Garage Plans Questions; Suggestions Wanted; Long Post

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  #1  
Old 10-14-05, 09:07 AM
d2frette
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Garage Plans Questions; Suggestions Wanted; Long Post

Good morning everyone -

* DISCLAIMER * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This is a long post. I have a few questions embedded,
and I'd also like to hear suggestions.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Thanks for reading this!

- Dave


I am moving into a new house soon (new construction)
and I am making plans for the garage to start. It has
a 2 car garage with an attached 3rd bay which is set back
about 5'. The house will be ready in about 3 weeks
(give or take).

I would like to use the back of the 3rd bay as a mini-shop,
and use the rest of the garage as a temporary shop when I
move the cars out of the garage. Our 3rd car is a 1975 Jeep
CJ 75. It's short in length, so I'll have room full-time
for my table saw near the back. I will use the far side
of the 3rd bay as cabinets.

I would like to post my plans (in jpg format), but I don't
have a website to post them. If someone would like me to
email/PM me, I can email the plans to them if they can post
it for me. (fyi, 1 jpg, 280K)

Before I begin, I refer to some things like my table saw
as 220 Volt. Is that right? Or is it 240 Volt?

Here are the basics of my future garage/shop:

EDIT #1: I have a 150A main. I will be installing a 100A subpanel, and
will run all new circuits off the sub. The sub will also provide
power to: a sprinkler system; a lot of seasonal lighting; and front-yard
and back-yard decorative lighting (such as lights into the trees,
driveway lights, etc). /END EDIT#1/


* LIGHTS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
- 9 canned lights over the 2 bay garage, with 5 on one switch
and 4 on another. The switch is located adjacent the door
entering into the house (entry door).

- 6 canned lights over the 3rd bay, with a 3-way switch near the door
on the 3rd bay and the other near the entry door.

- 4 canned lights along the far side of the 3rd bay, where counters
and cabinets will be installed. This will provide for extra
light, which is so nice to have when working at night, and
will keep shadows to a minimum.

- 1 other canned light in a 4'x5' notch for the fridge. A dedicated
fridge circuit already exists. I believe it's only 15A. I may
be able to use this circuit for this single light, but for
calculations I'll assume I can't and will therefore account for
it in my new demands.

-> TOTAL LIGHTING ->
CIRCUIT #1 - 20 lights. On a single, 20A circuit, I have
120V * 20A = 2400W.
80% of 2400W = 1920W.
1920W / 20 fixtures = 96Watts/fixture.
Does that work out ok? If I want 100W/fixture, I'd have about
83% utilization, which is more than 80%. Can I do this? Or should
I remove 1 light from the calculation? I could remove the light
from the firdge area, or I could remove one of the six over the
3rd bay.

What if I bump to a 30A circuit? Won't the wiring be a real
pain? Will I need to use a #10 wire?


* RECEPTICLES * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
-(1) about 6 110v outlets along the cabinets. These will power
tools like miter saws, routers, scroll saws, etc.

-(2) about 6 110v outlets along the back wall of the 2bay garage.
These will power things like shop vacs, small air compressors,
corded drills/saws, routers/miter saws, scroll saws, and maybe
a ban saw if I am lucky.

-(3) about 3 110v outlets near the front conerts.

-(4) about 3 110v outlets on the 3 decorative columns under
the port-a-cochere. 2 lights already exist, I plan to add 1
new light. Directly below each light, I plan to add a recepticle.
The outlets are for corded weedeaters, shop vacs for cleaning
out the cars, etc.
So 3 new recepticles, 1 new light, on an existing circuit.

-(5) about 6 220v outlets in various places for future heavy
woodworking equipment (cabinet saws, industrial planers/joiners)
and my current table saw. Each one does not need to be dedicated,
as the machines won't be running at the same time. I was
estimating that a 30A/220V circuit would be sufficient for
the group.

-(6) a dedicated circuit for 2 outlets, 1 outlet for computer
and 1 switched outlet for a tv. The important thing is the
computer. I don't want anything tripping it's power supply
because it will run automation for decorative/seasonal outdoor
lighting (that will be for next year). The tv will be on a switch.

-> TOTAL RECEPTICLES ->
CIRCUIT #1 - Outlets for (1), (2), (3), and (4). 20Amp.
CIRCUIT #2 - Outlets for (5). 30A, 220V.
CIRCUIT #3 - Outlets for (6). 20Amp. (why not?)

How does one estimate the maximum number of outlets he/she can have
on a circuit? Is there a common estimation of power consumption?
Or is it as many as I would like to have, as long as I keep my
circuit to under 800sf? FYI, it's about a 580 sf garage.


* SOUND * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
- 4 audio speakers over the 2 bay, and 2 audio speakers over
the 3rd bay. All speakers on the same audio feed. They are
connected to a volume and impedence control. The control is
located adjacent the door exiting the rear of the 3rd bay garage,
which leads into the back yard.

* TV, INTERNET, and PHONE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
- TV: RG6 drop adjacent the rear door of the 3rd bay
- INTERNET: CAT6 drop adjacent the rear door of the 3rd bay
- PHONE: CAT6 drop adjacent the rear door of the 3rd bay
- PHONE: CAT6 drop adjacent the entry door


* * * * * *

Am I missing anything? What would you put in your garage? (cars, ha ha, yes I know ).

Thanks again.

- Dave
 
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  #2  
Old 10-14-05, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by d2frette
CIRCUIT #1 - 20 lights. On a single, 20A circuit, I have
120V * 20A = 2400W.
80% of 2400W = 1920W.
1920W / 20 fixtures = 96Watts/fixture.
Does that work out ok? If I want 100W/fixture, I'd have about
83% utilization, which is more than 80%. Can I do this? Or should
I remove 1 light from the calculation?
No, do not exceed 80% utilization of a circuit. One thing to note however is that many can light fixtures are rated at 75W, not 100W so you would be fine if that was the case with your fixtures.

What if I bump to a 30A circuit? Won't the wiring be a real
pain? Will I need to use a #10 wire?
A 30A circuit is not allowed for general purpose lighting in residential wiring. You have to stick to 15A and 20A circuits with #14 and #12 wire respectively, although my recommendation is to use all 20A circuits on #12 wiring.


* RECEPTICLES * ...
Your receptacle plans sound fine; but note that what's more important is the number and location of the circuits than the physical receptacles themselves. If you plan to use many power tools, it may be a good idea to alternate every other receptacle on different 20A circuits at your workbench. That way you have 40A availible within a couple foot reach of where you are working.

(5) about 6 220v outlets in various places for future heavy
woodworking equipment
I think this is a bad idea. Special-purpose circuits should be installed and designed for each large machine you have. Motors in large power tools have special requirements that can only be met by dedicated circuits to each tool. You will waste your money by installing general-purpose 220V circuits that will not be appropriate for future equipment.

a dedicated circuit for 2 outlets, 1 outlet for computer
and 1 switched outlet for a tv.
Sounds a-ok to me.

How does one estimate the maximum number of outlets he/she can have
on a circuit?
As I hinted at earlier, the number of receptacles is far less important than the expected load. As a rule of thumb, I think that about 5 duplex receptacles per 20A circuit is appropriate in a garage. However, if you know that you are using a lot of heavy duty tools at the same time, go with fewer. If the shop will only be used by one person at a time, then you can go with more as you can only operate one or two tools at a time.

* SOUND * ...* TV, INTERNET, and PHONE *
All that stuff sounds fine. Biggest thing to know is that you'll want these lines seperated from power lines by at least a foot, and cross them at right angles if they must cross power lines. Do not run any low voltage cables in the same conduit as power.

Am I missing anything?
Garage door opener circuit(s)? Supplemental heating or cooling for the garage? Dust collection system? Welder? Hefty air compressor? These are the most common garage circuit additions I hear about, plan for dedicated circuits to these machines if you have them.

Some code issues to be aware of: 1) All of your general-purpose 120V receptacles in the garage or outdoors must have GFCI protection from a GFCI receptacle or breaker; 2) there must be a light switch at every entrance door; 3) exposed wiring on the garage walls needs to be protected from physical damage with conduit or armored cable.

Something to consider: incandescant can lights are the most inefficient lighting availible. With as much lighting as you are installing, compact fluorescent, fluorescent or HID will be much more energy efficient if you plan on running the lights a lot.
 
  #3  
Old 10-14-05, 11:13 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by ibpooks
No, do not exceed 80% utilization of a circuit. One thing to note however is that many can light fixtures are rated at 75W, not 100W so you would be fine if that was the case with your fixtures.
I haven't picked them out yet. I like lots of light and am not sure 75W will be enough per light. I'll probably need to do some tests first.


Originally Posted by ibpooks
A 30A circuit is not allowed for general purpose lighting in residential wiring. You have to stick to 15A and 20A circuits with #14 and #12 wire respectively, although my recommendation is to use all 20A circuits on #12 wiring.
I thought not. I don't see a reason to mess around with 15A circuits in the garage. I know myself, that is I tend to overdo things. However, I also tend to do them right and make it so others can use it long after I'm gone.


Originally Posted by ibpooks
Your receptacle plans sound fine; but note that what's more important is the number and location of the circuits than the physical receptacles themselves. If you plan to use many power tools, it may be a good idea to alternate every other receptacle on different 20A circuits at your workbench. That way you have 40A availible within a couple foot reach of where you are working.
...
As I hinted at earlier, the number of receptacles is far less important than the expected load. As a rule of thumb, I think that about 5 duplex receptacles per 20A circuit is appropriate in a garage. However, if you know that you are using a lot of heavy duty tools at the same time, go with fewer. If the shop will only be used by one person at a time, then you can go with more as you can only operate one or two tools at a time.
Actually, I was planning to have about 12 to 15 on the same circuit. I didn't explain myself well. So, I should only have 5 receptacles on a 20A circuit? There will be up to 2 people using tools at one time, either myself and my wife or myself and my neighbor. I'll stick to 5 per circuit, and alternate circuits along the wall. This will greatly increase the number of circuits used in my subpanel. I'll need a big box!


Originally Posted by ibpooks
I think this is a bad idea. Special-purpose circuits should be installed and designed for each large machine you have. Motors in large power tools have special requirements that can only be met by dedicated circuits to each tool. You will waste your money by installing general-purpose 220V circuits that will not be appropriate for future equipment.
Could you elaborate more? Is it because some motors need 30A, others need 40A? Do they need specific types of wire in the circuit? What if I wired them all dedicated, using wire designed for 40A?

Reason: I'd like to tear up the walls as little as possible. If wire is expensive, then I'll hold off. If it's not expensive, I'd rather wire it all now and be done. Once this garage project is over, it's over! I need to move on to other projects and won't get to revisit it for a while.


Originally Posted by ibpooks
All that stuff sounds fine. Biggest thing to know is that you'll want these lines seperated from power lines by at least a foot, and cross them at right angles if they must cross power lines. Do not run any low voltage cables in the same conduit as power.
Yep. The low-vol wiring will go into cheap smurf pipe. They will be at least 19" from the hi-vol wires (studs are 1.5" ea, spacing about 16"). I will not run them in within 2 studs.



Originally Posted by ibpooks
Garage door opener circuit(s)? Supplemental heating or cooling for the garage? Dust collection system? Welder? Hefty air compressor? These are the most common garage circuit additions I hear about, plan for dedicated circuits to these machines if you have them.
Don't have any of those, YET.


Originally Posted by ibpooks
Some code issues to be aware of: 1) All of your general-purpose 120V receptacles in the garage or outdoors must have GFCI protection from a GFCI receptacle or breaker; 2) there must be a light switch at every entrance door; 3) exposed wiring on the garage walls needs to be protected from physical damage with conduit or armored cable.
Codes? I don't need no stinking codes....

1) Actually, I was aware of the GFCI rule. I didn't know I could use either/or. I thought I must use GFCI receptacles. I like the breaker alternative. Less wire to pull.
2) Existing light in the garage is not enough for a shop. But it's enough to meet codes. I will actually have 3-way's for most branches of lights.
3) Since the walls are already drywalled, there is no exposed wiring. I will not be using either condui or armored cable. That will be ok, won't it?


Originally Posted by ibpooks
Something to consider: incandescant can lights are the most inefficient lighting availible. With as much lighting as you are installing, compact fluorescent, fluorescent or HID will be much more energy efficient if you plan on running the lights a lot.
I was concerned about electric bills if I use the shop a lot. CF lighting may work for general cans, as long as they can put out the lumens like 75W or 100W bulbs. As I said, I'll have to do a test before I finalize my plans. Floursecent lighting is yucky, IMO, as it's hard on the eyes after a while. Perhaps that has changed now.
What is HID lighting?

Thanks!

Dave
 

Last edited by d2frette; 10-14-05 at 07:32 PM.
  #4  
Old 10-14-05, 11:29 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: port chester n y
Posts: 2,117
This suggestion pertains to wiring that will extend in a horizontal direction across the studs between the receptacle-outlets , with the purpose of avoiding drilling the many necessary holes in the studs and the concomitant labor involved in routing various types of cables thru the holes.

Fasten fur-strips in the form of 2 X 4's in a horizontal direction across the face of the studs with the 2 X 4's set "flat" on the studs, which will add a depth of 1-5/8" to the walls. Fur the walls to an elevation that is high enough to enclose the receptacle outlet-boxes underneath the highest fur-strip.

You now can route the cables box-to-box across the face of the studs . I suggest two seperate 30 amp,220 volts Branch-Circuits for the 220 volts loads, which can be effected with one 10/3 N-M cable. Be sure to use "deep" 4-11/16" outlet-boxes for the 220 volt receptacles.

If you allow a "wiring-chase" with a dimension of appox 20" between the fur-strips, you can cover the wiring with 1/2" ply, 2ft in width, fastened to the fur-strips with screws. This forms a removable cover for future acess to the wiring.

How do you plane to heat this area? ( just curious )
 
  #5  
Old 10-14-05, 12:44 PM
d2frette
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PATTBAA -

Originally Posted by PATTBAA
...Fasten fur-strips in the form of 2 X 4's ...
That's a great suggestion. Basically adding a 2" wall facade wall. I may wish to make the 2x4"s the other way (tougher to nail) so that I have plenty of room for conduit if I choose to do so. I said I wasn't, but I may change my mind.

I was going to do something similar in the ceiling to that I didn't have to drill holes through the joists. The wires would run parallel to the joists, then drop down into a facade wall which runs perpendicular. I hadn't thought of doing it along the wall for the outlets. That also allows me to leave the insulation - the outer wall is only 2x4's (I'd rather they used 2x6's, but it wasn't up to me).


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
If you allow a "wiring-chase" with a dimension of appox 20" between the fur-strips, you can cover the wiring with 1/2" ply, 2ft in width, fastened to the fur-strips with screws. This forms a removable cover for future acess to the wiring.
A removable cover. I like that.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
How do you plane to heat this area? ( just curious )

Heat? I'm in Texas. I don't need more heat. Winter time can get chilly, but spending 30 winters in Iowa and Illinois has thickened my blood. Perhaps a space heater will be used.

Thanks!
 
  #6  
Old 10-14-05, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
You now can route the cables box-to-box across the face of the studs . I suggest two seperate 30 amp,220 volts Branch-Circuits for the 220 volts loads, which can be effected with one 10/3 N-M cable. Be sure to use "deep" 4-11/16" outlet-boxes for the 220 volt receptacles.

Doesn't the same rule that limits 15A and 20A 120V recepticals to 20A max circuit also limit 15A/20A 240V to a 20A max circuit? If so, the OP is going to have to stick with 20A circuits for these recepticals.

If there will be a drop ceiling, perhaps installing conduit that runs from above the drop ceiling down to empty boxes would be most practical. This would allow circuits to be added where needed, when needed, without damaging the walls.
 
  #7  
Old 10-14-05, 08:13 PM
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One thing I have learned from this forum, when it comes to 220V circuits, is to make sure the breaker and wire is properly rated for that particular piece of equipment. this will properly protect the equipment as well as prevent overheating the wire and tripping the breaker frequently.
 
  #8  
Old 10-15-05, 12:09 PM
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d2Frette can comply with the Code by connecting 30 amp receptacles.
 
  #9  
Old 10-16-05, 10:30 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
d2Frette can comply with the Code by connecting 30 amp receptacles.
Dave works fine, too.
 
  #10  
Old 10-16-05, 10:59 AM
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CORRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I stated that 2 seperate 220 volt circuits could be done with one 3-wire cable- WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Furring the wall to a depth = to the dimension which is = to the thickness of two 2X4's can be done by fastening 2X4 #1 to the studs, then fastening 2x4 #2 to 2X4 #1.

Furring the bottom section of the exterior wall horizontaly to a depth of 3-5/8" would ease the installation of electrical baseboard convectors, with an additional layer of insulation behind the convectors.----( Just "theorizing" )
 
  #11  
Old 10-17-05, 05:30 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
CORRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I stated that 2 seperate 220 volt circuits could be done with one 3-wire cable- WRONG!!!!!!!!!
Not to worry, I don't like the idea of using x/3 wire for 2 circuits (multi-wire circuits?). I'd rather "waste" money and have to seperate wire bundles. I'm less likely to get zapped in the future.
 
  #12  
Old 10-17-05, 02:43 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
Fasten fur-strips in the form of 2 X 4's in a horizontal direction across the face of the studs with the 2 X 4's set "flat" on the studs, which will add a depth of 1-5/8" to the walls. Fur the walls to an elevation that is high enough to enclose the receptacle outlet-boxes underneath the highest fur-strip.
PATTBAA -

Question for clarity: The walls of the garage are drywalled, and maybe even painted - not sure. Should I score out the 3.5" of drywall where the new studs lay horizontally across the existing studs? Should I cut out all the drywall below that? Or should I leave the drywall and screw thru it? That may be easier, but I have a laser level and a rotozip, so scoring out the drywall at a careful depth shouldn't be impossible.

Why 20" high? Is that 4" for the 2x4 on top, 4" for the 2x4 on bottom, and 12 inches in between? Or is that just a coincidence?

Additional details - The wall where this chase would get installed is the outer wall. It has insulation. It also has the main breaker box. Finally, I plan to put cabinets and a countertop against this wall, so the chase would get covered by cabinets. It'd be high enough off the floor to leave room for recepticles above the countertop. Should I just run the whole thing above the countertops? If I did, then I'd cover up part of the main panel, which isn't even permitted or desired, so the run would stop well short of the length I want it to run.

Thanks!

- Dave
 
  #13  
Old 10-18-05, 08:24 AM
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My opimouns:
Lighting:
Do the 3rd bay/shop on one circuit, the other 2 bays on another, outside lighting on a 3rd (if needed). Fit your fridge bay light wherever convenient, except the fridge outlet

GP outlets
At least 7 circuits (GFCI of course):

Two for the shop area (3rd bay), two for the main garage, one for GDOs, one for outdoors, and one for your TV/computer.

For the GFCI, you could use outlets, installing an outlet box per circuit near the panel. That way you could use those 5
or 6 for you lighting automation.

220V outlets:
Evaluate the needs of the equipment. I'd see if you can use 220V 20A outlets to serve them.
Install appropriate outlets for them where they will be used.

I'd get a cental vac and air compressor, but that is just me.
 
  #14  
Old 10-18-05, 09:01 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by classicsat
...Fit your fridge bay light wherever convenient, except the fridge outlet
So, I've heard this before: keep outlets and lights on different circuits. Why? In this case, I'm already over-wiring my garage. A dedicated circuit already exists for the outlet, and I plan to put the light on the circuit for lights anyway, so I'm already gonna take the advice. I'd just like to know the rational behind the thought.

I was hoping to run outlets inside the columns in front of the garage off of the circuit which contained the lights on the columns. Should I avoid this? If so, I guess I'll just forget about the outlets then. I don't want to tear up the overhang of the columns.


Originally Posted by classicsat
...Two for the shop area (3rd bay), two for the main garage, one for GDOs, one for outdoors, and one for your TV/computer.
- Just curious, but why would I need two circuits for outlets in the main garage? It's an average 2 car garage and won't be used for much but housing 2 cars.

- What are GDOs? General D____ Outlets?


Originally Posted by classicsat
For the GFCI, you could use outlets, installing an outlet box per circuit near the panel. That way you could use those 5
or 6 for you lighting automation.
Well, the automation is a little more complicated than that. I already have an outlet in the eaves in each corner of the house (so 4 duplex exterrior outlets). My next step is setting up the SSR's and IC chips to programmatically control the lights. Next year...maybe.


Originally Posted by classicsat
I'd get a cental vac and air compressor, but that is just me.
CVAC: A whole house CVAC? That is exactly what my wife wants, too.
Or, a dust collector, like a Cyclone? I hope to get one someday, but not sure if that will happen in this house or not.

Air Compressor: I have a small, light duty one. If and when the time comes, I'll get a bigger one. My wife likes to work on the cars (lucky me!!), so in time we'll need pnuematic (sp?) tools.
 
  #15  
Old 10-18-05, 09:09 AM
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These suggestions presume that a countertop 36" AFF ( above finished floor ) set on base cabinets will be extended along the exterior wall, and that increasing the depth of the wall behind the base cabinets is not a problem. It should not be necessary to remove the existing wall-finish.

Three 2X4 fur-strips are fastened to the wall, the bottom F-S set on the floor, the middle F-S set 24"-to-center AFF, the top F-S set so that the top-edge of the F-S is 48" AFF.
The 4ft. height of the furring = the 4ft width of sheetrock.

If you fasten 4" outlet-boxes to the bottom edge of the top
F-S, the bottom of the O-B will be 8" below the top edge of the F-S, and 4" above the countertop; 36" CT+ 4" space + 4" O-B +4" F-S = 48". I suggest you use "deep 1900" boxes only. Please not that this plan does not provide a removable section for acess to the wiring.Use "2-hole" PVC straps for fastening the cables to the wall.

If you need to extend cables to the ceiling, the cables can be routed horizontally along the wall to the point where they then extend vertically between the studs to the ceiling.

Obviously, you cannot extend the 4 ft elevation across the front of the panel, so you have to use your ingenuity to ''frame aound" the panel. You may have to connect the new cables to both the top and bottom on the panel, this depending upon the # of un-used "K-O's " available .There are connectors for N-M cable that will accept two cables.

I suggest you attempt to determine the # of "spare" circuit-breaker positions remaining after all the new circuits are connected. In the future, you may need space for a 2-pole C-B for an additional sub-panel.If you are connectiing N-M cables, you probably will need to implace a "Grounding" terminal strip in the panel.

I suggest you indentify, and accurately record in table-form, exactly what is connected to the existing C-B,s before you connect the new circuits.

Good Luck, & Learn & Enjoy from the Experience!!!!!!!!
 
  #16  
Old 10-18-05, 09:12 AM
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So, I've heard this before: keep outlets and lights on different circuits. Why?
There are typically two reasons, only the first of which I like:
  1. When lights and receptacles are on the same circuit, the lights tend to dim when a motor-driven appliance plugged into a receptacle is turned on. This isn't a safety issue, but some people find it annoying. And for a DIYer, it generally convinces your spouse that you screwed the job up.
  2. Receptacle loads are much more likely to trip circuits than lighting loads. So the idea is that if you plug something in that uses too much power and trips the circuit, at least you won't be left standing in the dark.
Unless you have a lot of room in your panel, and don't mind using a lot of wire, it's not always practical to keep them 100% separate, so don't go crazy trying to follow this advice completely.

Just curious, but why would I need two circuits for outlets in the main garage? It's an average 2 car garage and won't be used for much but housing 2 cars.
If this is always true, you only need one. But cars tend to get backed out for large projects, and other things happen in that space.

What are GDOs?
Garage Door Openers.
 
  #17  
Old 10-18-05, 01:48 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
These suggestions presume that a countertop 36" AFF ( above finished floor ) set on base cabinets will be extended along the exterior wall, and that increasing the depth of the wall behind the base cabinets is not a problem. It should not be necessary to remove the existing wall-finish.
I don't have the cabinets/countertop yet. I will do 1 of 2 things.
1 - Build my own garage cabinets to practice making them, or
2 - Build my own kitchen cabinets and move the kitchen ones into the garage.

Originally Posted by PATTBAA
Three 2X4 fur-strips are fastened to the wall, the bottom F-S set on the floor, the middle F-S set 24"-to-center AFF, the top F-S set so that the top-edge of the F-S is 48" AFF.
The 4ft. height of the furring = the 4ft width of sheetrock.

If you fasten 4" outlet-boxes to the bottom edge of the top
F-S, the bottom of the O-B will be 8" below the top edge of the F-S, and 4" above the countertop; 36" CT+ 4" space + 4" O-B +4" F-S = 48". I suggest you use "deep 1900" boxes only. Please not that this plan does not provide a removable section for acess to the wiring.Use "2-hole" PVC straps for fastening the cables to the wall.
It doesn't, but some time well spent in the design stage, plus proper installation will make it less necessary. If the design is straightforward, I will probably install conduit along this wall.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
If you need to extend cables to the ceiling, the cables can be routed horizontally along the wall to the point where they then extend vertically between the studs to the ceiling.
Yep. And that will probably be the general area where the new subpanel will go.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
Obviously, you cannot extend the 4 ft elevation across the front of the panel, so you have to use your ingenuity to ''frame aound" the panel. You may have to connect the new cables to both the top and bottom on the panel, this depending upon the # of un-used "K-O's " available .There are connectors for N-M cable that will accept two cables.
By K-O's, you mean Knock Outs? I assume that is space for additional circuit breakers. But last time I assumed.....

I plan to use a new subpanel for all my additional wiring. I plan to design the whole thing before picking out the hardware. Once the design is completed, I'll buy a panel large enough to accommodate all my circuits plus some. A future homeowner may want a pool. Future tecnologies may demand more power. So, I will be sure to have enough space.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
I suggest you attempt to determine the # of "spare" circuit-breaker positions remaining after all the new circuits are connected. In the future, you may need space for a 2-pole C-B for an additional sub-panel.If you are connectiing N-M cables, you probably will need to implace a "Grounding" terminal strip in the panel.
Hmmm. What technically is N-M cable? It is the cable that comes with a sheath and says NHHM or whatever? Is there some other alternative? How does it require a grounding strip?

FYI. I won't be doing this on my own. Installing a subpanel will require me to ask a friend to help me. He knows what he is doing. He's not a DIY'er.

Originally Posted by PATTBAA
I suggest you indentify, and accurately record in table-form, exactly what is connected to the existing C-B,s before you connect the new circuits.
I won't be adding any new circuits to the existing panel - all goes into a new subpanel. The main is about full, and after using 2 more for the sub, it'll only have 1 or 2 left. However, id'ing what is in the existing panel should be done by the electrician!! If he does not, I'll be adding that to the punch list for the house.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
Good Luck, & Learn & Enjoy from the Experience!!!!!!!!
I will do so. Thanks for the ideas and the tips.
 
  #18  
Old 10-18-05, 01:59 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by John Nelson
If this is always true, you only need one. But cars tend to get backed out for large projects, and other things happen in that space.
Yes. That will happen. However, I can only use one tool at a time. My "plan" for utilizing the 2 car area will be for large, 220V machines. But, I'll stick with the advice, it's been good so far. I'll use 2 20A circuits for the 2 car bay, and 2 20A circuits for the 3rd bay, in addition to dedicated 220V where needed.
 
  #19  
Old 10-18-05, 02:01 PM
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By K-O's, you mean Knock Outs?
He means those round holes in the top and bottom of the panel.

What technically is N-M cable?
Well, "NM" is the technical name. So you must want to know the non-technical term. Most people call is Romex, which is the biggest brand name. Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable comes in three types: NM, NMC, and NMS. Simple NM is what you normally see in homes. The code describes it as a factory assembly of two or more insulated conductors enclosed within an overall nonmetallic jacket.
 
  #20  
Old 10-18-05, 02:16 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
d2Frette can comply with the Code by connecting 30 amp receptacles.
So what would you do? For outlets, would you put in 30A circuits or 20A circuits? I don't think there are too many tools that take 30A on their own (that are 110V). I suppose being able to use a miter saw and a router at the same time might be handy, but 30A recepticles may be overkill.

30A circuits for lighting on the other hand, that would be nice. Is that not possible? Does each fixture need to be rated in order to be placed on a 30A circuit? I wouldn't think so; it doesn't make sense to me why this is not possible.

I'm not even considering 15A.
 
  #21  
Old 10-18-05, 02:19 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by John Nelson
He means those round holes in the top and bottom of the panel.
Ah, well, in that case I should have enough! I will be using a new sub-panel. It will have enough because I won't buy one that won't work for my design.


Originally Posted by John Nelson
Well, "NM" is the technical name. So you must want to know the non-technical term. Most people call is Romex, which is the biggest brand name. Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable comes in three types: NM, NMC, and NMS. Simple NM is what you normally see in homes. The code describes it as a factory assembly of two or more insulated conductors enclosed within an overall nonmetallic jacket.
OK. It's what I thought it was.
 
  #22  
Old 10-19-05, 09:50 AM
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D2Frette;

I admit I am amused by you'r statement---- "I.D.ing the existing panel should be done by an electrician!"

If there is ONE task where an electrician is least needed it is this one!!!! Identifying exactly what outlets are one what breaker can often be tedious and time-consuming, but can be accomplished with ingenuity and throughness and careful planing.Your wife/son/daughter/ girl-friend can assist you.

Example--- a bed-room--- simply plug lamps into all receptacles, remembering some may be switch-controlled,
de-energize the circuit, and record what receptacles go "Off". Use a radio as an "Off" signal--

Example
 
  #23  
Old 10-19-05, 12:37 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
D2Frette;
I admit I am amused by you'r statement---- "I.D.ing the existing panel should be done by an electrician!"
Actually, that's a slight misquote. I said it should be done by THE electrician. Not because I am above it, or because I don't know how to do it, but because I am buying a brand new home. The electrician should have documented everything when he designed the plans. He should at least write a basic description of the room (w/ outlets/lighting) or appliance on the panel door.

Glad you got a chuckle out of it!
 
  #24  
Old 10-19-05, 02:13 PM
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30 amp liting-circuits are confined to commercial/industrial applications.When designing the 20 amp Branch-Circuits for liting, Allow 1.5 amps for each liting outlet with the obvious exception of luminiares ( ha ha) with a rating of 200 watts or more.

As to the issue of 20 vs 30 amp circuits for the 220 volt loads, much depends on the HP-rating of the 220 volt motors.Limit the load on a 220 volt 20 amp motor-circuit to either one 1-1/2 HP motor, one 2 HP motor, or two 1 HP motors.

Perhaps these values will assist you in designing 220 volt motor Branch-Circuits----

3/4 (HP) = 7 (amps) 1 = 8 1-1/2 = 10 2 = 12 3 = 17 5 = 28

What size, in terms of the # of circuit-breaker positions,will you select for the Sub-panel.? A panel can be of any "size" as long as the panel "rating" in amps equals or exceeds the rating of the circuit-breaker that protects the Feeder Conductors that "feed" the panel.
 
  #25  
Old 10-19-05, 03:17 PM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA
30 amp liting-circuits are confined to commercial/industrial applications.When designing the 20 amp Branch-Circuits for liting, Allow 1.5 amps for each liting outlet with the obvious exception of luminiares ( ha ha) with a rating of 200 watts or more..
If I understand things correctly.... Estimating 1.5 amps per light would be equivalent to estimating 1.5*110= 165W fixtures.

No biggie for me. I'll run 4 circuits of lights (2 circuits over the main 2-bay garage, 2 cuircuits over the 3rd bay). I can then install whatever kind of lights I want and be fine on circuitry. It's overkill, but it will meet the needs of any lighting fiend for several years.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
As to the issue of 20 vs 30 amp circuits for the 220 volt loads, much depends on the HP-rating of the 220 volt motors.Limit the load on a 220 volt 20 amp motor-circuit to either one 1-1/2 HP motor, one 2 HP motor, or two 1 HP motors.

Perhaps these values will assist you in designing 220 volt motor Branch-Circuits----

3/4 (HP) = 7 (amps) 1 = 8 1-1/2 = 10 2 = 12 3 = 17 5 = 28
just cor clarity, you are saying given x HP, assume y Amps?
.75 HP -> 7 Amps
1 HP -> 8 Amps
1.5 HP -> 10 Amps
2 HP -> 12 Amps
3 HP -> 17 Amps
5 HP -> 28 Amps

If so, I could wire the recep's for up to 5 HPs if I use a 30Amp circuit. 5HPs will be more than enough! Can I wire all the 220 recep's for 30Amp capacity? I'll never, ever be using a 2 HP cabinetsaw and a 2 HP lathe at the same time. Ever. So, if I have a 2 HP lathe on a 30Amp 220 recep, I'll still be fine, won't I? I'm talking about putting in the wire, not actually hooking up a recepticle.

And, extrapolating that if that were the case, I could use a 40Amp circuit, or 50Amp circuit, to meet my needs.


Originally Posted by PATTBAA
What size, in terms of the # of circuit-breaker positions,will you select for the Sub-panel.? A panel can be of any "size" as long as the panel "rating" in amps equals or exceeds the rating of the circuit-breaker that protects the Feeder Conductors that "feed" the panel.
I will go to Lowe's tonight and see what they have for panels. I am fine with spending the extra money and getting a rather large panel.



I'm off to Lowes!
 
  #26  
Old 10-20-05, 06:37 AM
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It depends on the motor. Series wound universals (common to portable tools) have a different amp/HP ratio, that a split phase motor (common to fixed tools).

IME: (we use a lot of split phase 1725 RPM motors here)
1 HP [email protected] (wired for 240V, 7.3 A)
3/4 HP ~13A
1/2 HP ~10A

As a sule, the 1HP and larger motors are wired for 240V, 3/4 and less for 120V.
 
  #27  
Old 10-20-05, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by d2frette

Well, the automation is a little more complicated than that. I already have an outlet in the eaves in each corner of the house (so 4 duplex exterrior outlets). My next step is setting up the SSR's and IC chips to programmatically control the lights. Next year...maybe.
The outlets on your eaves won't do much for automation, some maybe, but not a lot.

Whenever I read about home automation systems, they sometimes have the SSR banks in their basment or garage, next to a bank of recepricles specifically for them.
OTOH, you could get a system that have an SSR controller board that goes in a weatherproof unit outside. You still should have one circuit for each.
CVAC: A whole house CVAC? That is exactly what my wife wants, too.
Or, a dust collector, like a Cyclone? I hope to get one someday, but not sure if that will happen in this house or not.
I am thinking more along the lines of a shop-specfic system, but one for the house would need its own circuit also.
Air Compressor: I have a small, light duty one. If and when the time comes, I'll get a bigger one. My wife likes to work on the cars (lucky me!!), so in time we'll need pnuematic (sp?) tools.
Yes, and eventially you might want a larger, possibly fixed A/C, preferably away from your wood tools.
 
  #28  
Old 10-20-05, 06:47 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by classicsat
It depends on the motor. Series wound universals (common to portable tools) have a different amp/HP ratio, that a split phase motor (common to fixed tools).

IME: (we use a lot of split phase 1725 RPM motors here)
1 HP [email protected] (wired for 240V, 7.3 A)
3/4 HP ~13A
1/2 HP ~10A

As a sule, the 1HP and larger motors are wired for 240V, 3/4 and less for 120V.
So what about 2, 3, 4, and 5 HP motors, all wired at 220V? I won't be getting anything above that. Will 4HP typically draw less than 30A? That's my burning question. If so, I'll leave wire for dedicated, 30Amp/220V receps for them. I'll cap the wires and be done with them for now. As I get each tool, I'll uncap one set of wires, install an outlet, and connect the wire to the subpanel.
 
  #29  
Old 10-20-05, 06:55 AM
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Look at the plates on the motor.

Oh, our 2HP (real) Air Comp plate says [email protected]
I don't think on most home shop equipment you'd get more than 2.5 or 3 HP, and anything above that, you'd likely be using 3-phase, which the rules change (most of it would be considered commercial, and you'd have an engineer and electrician do all this work for you).

All that said. I don't think you ought to use one big 30A circuit, in fact the NEC likely prohibits it, but probably 3x20A and 2x30A 240V circuits.
 
  #30  
Old 10-20-05, 07:33 AM
d2frette
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Originally Posted by classicsat
Look at the plates on the motor.

Oh, our 2HP (real) Air Comp plate says [email protected]
I don't think on most home shop equipment you'd get more than 2.5 or 3 HP, and anything above that, you'd likely be using 3-phase, which the rules change (most of it would be considered commercial, and you'd have an engineer and electrician do all this work for you).

All that said. I don't think you ought to use one big 30A circuit, in fact the NEC likely prohibits it, but probably 3x20A and 2x30A 240V circuits.
The Delta X5's get up to 5 HP. http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=4740
Because I don't have any yet, I don't know the amps it pulls.
So each tool/device should have a 2x30A?? I plan to install a dedicated circuit for each tool.
 
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