) or possibly a 50A either way the # 6 AWG Copper can handle it but your manual for your Range should recommend the size breaker you need so check it out first......but if you would like my opinion...go with the 40A 2-pole breaker....Now everyone dont ask me why....))))

Hope this helps.....

Notice: as always when working in a panel...use CAUTION my friend as when you start to work with the netural wire ( white ) and the ground wire ( bare ) you need to make sure they touch none of the live parts in the panel....so always use caution and THINK about your steps before you do them for safety.

Remember it only takes a 1/10th of an AMP to kill... and trust me that wire you are working with...carries alot more than 1/10th of an amp.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 02:43 PM
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Two additional comments.

In your panel the white wires and bare ground wires MAY attach to the same place. In some cases they attach to separate places, but in many (most?) cases they attach to the same place.

Some people like to turn off their main breaker in the panel when they work in the panel. While this doesn't eliminate live power in the panel, it does reduce where it is in the panel. You may need to find battery lighting (a flashlight works well) to see when you turn off the main breaker.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 03:05 PM
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Great Comments RAC.....this is why to keep it simple I asked them to follow the current layout of their panel. If it happen to be a SUB-PANEL then the white wire would go to the exact point where the other white wires are located and the same for the bare...just kept it simple for him is all.

Great Post !
 
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Old 08-13-05, 05:15 PM
wolfmanviagra
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RE: 6/4 range wiring

The receptacle is a 14-50R. It says it is a 50A. The breaker that is already in the breaker box is a 60A 2-pole. Should I reduce this breaker size, or is it O.K.? Also, I have a 20A 2-pole dedicated for a 240V water heater. Would a 240V air conditioner be O.K. to run on this circuit in addition to the water heater?
 
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Old 08-13-05, 05:34 PM
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No, the air con and the heater cannot share the same circuit. It must be an older heater, most new ones use 30A. I would change the breaker to 40 or 50, the internal wiring of the stove may not be designed for 60. If this is a new range it will have the breaker requirements in the owners manual.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by racraft
In some cases they attach to separate places, but in many (most?) cases they attach to the same place.
They must do things differently elsewhere, because a good percentage of homes in my area have a main lug panel inside the house (or garage) fed from a meter/main combo outside.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 06:01 PM
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I agree, It is true the wire itself can handle the 60A breaker but the internal wiring of the range may not be rated for it. Also the rating of the surface mount or flush mount recept has nothing to do with the listing for the range which should be in the manual.

It is fine for the stove to require a 40A circuit lets say and the plug be rated for 50A as stated...BUT you will want to protect the circuit for the rating of the weakest link and possibly in this case it would be the range itself.

In all cases I would not use the 60A breaker.......breakers are cheap so I suggest a trip to the local Home Depot or Lowes and pick up one to fit your range requirements

As for the Water Heater and AC issue.....nope.....JUST SAY NO... you are better off running a dedicated line for the AC. That also must be a small water heater unit as most are 30A units....but regardless the waterheater must stay on its own circuit...nothing else on it.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 06:07 PM
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Garou,

Yes, in this case hopefully they ran (4) wire in those setups....but you know Florida...just kidding.....I love Florida...

Actually the set up as you stated is common in some parts of the country as it so happens up north the disconnects outside next to the meter cab is used in situations where the panel is centrally located in the house and not really a CHOICE type of set up.

Now I do see alot of modular homes being set up the way you describe it as well.....kinda makes it easy since the panels will always be central in location.

Now I may be wrong but I think RAC was refering to the connection of the Neutral and Grounding connections within the panelboard or service panel and was just a way of saying...it could be a sub-panel so be aware...but then my post would have handled that just making sure they put the white wire where the whites are located and the bare to where they are located....either way it would have been connected correctly.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 06:20 PM
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When I commented that the grounds and the neutrals may be mixed (and NOT on separate buses), I did so because I didn't want the original poster (or anyone else) to get confused or concerned because things were not exactly as ElectricalMan stated.

I didn't mean (or want) to confuse anyone.
 
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Old 08-13-05, 07:11 PM
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My post was to merely add a bit of semi-irrelevant information, not to correct anyone.

I can't vouch for other electricians, but when I wire a house with that setup it's done with four conductors. The company I work for always supplies a meter/main and a main lug panel for a new house. This keeps our inventory down a bit and you never end up grabbing the wrong panel cover for a trim.

Personally, I think it's a great setup. It gives you breaker space outside, while keeping the majority of your breakers inside.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 05:57 AM
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RE:Water Heater

Thanks for all the help guys. I am doing a full gut remodel on an 850 sq ft house. This is including all new wiring. The water heater is approx. 5 years old (40 gal). The range is a new range, however it was purchased at a surplus/liquidation store, whom lost the manual (therefore,allthe questions about that). My box consists of a 2-pole 60A (which I will replace with 40A), a 2-pole 30A (running the washer and dryer), a 2-pole 20A (for the water heater, which I will replace with 30A), and 6 20A 1-pole breakers. The fridge and dishwasher will run on 1 breaker, the rest of the kitchen will run on 1 breaker, the bedroom/bathroom is on 1, the front porch is on 1, and theliving room is diveded between the remaing 2.

Can an outlet fora microwave be split off the range? Also, any additional comments regarding the above set-up would be much appreciated.

Just wanting to make sure everything is safe.
Thanks for any and all help.

I am also wanting to add a 240V split A/C system. Any way to do that?
 
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Old 08-14-05, 06:25 AM
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Several comments.

I suggest that you stop what you are doing and read several books on home rewiring, as you are making many incorrect decisions.

Do not put the refrigerator and the dishwasher on one breaker. That is asking for trouble, and trouble you will get.

You need two 20 amp circuits to serve the kitchen counter top receptacles. There can be no lights on these circuits, and nothing else with a couple of minor exceptions. These circuits need GFCI protection.

The bathroom needs it own dedicated 20 amp circuit. Nothing outside the bathroom can be on this circuit. The receptacle in the bathroom needs to be GFCI protected.

You have a 240 volt range. You need a dedicated circuit for that. Run a dedicated 120 volt circuit for your microwave. If it sits on the counter you could plug it into one of the 2 counter top circuits, but that is asking for trouble if you want to use other high current devices, such as coffee maker, electric fry pan, toaster oven, etc.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 07:02 AM
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So RAC here is your statement:

When I commented that the grounds and the neutrals may be mixed (and NOT on separate buses), I did so because I didn't want the original poster (or anyone else) to get confused or concerned because things were not exactly as ElectricalMan stated.

I didn't mean (or want) to confuse anyone.
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Now based on installing the Range into the panel what part of my statment in the original post is incorrect as you stated. In either case if a sub-panel or a normal panel if the person follows the location of the existing neutrals to the bar the are connected to and the current bar that the bare grounds are connected to....explain is either sitution what is INCORRECT about this. Here is my original post

Hello,

In the panel ( Service Box ) you will need to take the White Wire to the bar where all the OTHER white wires are located. The Bare Ground wire will also go where all the OTHER Bare ground wires go.

The Black Wire and Red Wire will go to the (2) pole breaker. Now this could be a 40A ( minimum per 210-19c) or possibly a 50A either way the # 6 AWG Copper can handle it but your manual for your Range should recommend the size breaker you need so check it out first......but if you would like my opinion...go with the 40A 2-pole breaker....Now everyone dont ask me why....))))

Hope this helps.....

Notice: as always when working in a panel...use CAUTION my friend as when you start to work with the netural wire ( white ) and the ground wire ( bare ) you need to make sure they touch none of the live parts in the panel....so always use caution and THINK about your steps before you do them for safety.

Remember it only takes a 1/10th of an AMP to kill... and trust me that wire you are working with...carries alot more than 1/10th of an amp.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 07:10 AM
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Wolf,

You can't splice off circuits as you have stated because they are convient. The circuits you are refering to are dedicated circuits and require their own circuit for usage.

Now earlier you stated the Water Heater was on a 20A breaker.....which I said they are normally a 30A...but in your case if MAY be a 20A breaker and a 12 AWG wire so do not just replace the breaker with a 30A unless you know it is a 10AWG wire feeding the Water Heater...otherwise leave it alone and on the 20A breaker.

You should not try and split your Range to run a Microwave.....and as RAC has said you need to pick up some books possibly from Home Depot and so on on house wiring to better understand you simply can't just split circuits to do the different things you need to add.

If the reason is because of limited space in the existing panel ( which so it is CLEAR....you never said it was a Sub-Panel or Main panel so it makes the neutral or ground bar issue as bought up before not a current issue ) but if you are tapped for space you may need to first look at if a possible service change is needed.

Hope this helps any....
 
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Old 08-14-05, 07:17 AM
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OK, the problem with this post is the assumption is that wolf has a Sub-Panel and a (4) wire setup to the panel meaning he has a seperate neutral and grounding bar.

Guys, nothing in this original post says that and we do not need to confuse him so basically if he follows the Neutral and ground layout in his panel he will be fine.

Garou- your comments are GREAT...we call that a standard sub-panel layout here and I agree I can see it being a nice setup. In fact we do this as well when we have a sub-panel issue which I have to say we did one like that last week but we make our own units up. I did notice that when we price those it was cheaper to get a main disconnect switch and still go with a main breaker panel because for some reason the main lugs panels were a higher cost here.....go figure.....
 
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Old 08-14-05, 08:00 AM
wolfmanviagra
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The panel I am referring to is my main panel. Would adding a subpanel be a solution, or should I replace with a larger panel box with more capacity? What would be the correct (safe) way to go. This is the existing panel that was in the house. Before I aquired the house, they did not have need for so much electrical. There were no A/C, electric range, and only limited outlets. The home is a renovated hunt camp and ALL wiring had to be replaced the panel box is probably not more than 5-6 years old,but was only put in with the previous needs in mind, not my current needs.
Thanks Again
 
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Old 08-14-05, 09:04 AM
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ElectricalMan,

I did not mean to imply that your statement was incorrect.

My concern is that someone would read your statement, look at their own panel and get confused because they have two bars and both of them contain grounds and neutrals. I can easily see someone concluding that their installation may not be correct because the wires are mixed, and not separated, or getting confused because they don't know which of the two bars you meant they should connect to.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 10:31 AM
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RAC,

It is not our responsibility as a forum to speculate on what others may do when in this case eithe way the answer to the persons question would apply to EITHER panel and only leads itself to confussion.

If the person ( or anyone ) takes a POST from a Range 4 wire setup as a meaning to change issues in their own panel then they really need to understand the forum better.

We need to keep it simple in posting Answers to members questions rather than speculating on what someone non-informed may do. It is just that assuming and speculation that can cause problems and hazzards.

The problem Wolf is your original post in on a Range install and only that and when a topic starts to turn to another question confussion can happen. I have been doing this 17 years and no where in my original post do I see where anything would lead someone to changing a setup in their own panel.

We have answered the question regarding the range plug setup. In order to address your panel situation as it pertains to the option to upgrade or not I think you would be better served by starting a new post in regards to this.....this current one is going in the WRONG direction and I am close to closing it.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 10:51 AM
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Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. It's my first time here. Now I know better for the future how the forum works. Thanks for the help, and once again sorry for any confusion.
 
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Old 08-14-05, 11:24 AM
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Wolf,

You are fine my friend and your posts MERIT a response from us and we thank you for your posts and contributions. We are here to assist you rather than confuse you so I will only offer some advice that may get you better answers in the future.

1.) Keep on topic with your post when made, meaning if you ask about a certain thing or issue try to stay on it.

2.) If you find yourself with another important question simply post it as a new topic so that it does not get lost in the replies and helps you get a answer faster and a more specific answer to your questions.

What we want to do is to answer your questions and stay on the question at hand so that someone else coming in does not get confused at what you are actually asking...trust me it can happen and then opinions are bought in that may not be related to the exact question posted.

So......Welcome to the Forum and remember you are QUESTIONS are VERY important to all of us as well as your safety when working with Electricity. We are here to assist you in any way and feel free to post away.

Since your basic question regarding the Range has been cleared up I will elect to close this thread. Please feel free to start a new one in regards to the pending questions.
 
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