New Kitchen Electrical

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  #1  
Old 09-07-05, 05:40 AM
LinT
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New Kitchen Electrical

I am having a new kitchen installed and need to move around a few outlets. When I took out the old cabinets I noticed that the old electrical wires were run on the outside of the wall (the wall is brick) with the cabinets mounted on top of the wires. Is this an acceptable way to run the wires? It is an old house 1957 and the wire is that old "romex" cloth covered. Thanks.
 
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  #2  
Old 09-07-05, 06:50 AM
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Wiring that is exposed must be protected. If the wiring is behind the cabinets then it is not exposed, however it should be protected in some way from possible damage from cabinet screws or nails. How is the wiring protected when it is not behind the cabinets?

Be cautions that you may have other issues to deal with. In 1957 GFCI were not used. You need to provide GFCI protection. You also may need to replace the wire. If the cloth insulation is falling apart, if the wires or the wire insulation is brittle, or if the ground wire is undersized (a common issues with older wiring) or if there is no ground then you will need to replace the wires.
 
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Old 09-07-05, 07:08 AM
LinT
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The wire that is not behind the cabinets is exposed. It is in good condition still. What would be considered "protection" for the wire behind the cabinets? I cant use something too thick because it would effect the cabinets. For the GFCI protection...does that mean using one of those GFI outlets?? Even for the fridge outlet? Thanks so much.

Also, I dont know if this makes a difference but currently there are 2 x 220 circuits. I am going to change 1 into a 110. So the wire is slightly thicker than the usual 110 wire. That shouldnt be a problem? right?
 
  #4  
Old 09-07-05, 07:44 AM
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The wire that is exposed MUST be protected. This is done with conduit. You can use metal or plastic (PVC) conduit, or you can use one of the many commercial types of conduit designed for walls that is designed to be aesthetically pleasing. Wiremold is one such product. The wire behind the cabinets should also be protected, but may be considered protected by the cabinets themselves.

GFCI protection can be provided by a receptacle (one per circuit, properly placed, if the receptacles are wired in series. It can also be provided by a GFCI circuit breaker. The refrigerator does not need GFCI protection.

What are these 240 volt circuits for? If they are really 240 volt circuits, you may or may not be able to use the wire for anything. The wire must be at least 12 gage and must have a white wire, a ground wire and one hot wire.

Your two circuits for counter top circuits must be 20 amp circuits, which means at least 12 gage wire and they must be properly grounded.
 
  #5  
Old 09-07-05, 07:50 AM
LinT
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The only part of the existing wiring that is changing is the 1 220 (240) that is becoming a 110. There used to be a separate stove and oven. I will replace it with a stove/oven combo and put it on the existing circuit. The unused 220 I want to convert to 110 and use it for the fridge and microwave. It has 3 wires (red, white and black) i think. I dont know the gauge but it is thick!
 
  #6  
Old 09-07-05, 07:59 AM
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You cannot use this 240 volt wire for a 120 volt circuit. It has no ground.

Do not put your fridge and microwave on the same circuit. Place them each on a dedicated circuit.

The 240 volt line you want to use for the new stove/oven may not be large enough. Check it's size (wire gage) and the breaker size against the requirements for the new stove/oven.

Please don;t be offended, but you may want to at least consult with an electrician. From your questions you MAY be getting in over your head. Electricity can start fires and kill people.

At the very least, buy and read one or two good books on home wiring. Wiring Simplified is one book that is highly recommended.
 
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Old 09-07-05, 08:07 AM
LinT
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m definitely not offended..thats why I always ask questions first. I was under the impression that as long as I properly labled the coverted 240 wire I could use it. (ie.. properly label the ground wire) Also, none of the existing wiring is grounded.
FYI- i am trying to avoid running new wires because there is no crawl space in the attic.
I appreciate all your advice with this.
 
  #8  
Old 09-07-05, 08:23 AM
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With no grounds you must run all new wires. For safety you should run all new wires. Your microwave needs a grounded circuit for it's electronics.

In theory you might be able to get away with leaving any receptacles that are not being moved, but I doubt it. It sounds like you are doing a major renovation, and a major renovation requires that you bring the kitchen up to today's code. Believe me, with older wiring this is something you want to do. You want the safety and capacity that new circuits and new wiring will provide.
 
  #9  
Old 09-07-05, 08:37 AM
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I have to second racraft's suggestion of consulting with an electrician. The kitchen is the most heavily regulated room in the house electrically speaking, so there are a lot of important rules to follow. It would really be impossible to list them all here, because many of their applications are situational. It will be well worth your money to talk to an electrician who can physically look at your kitchen and decide what is required.
 
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Old 09-07-05, 12:49 PM
LinT
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cant I ground the 3rd wire back to the neutral bus bar? If none of the outlets in the house are grounded..how else would you ground them? thanks again.
 
  #11  
Old 09-07-05, 12:58 PM
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While connecting the third wire to the neutral bar and using it as a ground would work electrically, it would violate code. Donít do it.

You donít need to concern yourself with the rest of the house right now. There is nothing wrong with ungrounded receptacles, except that they donít have a ground. Since you are remodeling the kitchen, you must bring it up to code.

Regarding the other ungrounded circuits in the house, only concern yourself with those in locations where you need to plug in a three prong cord. These locations would include places where you have appliances (such as washer, gas dryer, refrigerator and freezer) and locations where you have electronics such as computers. For these locations you can either separately ground the receptacles, or install GFCI receptacles. Then when you eventually remodel those rooms in the house you can rewire them back to the panel.
 
  #12  
Old 09-07-05, 03:13 PM
Sparky375
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By reidentifing the wires for the 240v ckt he could legally use it for the 110 ckt but putting both the fride and micro on same ckt is not a real good idea
 
  #13  
Old 09-07-05, 07:51 PM
adamt12
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i was also told by a licensed electrician that if i label my 220 wire with the red lead as a ground, that it would be acceptable.
Does a ground have to be an exposed wire? why shouldnt one leg of the wire work as a ground?
 
  #14  
Old 09-07-05, 08:27 PM
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i was also told by a licensed electrician that if i label my 220 wire with the red lead as a ground, that it would be acceptable
You've got to be kidding me! That's not an electrician used to doing residential work, is he? Either that, or you and he had a very large misunderstanding.
 
  #15  
Old 09-08-05, 10:17 AM
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Nec 250.119(b)

Actually, a cable is allowed to be re-identified as an EGC under certain situations.

250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors. Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section.

(B) Multiconductor Cable. Where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, one or more insulated conductors in a multiconductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be permitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding conductors at each end and at every point where the conductors are accessible by one of the following means:

(1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation or covering green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation or covering with green tape or green adhesive labels
This clearly does not apply here with a residence, but I'm just saying it is allowed under some conditions.
 
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